Hawks offensive problems... or is it a problem?

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

This is an issue......

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

I wish Trae would run with purpose or intention, even if the play is not coming back to him.

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

This is what we are doing vs the Zone, smh!

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Dre not passing the ball though.  

 

 

[JTB]

41 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I wish Trae would run with purpose or intention, even if the play is not coming back to him.

 

 

Look at that play again. I’m not trying to make excuses for Trae but either he started too early or Hunter started too late to set the screen. Lots of confusion starting that play ….terrible communication to do a basic floppy screen/action play.

do we blame the players or the coaching staff?…no one looked confident about running that play. Look at the body language….. capela looking like what hell I’m supposed to do ….Collins confused too….

maybe it’s Murray’s fault and he didn’t get them set right….I don’t know but it’s not good.

[Wretch]

9 minutes ago, JTB said:

Look at that play again. I’m not trying to make excuses for Trae but either he started too early or Hunter started too late to set the screen. Lots of confusion starting that play ….terrible communication to do a basic floppy screen/action play.

do we blame the players or the coaching staff?…no one looked confident about running that play. Look at the body language….. capela looking like what hell I’m supposed to do ….Collins confused too….

maybe it’s Murray’s fault and he didn’t get them set right….I don’t know but it’s not good.

I don't like the blame game unless it's 100% obvious. When your players are arguing and fights are getting leaked to the press and your coach doesn't stand up for you in the press... point the finger.

In this case, it's just a matter of we're not the best version of ourselves. It's the coach's job to point this out in practice/film sessions and to make adjustments to get buy in. If that's not happening then it's a coaching problem, chemistry, or both. 

[JayBirdHawk]

47 minutes ago, JTB said:

…no one looked confident about running that play

This is true 

[Wretch]

8 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

This is a carryover from last season.  Some people were emphasizing how our offense was top 3 in efficiency and used that as a platform to preach a stronger emphasis on defense...echoing the mantra "Offense isn't the problem!!!"  Then someone tossed out that same bar measuring us as a bottom of the barrel team in 4th quarter offensive efficiency.

The problem is "scoring when it counts." It's not just in the 4th quarter.  This applies to every key basket the Hawks have to make from tip to close.  The defense KNOWS what's coming, they scheme for it, and we have no answer.  Some people will blame Trae.  Others will say it's specific ball stoppers.  If you're on a Facebook Hawks group, they'll tell you it's Cliff Cabella or JC's contract.

The real problem is that we run the same <shizzle-dizzle> on the first possession that we do on the last one.   We don't make an adjustment and they know what's coming: Rayford Trae Young is coming for that ass.  They know it and they know dude can get an open 30 footer, a floater, or a layup pretty much any time he wants - and if they blink, he will lob it between their ears for JC or Capela to flush it. 

On every clutch basket, they're waiting on it.  They know it like a batter up 3-0 in the count knows what pitch is coming.  But instead of using Trae's gravity to throw them off, we do the literal thing they expect us to do.  Every time.  Or worse...we let someone else on this team not named Dejounte do something or we let Dejounte take a turn doing what Trae does.  Sometimes Trae, Dre, or Dejounte just makes baskets.  Sometimes, they don't and we come in here and blame Trae. *shrug*  The net result is the 50/50 win basket we find ourselves in now.  In the playoffs, the net result is a 2nd round exit.

That's it.  Don't @me.

[Expedite]

On 10/25/2022 at 4:38 PM, Diesel said:

 

I would say that if there was a problem with the offense, it would be spacing.  The bottom line is that we miss Bogi right now.  Not for the first team but for one of our 2nd teams.  

 

On 10/25/2022 at 4:38 PM, Diesel said:

The lineup of Trae, Holidaze, JJ, and Clint is not one that we should put on the floor a lot because of spacing.  Yall won't say it but I will.. JJ kinda sucks. He's athletic but he does nothing for our floor spacing.  Makes us long for Gallo.   That lineup will have Trae with Low percentage shooting. 

On the first team, DJM and Hunter (when he feels like being aggressive) helps our spacing a lot because we have movement.   The thing is we should be twice as potent because both DJM and Hunter has nice midrange games.   We have gone away from the 1-5 PNR.   Strange, that use to be our bread and butter.  Unfortunately for now, we will go how Hunter goes.   I believe that if there are signs that Hunter is playing aggressively, those will be the games we win.  When he goes into his shell, those will be the games we don't win (for now). 

I heard a lot about OO's jumpshot this summer.  Thus far, he seems to be the same guy he was last year. If he could drain some Frank the tank shots, it would be so meaningful for our second unit.

Somebody has to help Trae with spacing so we wait for Bogi Leader of the Horde to get back right.

 

 

 

I'm very new to basketball.  I attended the Celtics vs. Hawks game at State Farm Arena in Atlanta on November 16, 2022, and that was the first time I ever watched an entire basketball game in my life.  I was hooked!  Very entertaining.

I've been reading this message board ever since that game thirteen days ago, and a lot of the jargon you people use here confuses me.

Diesel, when you say that "if there is a problem with our offense, it would be spacing", do you mean that if there is a problem with the Hawks' offense, it is that the Hawks players bunch up too much together near the basketball hoop? 

Then you say that on our first team, DJM and Hunter helps our spacing a lot because we have movement.  Do you just mean that DJM and Hunter move away from the basketball hoop more than other players, or are you saying something deeper than that?

Please elaborate.  

P.S.  I have only watched one complete basketball game in my entire life.  So please be understanding of my ignorance. Please be gentle.

 

 

 

 

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, Expedite said:

 

 

I'm very new to basketball.  I attended the Celtics vs. Hawks game at State Farm Arena in Atlanta on November 16, 2022, and that was the first time I ever watched an entire basketball game in my life.  I was hooked!  Very entertaining.

I've been reading this message board ever since that game thirteen days ago, and a lot of the jargon you people use here confuses me.

Diesel, when you say that "if there is a problem with our offense, it would be spacing", do you mean that if there is a problem with the Hawks' offense, it is that the Hawks players bunch up too much together near the basketball hoop? 

Then you say that on our first team, DJM and Hunter helps our spacing a lot because we have movement.  Do you just mean that DJM and Hunter move away from the basketball hoop more than other players, or are you saying something deeper than that?

Please elaborate.  

P.S.  I have only watched one complete basketball game in my entire life.  So please be understanding of my ignorance. Please be gentle.

There's different kinds of "spacing."  There's exactly what you're talking about where multiple offensive players are bunched up and too close together.  There's also spacing where you have shooters pulling the defense towards the perimeter creating "space."  In either case, space is referring to the area that the offense has to attack.

Shooters need space to get a clean shot off over the defender.  Midrange shooters/dribble penetration players need space to attack (dribble into) and get to the rim.  Post players need space to operate in to put their size, footwork, and/or dexterity to use.  Defenders are trying to take this space away.  Too many offensive players "bunched together" makes it easier for the defense to guard them and takes away "space" for the ball to move.

Pro players are insanely good at putting the ball in the basket.  I can't stress this enough.  All of them are ridiculously good at it - ALL OF THEM ARE - despite what you hear people on the forums saying about who "sucks."  The best players are so good that multiple defenders are required to guard the "space" they operate in.  For example, if teams only used one player to guard a player like Shaq, LeBron, or Luka every game and gave them enough space...they would score 80 points a night. The same is true for Trae - he is one of these kind of players, despite what you hear from the negative folks. 

Guys like Deandre Hunter or John Collins would score 50 a night if you don't defend them.  If you gave Bogi wide open 3 pointers, he would probably score 100 points a night.  Go watch video of these guys practicing shots with no defense...it's insane how many uncontested shots they can hit in a row.

For elite shooters, the defense has to guard them closely.  They can't have any room (space) to get a shot off.  For guys who are skilled and quick (like Trae and Dejounte), multiple defenders have to hang back and cut them off before they get into scoring position.  If Trae, Dejounte, or even Hunter get anywhere near the basket and get a clean shot off, you can pretty much count it.  The defense *MUST* use multiple defenders, or "help" defenders, to guard their operating "space". 

If the offense is executed accordingly, you can predicted where the defense will have to pull a help defender from.  If and when they do, which is what we call 'committing', the offensive team can move the ball away from the action to get a better shot (if needed).  If done it's right...multiple defenders will be drawn to the "strong side" (where the ball is) and the ball will be move away from them.  The ball moves faster than the players, so by the time the help comes over to cover the attack, the ball is already moving towards an offensive player whose defender has left him to "help" defend the attack. 

If this offensive player is a great shooter (Ray Allen, Luka Doncic, Steph Curry) it's an automatic basket.  The defense understands this, so the "read" the play, and are likely in motion to leave their assigned offensive player (usually prematurely) and "rotate" towards the open shooter to cover.  If the shot goes up, this is called a "close out" - where the defender is running at an open shooter and attempts to prevent a wide open shot.  It's 50/50 here depending on what kind of player gets the ball in this situation and what kind of offense they're running.  If it's Ray Allen or Larry Bird getting that ball, and there's even an inch of space, that ball is going up and probably going in.  This is referred to as "catch and shoot" or "CNS" because the offensive player is just going to catch the ball and shoot it off the pass. 

For context into our conversations here...Trae is the best shooter on this team.  He strokes 30+ foot, HIGHLY contested shots...and sometimes LOGO shots.  If he got wide open catch and shoot opportunities...it would be a nightmare for the defense (moreso than he already is).  But he is always guarded and always has the ball in his hands.  Hence, one of the reasons why SOME of us have been screaming for the front office to bring in someone else that could run the offense and draw the defense.  That's Dejounte Murray...and is also another story...

Anyway, for the average shooter in a ball movement situation, they are going to (or should) pass the ball again unless they have A LOT of space to shoot...this pass will force the same kind of reaction from the defense.  If the defense doesn't respect the next shooter then they don't rotate and they just let that guy shoot (go watch clips of Josh Smith to see this in practical application).  As it were for the Hawks, the only shooter that does not have to be respected in our starting lineup is Clint Capela. 

Good defense will recover - that is "read" what the offense is trying to do, rotate in a timely fashion, and close out fast enough to keep the shot from going up.  "Spacing" is the area that the defense has to cover to keep the shooters from getting off a clean shot and the area that players like Trae have to operate in.  Good shooters keep the defense honest and make it difficult to help contain dribble penetration attackers.  None of this works without ball movement...which you hear us complaining about on the regular in here.

There are people in here that understand X's and O's much better than I do...especially after all of the beer and liquor I've had to tonight, but that's the basics of it.  @Diesel can tell you specifically what he meant by spacing.

On a final note, we have two players that will pretty much force the defense to react every time the touch the ball and we have guys around them that give them multiple secondary options. There's quite literally no reason why we shouldn't be a headache for every team in the league.  It's also, IMO, why you'll see us either dominating a team for stretches or storming back from double-digit deficits.

Also...welcome to the Squawk.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

all of the beer and liquor I've had to tonight,

Had to tonight huh? Wretch, could you please pull over  

[macdaddy]

Watching the Warriors last night.  They come down and go.   They don't dribble around for 10 seconds first.  I know they are running a much different offense but we need to attack. 

[AHF]

43 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Watching the Warriors last night.  They come down and go.   They don't dribble around for 10 seconds first.  I know they are running a much different offense but we need to attack. 

It would be nice to see us moving faster but too often we are Nate on offense.

[Spud2nique]

46 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Watching the Warriors last night. 

 Smack ya bum!  Are you scouting them for January 2nd? By the way, they lost.  

[Spud2nique]

47 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

we need to attack. 

I don’t get why one player gets stuck dribbling. The scheme should be moving the ball crisply and quickly. That’s how you get your dudes open looks.

We are dribbling a lot. ISO Murray ISO Trae.

[Expedite]

12 hours ago, Wretch said:

There's different kinds of "spacing."  There's exactly what you're talking about where multiple offensive players are bunched up and too close together.  There's also spacing where you have shooters pulling the defense towards the perimeter creating "space."  In either case, space is referring to the area that the offense has to attack.

Shooters need space to get a clean shot off over the defender.  Midrange shooters/dribble penetration players need space to attack (dribble into) and get to the rim.  Post players need space to operate in to put their size, footwork, and/or dexterity to use.  Defenders are trying to take this space away.  Too many offensive players "bunched together" makes it easier for the defense to guard them and takes away "space" for the ball to move.

Pro players are insanely good at putting the ball in the basket.  I can't stress this enough.  All of them are ridiculously good at it - ALL OF THEM ARE - despite what you hear people on the forums saying about who "sucks."

 

  The best players are so good that multiple defenders are required to guard the "space" they operate in.  For example, if teams only used one player to guard a player like Shaq, LeBron, or Luka every game and gave them enough space...they would score 80 points a night. The same is true for Trae - he is one of these kind of players, despite what you hear from the negative folks. 

Guys like Deandre Hunter or John Collins would score 50 a night if you don't defend them.  If you gave Bogi wide open 3 pointers, he would probably score 100 points a night.  Go watch video of these guys practicing shots with no defense...it's insane how many uncontested shots they can hit in a row.

For elite shooters, the defense has to guard them closely.  They can't have any room (space) to get a shot off.  For guys who are skilled and quick (like Trae and Dejounte), multiple defenders have to hang back and cut them off before they get into scoring position.  If Trae, Dejounte, or even Hunter get anywhere near the basket and get a clean shot off, you can pretty much count it.  The defense *MUST* use multiple defenders, or "help" defenders, to guard their operating "space". 

If the offense is executed accordingly, you can predicted where the defense will have to pull a help defender from.  If and when they do, which is what we call 'committing', the offensive team can move the ball away from the action to get a better shot (if needed).  If done it's right...multiple defenders will be drawn to the "strong side" (where the ball is) and the ball will be move away from them.  The ball moves faster than the players, so by the time the help comes over to cover the attack, the ball is already moving towards an offensive player whose defender has left him to "help" defend the attack. 

If this offensive player is a great shooter (Ray Allen, Luka Doncic, Steph Curry) it's an automatic basket.  The defense understands this, so the "read" the play, and are likely in motion to leave their assigned offensive player (usually prematurely) and "rotate" towards the open shooter to cover.  If the shot goes up, this is called a "close out" - where the defender is running at an open shooter and attempts to prevent a wide open shot.  It's 50/50 here depending on what kind of player gets the ball in this situation and what kind of offense they're running.  If it's Ray Allen or Larry Bird getting that ball, and there's even an inch of space, that ball is going up and probably going in.  This is referred to as "catch and shoot" or "CNS" because the offensive player is just going to catch the ball and shoot it off the pass. 

For context into our conversations here...Trae is the best shooter on this team.  He strokes 30+ foot, HIGHLY contested shots...and sometimes LOGO shots.  If he got wide open catch and shoot opportunities...it would be a nightmare for the defense (moreso than he already is).  But he is always guarded and always has the ball in his hands.  Hence, one of the reasons why SOME of us have been screaming for the front office to bring in someone else that could run the offense and draw the defense.  That's Dejounte Murray...and is also another story...

Anyway, for the average shooter in a ball movement situation, they are going to (or should) pass the ball again unless they have A LOT of space to shoot...this pass will force the same kind of reaction from the defense.  If the defense doesn't respect the next shooter then they don't rotate and they just let that guy shoot (go watch clips of Josh Smith to see this in practical application).  As it were for the Hawks, the only shooter that does not have to be respected in our starting lineup is Clint Capela. 

Good defense will recover - that is "read" what the offense is trying to do, rotate in a timely fashion, and close out fast enough to keep the shot from going up.  "Spacing" is the area that the defense has to cover to keep the shooters from getting off a clean shot and the area that players like Trae have to operate in.  Good shooters keep the defense honest and make it difficult to help contain dribble penetration attackers.  None of this works without ball movement...which you hear us complaining about on the regular in here.

There are people in here that understand X's and O's much better than I do...especially after all of the beer and liquor I've had to tonight, but that's the basics of it.  @Diesel can tell you specifically what he meant by spacing.

On a final note, we have two players that will pretty much force the defense to react every time the touch the ball and we have guys around them that give them multiple secondary options. There's quite literally no reason why we shouldn't be a headache for every team in the league.  It's also, IMO, why you'll see us either dominating a team for stretches or storming back from double-digit deficits.

Also...welcome to the Squawk.

Very informative. I learned a lot from your post. Thank you

[macdaddy]

3 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

I don’t get why one player gets stuck dribbling. The scheme should be moving the ball crisply and quickly. That’s how you get your dudes open looks.

We are dribbling a lot. ISO Murray ISO Trae.

Guys could learn a lot from soccer.  every pass no matter how mundane moves the defense and every move of the defense raises the potential for them to make a mistake.  

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Expedite said:

Very informative. I learned a lot from your post. Thank you

Welcome to The Squawk!