Next Year

[sillent]

So we didn't get what we wanted or expected but definitely what we deserved based on how we played all season.

Trae definitely needed this humbling experience.

Since many of our weaknesses defenss/offense were exposed (team was built on/for commrradory meaning as a fist/one unit & efficiency which we definitely weren't) our team will go thru alot of changes come next season.

If rumors are true our team could look something like this next season 

Starters 

PG Trae Young

SG Miles Bridges 

SF DeAndre Hunter 

PF Onyeka Okongwu 

C Rudy Gobert/DeAndre Ayton

Bench

PG Delon Wright/Sharife Cooper 

SG Kevin Huerter 

SF Kyle Anderson 

PF Jalen Johnson 

C Clint Capela 

 

Bigger with better individual defenders. What do you all think? Who should we keep or how would you build based on free agency and circumstances?

[AHF]

Miles Bridges is a PF, not a SG.  I also have trouble seeing the Hornets let him go.  I am assuming you are trading JC and Bogi but I'm not sure how you are converting that into Bridges and Gobert/Ayton.  Seems like we would need to give up more to make that happen.

[StonedDogs]

The problem will always remain with the coach. If that team was assembled it still wouldn't matter because Nate has no offensive plays or strategy. And he's too old school.

Trae still can't play defense so it's 4 vs 5

Trae still shoots 30 footers like Josh Smith shoots three's. Coaching lets him.

And finally the Hawks just don't run with Trae. They'll get a defensive rebound, give it to Trae and run whatever same play they run all game. Look for alley oop, not there, pass to Heurter, he doesn't want to score. Finally Trae from the logo for the love of God. I hate how this team is ran. Sorry for rant 

[Blunt91]

I do not  know why they don't tell Trae that his first shot of the game doesn't have to be a 30 footer. 

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, Blunt91 said:

I do not  know why they don't tell Trae that his first shot of the game doesn't have to be a 30 footer. 

Trae shoots the 30 footer with about 32% accuracy.  Almost 1 in ever 3 shots going in.   I hate that shot.   Always have hated it.. but I understand it.   Trae has to make himself a threat to hit the long shot to get defenses to respect his outside shooting.   It opens passing lanes.   Otherwise, defenses would just lay back and take away all of our scorers.   And they would play back on the PNR.

I credit Miami... they picked Trae up at 94 feet and double him with a shade once he crossed half court.   That did 2 things:

1.  Took time off the clock.. if it takes longer than 7 seconds to bring the ball up, now you're talking less than 13 seconds to get into a set. 

2.  Took away Trae's ability to stretch the defense.   The defense is already stretched..  Trae's not finding people whoose defender is in transition. 

3.  Forced somebody else to beat them.   - Only Delon was smart enough to attack the basket.  Once Dre' figured out he can score by attacking, he started putting up good numbers. 

The Miami game exploited what's wrong with our team.

1.  Too many shooters.  Not enough slashers/drivers.

2.  Supposed shooters can't shoot with somebody running at them.   - This is Kev... How many times did the ball swing to Kev.. he had an open shot with somebody running at him and he pulled the ball back down. 

3.  Lack of Bigs...  You couldn't have written the post season any better for Miami.  Undersized teams plays Atlanta with no JC or CC.  Plays Philadelphia with no Embiid. 

They say Spo outcoached Nate...  but if you're in a fight with a one legged man, and you trip him and begin to kick him into submission, does that mean that you are a great fighter?   If we were 100% healthy and they were 100% healthy, the game goes differently.  But again, I tip my cap to them for tripping us..

 

 

 

[StonedDogs]

Nate was outcoached. Spo worked Nate team with older, slower, bench players. Nate doesn't even know how to use his bench. Hawks got fleeced from last year act. That's all on GM. There's a reason Nate playoff record is what it is. There's a reason Nate was an assistant coach and that's what he came to accept. He was an assistant coach to a backup assistant coach. If you want the potential to become a head coach come to Atlanta. But if you're a young player (rookie) pray you don't get chosen by Atlanta

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

They say Spo outcoached Nate...  but if you're in a fight with a one legged man, and you trip him and begin to kick him into submission, does that mean that you are a great fighter?   If we were 100% healthy and they were 100% healthy, the game goes differently.  But again, I tip my cap to them for tripping us..

Doesn't make Spo a great strategic fighter.  But he did all the right things to adjust to the man only having one leg.  In contrast, Nate looks bad as the one legged man.  In your analogy, I'd say that one legged man's strategy that is analogous to Nate's stubborn formula is to try to kick him with the missing leg and then to switch to trying to hit him with his weak hand.  The one legged fighter is at a disadvantage for sure but if that fighter doesn't adjust to the loss of his leg and keeps trying the same stuff that no longer works against the defense he is facing that is bad.  If his only adjustment is to do something that is known to be grossly suboptimal (play Trae off the ball), that is also foolish.  

Definitely agree with you that Nate's normal strategy was hurt a ton with Atlanta missing CC and JC (JC missing in the sense that he couldn't play the PnR or PnP game with his injuries) but only Spo made effective adjustments to the state of the teams' roster challenges.

[JeffS17]

I don't think anyone can tell me with a straight face they think Nate is on the same level as Spo, regardless of that series.

[Packfill]

On 5/1/2022 at 11:15 AM, AHF said:

Miles Bridges is a PF, not a SG.  I also have trouble seeing the Hornets let him go.  I am assuming you are trading JC and Bogi but I'm not sure how you are converting that into Bridges and Gobert/Ayton.  Seems like we would need to give up more to make that happen.

Agree with this.  No way JC, Bogi and 16th pick are enough to return Gobert or Ayton, let alone Bridges too.

On top of that, the proposed starting line-up lacks sufficient shooting around Trae.  

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, StonedDogs said:

Nate was outcoached. Spo worked Nate team with older, slower, bench players. Nate doesn't even know how to use his bench. Hawks got fleeced from last year act. That's all on GM. There's a reason Nate playoff record is what it is. There's a reason Nate was an assistant coach and that's what he came to accept. He was an assistant coach to a backup assistant coach. If you want the potential to become a head coach come to Atlanta. But if you're a young player (rookie) pray you don't get chosen by Atlanta

If you trip a 1 legged man... and kick him into submission.. was the fight ever fair to begin with. 

That's not outcoaching SDs... That's the luck of the draw.  Trae didn't have a capable Big... so Miami was able to take their bigs and use them to trap and guard Trae without worry of a lob or a PNR.  That's 1/2 of our offense. 

So if you're Nate.. what do you do?? 

1.  Line the perimeter with our three point shooters and hope that Trae can find the open man? 

Tried that and it leads to more T.O.s for Trae and bad 3pt shooting numbers for our "shooters". 

2.  Have our "shooters" to try to go inside for scores?

Tried that.  It worked some.. but a lot of times, they lost the ball because our "shooters" aren't great ball handlers. 

The one legged man getting tripped.  We couldn't keep them off of the offensive boards.   We couldn't keep them off of the FT line.  IN game 2, they were +15 in FTs.. 29 to 14...  Jimmy Butler built a house on the free throw line.    Why?  Because we didn't have any bigs to protect the rim.  Game 4, Clint played less than 20 minutes and he had 8 rebounds and a Block.  Where was this in all those other games?  In his 2 games playing less than 20 minutes each, Clint led our team in rebounding... BY 2.0+ rpg.   That's a 1 legged man SDs...

 

How can you call it outcoaching when your most available rebounder averaged 5.4 rpg and he played over 20 mpg???

 

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Doesn't make Spo a great strategic fighter.  But he did all the right things to adjust to the man only having one leg.  In contrast, Nate looks bad as the one legged man.  In your analogy, I'd say that one legged man's strategy that is analogous to Nate's stubborn formula is to try to kick him with the missing leg and then to switch to trying to hit him with his weak hand.  The one legged fighter is at a disadvantage for sure but if that fighter doesn't adjust to the loss of his leg and keeps trying the same stuff that no longer works against the defense he is facing that is bad.  If his only adjustment is to do something that is known to be grossly suboptimal (play Trae off the ball), that is also foolish.  

Definitely agree with you that Nate's normal strategy was hurt a ton with Atlanta missing CC and JC (JC missing in the sense that he couldn't play the PnR or PnP game with his injuries) but only Spo made effective adjustments to the state of the teams' roster challenges.

I know it's the envogue thing to pile on Nate and to seek out coaching reasons why he lost.....

But OO averaged 5.4 rebounds per game and he was our highest rebounder in the series save for Clint's 2 games where Clint averaged 7.5 rpg in less than 20 damn mins...  

In the season series, we always outrebounded Miami.  The season series we outrebounded them 47-40.  In the season series, we held them to 8.5 OR per game.   In one game, they had 15 freaking ORs.  How is Nate's stubborn formula responsible for that??   How does he adjust for that?   How does nate's stubborn formula become responsible for Gallo (4 for 15 from three) Kev (9 for 31), Bogi (9 for 26) and Trae (7 for 38).   Is that coaching?  If Gallo misses a wide open three.. that's the coaches fault?

Here's the thing.. regardless of what offensive scheme or who was coaching... our shooters need to hit shots.  Period. 

I don't even know how you can say that we ran Nate's offense.  Isn't his offense start with the PNR?  Didn't they trap the hell out of the PNR so we had to try new things?

No.. the one legged man was lacking what he needed to be in the fight in the first place.  It doesn't mean that he was out strategized... He was deficient.  There's a difference. 

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think anyone can tell me with a straight face they think Nate is on the same level as Spo, regardless of that series.

So I guess last year when Spo was Swept....  It didn't count?  He wasn't outcoached...

Here you go Jeff.

Knowing that we didn't have Clint, we had JC as a shell of himself (couldn't jump or catch), and that were triple teaming Trae, They outrebounded us 45 to 30....   For us to have beaten Spo's Heat 1 game in the series.... means that Nate Outcoached him that game.. right??

 

[JeffS17]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So I guess last year when Spo was Swept....  It didn't count?  He wasn't outcoached...

Here you go Jeff.

Knowing that we didn't have Clint, we had JC as a shell of himself (couldn't jump or catch), and that were triple teaming Trae, They outrebounded us 45 to 30....   For us to have beaten Spo's Heat 1 game in the series.... means that Nate Outcoached him that game.. right??

 

Look to game 5 for all the evidence you need if we're using missing players as excuses.  No need to call out specific playoff runs, just look at their cumulative playoff history of success... or just watch the game and see the adjustments/scheming and how badly Nate gets outclassed.  Are you Nate's friend or family or something, you always defend him unconditionally lol

[Diesel]

42 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Look to game 5 for all the evidence you need if we're using missing players as excuses.  No need to call out specific playoff runs, just look at their cumulative playoff history of success... or just watch the game and see the adjustments/scheming and how badly Nate gets outclassed.  Are you Nate's friend or family or something, you always defend him unconditionally lol

That's such a cop out...  It's easy to be "outclassed" when you're overmatched due to Injury....  The fact that we won a game against the top seeding team in the East and we were missing our starting C and Starting PF (Not healthy) is a feat in itself.. and you want to act as though all things were equal.  Your counterpoint is especially laughable when they can go to the bench and pull out a former ALL NBA Player  (who had gone for 40 in his last game) and we go to our bench and Pull out TLC...  Are you kidding me??  And you think that that is EQUAL??

 

 

[sillent]

JC usually dominates Miami so a healthy JC would've made a difference. The roster constructed above is from our options and speculation.

I personally would've built differently from the start but my question is what do we/would you do now?

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, sillent said:

JC usually dominates Miami so a healthy JC would've made a difference. The roster constructed above is from our options and speculation.

I personally would've built differently from the start but my question is what do we/would you do now?

If I had a shot, 

I would try to get Oladipo.  I would try to bring back Delon.  IF the "rumors" are true and we're definitely getting bigger, I will live with whatever big the Hawks brought in.   #16.. I would go after M. Will out of Duke... or Duren if he last that long but one of those project 7 footers who are rim runners.

 

 

[StonedDogs]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

If you trip a 1 legged man... and kick him into submission.. was the fight ever fair to begin with. 

That's not outcoaching SDs... That's the luck of the draw.  Trae didn't have a capable Big... so Miami was able to take their bigs and use them to trap and guard Trae without worry of a lob or a PNR.  That's 1/2 of our offense. 

So if you're Nate.. what do you do?? 

1.  Line the perimeter with our three point shooters and hope that Trae can find the open man? 

Tried that and it leads to more T.O.s for Trae and bad 3pt shooting numbers for our "shooters". 

2.  Have our "shooters" to try to go inside for scores?

Tried that.  It worked some.. but a lot of times, they lost the ball because our "shooters" aren't great ball handlers. 

The one legged man getting tripped.  We couldn't keep them off of the offensive boards.   We couldn't keep them off of the FT line.  IN game 2, they were +15 in FTs.. 29 to 14...  Jimmy Butler built a house on the free throw line.    Why?  Because we didn't have any bigs to protect the rim.  Game 4, Clint played less than 20 minutes and he had 8 rebounds and a Block.  Where was this in all those other games?  In his 2 games playing less than 20 minutes each, Clint led our team in rebounding... BY 2.0+ rpg.   That's a 1 legged man SDs...

 

How can you call it outcoaching when your most available rebounder averaged 5.4 rpg and he played over 20 mpg???

 

 

You don't think Spo would have prepared for Clint? Having Clint would have maybe given you one game. Ok you lost in 6 games in the first round. 

Nate is not a good coach man. What would you grade Nate in this first full season? In my book he's no greater than Pierce. Again, he's an assistant coach for a reason. He's had his chances and this playoffs showed. Does he develop players? Perhaps he could have had a Clint replacement or better if he could develop and maximize his players on the bench. 

[Diesel]

Just now, StonedDogs said:

You don't think Spo would have prepared for Clint? Having Clint would have maybe given you one game. Ok you lost in 6 games in the first round. 

Nate is not a good coach man. What would you grade Nate in this first full season? In my book he's no greater than Pierce. Again, he's an assistant coach for a reason. He's had his chances and this playoffs showed. Does he develop players? Perhaps he could have had a Clint replacement or better if he could develop and maximize his players on the bench. 

I think  matchup wise, we would have been much better with a healthy Clint and a Healthy JC.   I actually think we would have won in 7.

However, I'm not saying that Nate is great and I'm not saying that Spo is bad.  I think they are both coaches who can get the most out of what they have.   Last year, Nate took a team that LP couldn't win with and did some magnificent coaching.   Yet... he gets no credit. 

Here's my question about Spo... since everybody think he's the cat's meow...  How do you take Lebron, Wade, and Bosh.. IN THEIR PRIMES.. and lose to  Dirk, Kidd, and Terry on the other side of their primes?  Dirk, Kidd, and Terry were all on the brink of retirement and they beat the Heat in 6.  Where was all the great coaching?  Where is the master tactician? The sad part... Nobody on the Heat team was injured.  They had everybody. So you had three Hall of Famers and one player who calls himself the GOAT and people agree with him.. and they lost to some old men?  Isn't this an indictment on Spo's lack of coaching ability??  It's like a chef having Iberico Pork, wagyu Beef Cowboy Ribeye, and fresh right out the water Bluefin tuna from Prince Edwards Island... And messing up the meal.

People won't hold Spo responsible for the 2011 breakdown.  But will call Nate a bad coach because he couldn't get Mediocre teams to the Finals?

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

21 hours ago, Diesel said:

I know it's the envogue thing to pile on Nate and to seek out coaching reasons why he lost.....

But OO averaged 5.4 rebounds per game and he was our highest rebounder in the series save for Clint's 2 games where Clint averaged 7.5 rpg in less than 20 damn mins...  

In the season series, we always outrebounded Miami.  The season series we outrebounded them 47-40.  In the season series, we held them to 8.5 OR per game.   In one game, they had 15 freaking ORs.  How is Nate's stubborn formula responsible for that??   How does he adjust for that?   How does nate's stubborn formula become responsible for Gallo (4 for 15 from three) Kev (9 for 31), Bogi (9 for 26) and Trae (7 for 38).   Is that coaching?  If Gallo misses a wide open three.. that's the coaches fault?

Here's the thing.. regardless of what offensive scheme or who was coaching... our shooters need to hit shots.  Period. 

I don't even know how you can say that we ran Nate's offense.  Isn't his offense start with the PNR?  Didn't they trap the hell out of the PNR so we had to try new things?

No.. the one legged man was lacking what he needed to be in the fight in the first place.  It doesn't mean that he was out strategized... He was deficient.  There's a difference. 

 

I don't blame Nate for us losing the series per se.  The combination of the injuries to CC, JC and Bogi; Trae's struggles; and the inability of our wings to cover (outside of Hunter in Game 5) are all big factors that it would be difficult for any coach to overcome. 

I blame Nate for not doing things in his control given what he had to work with.  By way of one example, when Miami was on a run you call a time out before it reaches a 20 point run.  Compare and contrast how Spo and Nate used their timeouts this series.  That is pure coaching and is largely unaffected by injuries or roster challenges.  

I am grading Nate on a curve in that regard and the issues I see from him aren't all isolated to this series but some of them extend into the regular season as well.  I wasn't impressed with Nate this season either in the regular season or the post-season.  I expect him to be our head coach next season and think he needs to step up his performance next year.

[sillent]

17 hours ago, Diesel said:

If I had a shot, 

I would try to get Oladipo.  I would try to bring back Delon.  IF the "rumors" are true and we're definitely getting bigger, I will live with whatever big the Hawks brought in.   #16.. I would go after M. Will out of Duke... or Duren if he last that long but one of those project 7 footers who are rim runners.

 

 

If we do keep our picks I was looking at Duren myself. I haven't checked out M Will yet