Do you start to consider Bey over JC at the 4

[NBASupes]

If you check for the RAPTOR, Bey and JC are either neutral or positive players. JC with a 0.0 WAR and a +0.1 Defensive RAPTOR. Bey has a 1.2 WAR and his defensive RAPTOR is awful at -2.5 which would be the 8th worst in the last 5 seasons for the Hawks. 

That said offensively, JC is at -2.9 which would be the 6th worst in the last 5 seasons for the Hawks. Whereas Bey at +1.2 is tied with Gallo for 13th best for the Hawks in the last 5 years. 

With this, you have to think, is it better we keep Bey at starting 4 and move JC but even then, JJ is giving us production off the bench. The thing I saw against Cleveland was Bey had a Kevin Huerter effect where you almost feel like every open 3 is going in and we all know, our guards and wings get a lot of them. With him, the floor was truly spaced and only when they started blitzing the screen, our offense stopped but even them, Bey got is going. So the question is, do we keep Bey as the starting 4. 

I want to see how Quin does with JC first but man, JC gotta get it back. As of right now, his defense is really good but his offense is hit or miss and miss far too much. 

[Spud2nique]

Over Hunter at the 3.

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Over Hunter at the 3.

[This] is why you are blocked and shall remained blocked

AHF - Knock off the insults

[NBASupes]

13 hours ago, NBASupes said:

[This] is why you are blocked and shall remained blocked

AHF - Knock off the insults

@AHF even you know he should be smacked for the nonsense he wrote. [Redacted]
 

AHF - Knock off the insults on both sides.

[Watchman]

20 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If you check for the RAPTOR, Bey and JC are either neutral or positive players. JC with a 0.0 WAR and a +0.1 Defensive RAPTOR. Bey has a 1.2 WAR and his defensive RAPTOR is awful at -2.5 which would be the 8th worst in the last 5 seasons for the Hawks. 

That said offensively, JC is at -2.9 which would be the 6th worst in the last 5 seasons for the Hawks. Whereas Bey at +1.2 is tied with Gallo for 13th best for the Hawks in the last 5 years. 

With this, you have to think, is it better we keep Bey at starting 4 and move JC but even then, JJ is giving us production off the bench. The thing I saw against Cleveland was Bey had a Kevin Huerter effect where you almost feel like every open 3 is going in and we all know, our guards and wings get a lot of them. With him, the floor was truly spaced and only when they started blitzing the screen, our offense stopped but even them, Bey got is going. So the question is, do we keep Bey as the starting 4. 

I want to see how Quin does with JC first but man, JC gotta get it back. As of right now, his defense is really good but his offense is hit or miss and miss far too much. 

If JC has successful finger surgery in the offseason, and can resume his former 3pt percentage and his rebounding, the answer is an obvious stick with JC.  However, Bey can be a useful bench player at 3 and 4.  I'd like to see what JC can do with Snyder as the HC before we make rash decisions. Bey rebounds like a 3 so far ( a lot like Hunter.)

[Spud2nique]

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF even you know he should be smacked for the nonsense he wrote. Coming in here trolling like a big dummy. 

@kg01 

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, Watchman said:

If JC has successful finger surgery in the offseason, and can resume his former 3pt percentage and his rebounding, the answer is an obvious stick with JC.  However, Bey can be a useful bench player at 3 and 4.  I'd like to see what JC can do with Snyder as the HC before we make rash decisions. Bey rebounds like a 3 so far ( a lot like Hunter.)

Bey doesn't really have a true position because defensively, he doesn't defend well. The feel and effort are there. The strength and length are. But the lateral quickness is lacking, the athleticism is as well and he needs help. I do think he does well against big wings when a team has them on D. I do think he has some success defending 4s who aren't those jumbo bigs like Randle or those tall rangy ones like KP where he tends to struggle. 

The reason why I made this thread is for one reason. We aren't just getting no offensive production from JC. We are getting horrendous production on offense from JC. While it's not JC fault, he didn't ask for us to add Murray to f*** up our spacing even more, we did it anyway. It just made life a lot harder for him. Notice, when Capela was out and it was JC and OO, his offensive metrics were going back up and fast but with Capela back, his metrics started going south. We gotta be honest. -2.9 Offensive RAPTOR is in the bottom 10 of the NBA right now and it's in the bottom 6 of Hawks in the last 5 seasons. 

BOX SCORE RAPTORON/OFF RAPTOROVERALL RAPTOR

PLAYERTEAMPOSITION(S)OFF

Dedmon had the worst but actually massively improved it when he was traded to the Hawks from the Kings. 

DeAndre' Bembry'19-'20HawksSG, SF -4.2

49Treveon Graham'19-'20HawksSG, SF-4.1

48DeAndre' Bembry'18-'19HawksSG, SF-3.2

44John Collins'22-'23HawksPF, C-2.9

 

This is bad. Dedmon with the Kings was one of the worst offensive players we have ever seen if not the worst. Atlanta and him needed each other. Even though he couldn't make his 3s with us, he was effective in other ways like helping Trae/JC PnR effectiveness and we were playing well till COVID cut short our season. 

Bembry is listed twice he's one of the worst offensive players to enter the league. 

Graham like Bembry, one of the worst offensive players to enter the league. 

JC is an elite movement specialist but his touches are massively down as they should be, I said for years, he gets way too many touches which lead to nothing. Still, it's down and with Murray, he really isn't used much anymore outside of him and Trae 1/4 PnRs which isn't close to as popular for Trae as the 1/5 PnR. You can talk about the figure but he's shooting better percentages from everyone but deep even with the finger issue. I don't believe the finger is as much an issue as he's just not being used much on offense. 

Spacing is a lot worse due to no reason of his own. We lost a floor spacer in Kevin and replaced it with a mid-range assassin in Murray. JC was always going to be the player that was best on a pretender than a team really trying to win. I've said that for years. I feel like both NYK and ATL are facing the same issue with Barrett and JC as both are out of place where their teams are trying to go. 

Rebounding isn't that big of a deal to me. I am not Diesel. I like it but I prefer a quality product instead. If Bey can get us back to top 3 offense while our defense maybe 20-23 max, I am find with it especially if JC is the reason, we are stuck around 15-20 range. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

No. We need to stop playing small.

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

@kg01 

I got nuthin'.  You made a reasonable comment as far as I can tell.  Guarantee you about 20 squawkers agree with you and are as confused as you and I are. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

I got nuthin'.  You made a reasonable comment as far as I can tell.  Guarantee you about 20 squawkers agree with you and are as confused as you and I are. 

Ya I mean Bey is a small forward before he’s a pf. Tweener is fine but it’s not like I said play Muggsy at the 5. Even then it’s not cool.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya I mean Bey is a small forward before he’s a pf. Tweener is fine but it’s not like I said play Muggsy at the 5. Even then it’s not cool.

That's a brilliant argument. 

Mugsy is a terrible defender... but he's a great offensive player.   Let's plug him in at the 5 because he can get more points than CC. 

Back to reality.....

We're too small with Bey as our primary 4.   

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No. We need to stop playing small.

I like the idea of playing small if the defense is playing hard and avoiding miscue central as last night aka, not the Charlotte game. In our last two games playing small, we scored 138 and 139. 

[JayBirdHawk]

Just now, NBASupes said:

I like the idea of playing small if the defense is playing hard and avoiding miscue central as last night aka, not the Charlotte game. In our last two games playing small, we scored 138 and 139. 

It's not a winning formula.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya I mean Bey is a small forward before he’s a pf. Tweener is fine but it’s not like I said play Muggsy at the 5. Even then it’s not cool.

How is Bey an SF when he can't defend SF on average unless it's a big wing? He defends PFs as well as SFs which isn't all that great. There is a reason his defensive RAPTOR is a -2.5. 

The 2nd sentence is partly correct. He's a tweener and no, playing Muggsy anywhere outside of PGs is shameful since he can guard PGs but can't guard other positions due to his length and height. 

Bey is a tweener. He doesn't have a true defensive position. Offensively, he can play 2, 3, and 4 effectively. That's what makes him unique. I like him because he can guard 4s to a degree. Even if he's below average or bad at it, his offensive value outweighs the negative of his defense. Right now, JC defense is better than the production reads but his offense is killing us and he's the main one killing our offensive value. 

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's not a winning formula.

I think it is. Short term at least till we can address our needs in the offseason. 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's not a winning formula.

It could be a winning formula if Bey had Draymond like skills.   But he don't.   So it's not. 

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's a brilliant argument. 

Mugsy is a terrible defender... but he's a great offensive player.   Let's plug him in at the 5 because he can get more points than CC. 

Back to reality.....

We're too small with Bey as our primary 4.   

It never shocks me to see who cosigns each other on the site. 

It's a horrible comparison. Muggsy was a good defender. Just limited to only one position, PGs. Saying plug him in at the 5 because he can score more points than CC is stupid because Muggsy would get absolutely demolished at the 5 to the point his defensive RAPTOR would be a -20 which would be the WOAT but since no one is that stupid, it will never happen. Bey may not be an ideal 4 but in the last two games he started, the offense has had spacing we just haven't seen in since last year and our defensive personnel is much better overall as well with Murray replacing Huerter. 

Obviously, JC is more valuable defensively at the 4 than Bey and it's not close, Bey is producing at the 4 on offense to a very good level and JC is giving us one of the worst seasons in the last 5 years on offense and is in the bottom 10 of all NBA players this year. We can't win with him being this f***ing bad on offense. He limits us and bad. 

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

It never shocks me to see who cosigns each other on the site. 

It's a horrible comparison. Muggsy was a good defender. Just limited to only one position, PGs. Saying plug him in at the 5 because he can score more points than CC is stupid because Muggsy would get absolutely demolished at the 5 to the point his defensive RAPTOR would be a -20 which would be the WOAT but since no one is that stupid, it will never happen. Bey may not be an ideal 4 but in the last two games he started, the offense has had spacing we just haven't seen in since last year and our defensive personnel is much better overall as well with Murray replacing Huerter. 

Obviously, JC is more valuable defensively at the 4 than Bey and it's not close, Bey is producing at the 4 on offense to a very good level and JC is giving us one of the worst seasons in the last 5 years on offense and is in the bottom 10 of all NBA players this year. We can't win with him being this f***ing bad on offense. He limits us and bad. 

Oh... You missed the hyperboyle. 

Sorry.

 

[NBASupes]

Can someone explain why JC this year should start over Bey this year? If your answer is, I want to see how he looks under Quin, I am fine with that and I agree with that. 

That said, nothing we have seen this year from JC outside of the games where he's starting with OO has looked good for JC. He looks horrible offensively this year and it's not his fault as his percentages haven't dropped much outside of the 3. This is really what happens when you bring in another PG into the lineup who loves using screens to create his own offense and not yours and you play next to the king of anti-gravity at C. 

I saw more in two games from Bey than I have seen in JC all season offensively and it's not like it's just a couple of things. It's a massive swing. The spacing is back. Attacking bigs from the perimeter is back. Teams don't know how to defend us. We are shooting insane percentages. We look f***ing amazing offensively. The defense was awful against Charlotte and had really good moments and even large periods of time on defense against Cleveland, mainly due to OO but still. I was amazed. 

I know some will say, Supes, look at the coaching. I do agree, Prunty did some things that I agree with being better than Nate did but overall, offensively, in both the Charlotte game and Cleveland game, our offense looked unstoppable far too many times, especially with Bey on the floor. Against the Knicks, it was the same ole, same ole. No spacing. Everyone looked frustrated, etc, etc. 

On 2/25/2023 at 11:09 PM, Diesel said:

Oh... You missed the hyperboyle. 

Sorry.

 

You missed [the mark]

[NBASupes]

I'll go so far to say, if Bey is starting at 4 over JC. I believe we can have another 2020-21 run. Maybe not going to the ECF because Boston, Milwaukee, and Philly are just too much right now but we can be unstoppable. 

[NBASupes]

Let me tell ya'll the problem with JC. 

He is an elite movement specialist. That's what he is. His movement is his strength offensively. His other is finishing, athleticism, hands, and shooting touch. 

Playing with Capela has somewhat limited his movement but not too much. In the two years with Clint. JC Off/On +/- has been +2.9 and -0.6. Even though his shots didn't change much, his touches did. When from 56 touches per with LP to 46.7 with Nate. His PPG dropped a point as Clint's went up a point. At this time, we are still running LP's offense. 

Year 2 with Nate. Touches are back up 53.6 but PPG is down to 16.2. Clint's touches and points are way down. You really can't blame Clint. This is year 1 of Nate's own offense. 

Year 3 - Touches are down to 45 which is slightly less than when Nate took over in 2021 but PPG is way down at 13.6. Front Court touches are down by 3 which is a big deal. Point per paint touch is nearly 100 points down as well. That's steep. The biggest thing I see is PPG has been treading lower as we were winning. That's been here since Nate took over. 

From what I see. I don't see JC moving anywhere near as much as he used to. This dude loved to move. It was as much as anyone. Constantly moving off the ball. Now, I see him standing around a lot. Around the paint, at the 3-point line, in the corner, just standing around. Our offense this year has less ball movement than any I can remember and I strongly feel, JC has been hurt by that a lot. JC used to be a lock for 15 just off the movement alone. Right now, with the way he's used and our lack of spacing, I don't know how Quin will get the most out of JC but I hope he can figure it out. I always felt, adding the motion would help JC. He would be good in a Coach Bud offense. He just wouldn't be loved as he lacks versatility on defense which Bud demands. His -1.0 isn't too far from last year which says his offense impact isn't far from last year. Where he is much worse is the production and that's a -3.1 and that's one of the worse in the NBA. 7th worse to be exact.  

That said, JC defense is probably the most improved. He and Hunter have the best Off/On for defense on this team and that's massive. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by NBASupes