Does getting Murray back improve our chances of winning game 6?

[Peoriabird]

This is something that needs to be debated because I'm not so sure.  To me, the high usage rate of Trae in our last game gave Trae the opportunity to look like the Trae of 2 years ago which obviously improves our chances of winning games over the shared usage with Murray that we've seen over the coarse of the regular season on offense.  It seems to me that unless Murray is hitting his catch and shoot opportunities at a high rate, he is a detriment to the offense with Trae on the floor.  With Trae off the floor, Murray will just have to hit his shots since he is a much worse facilitator of the offense than Trae. 

On Defense he is definitely a liability and I know that I have knocked Bogie for his bad point of attack defense in the past, but he actually did a decent job on even a hot JB last game.  And unless Murray is disruptive in the passing lanes which he certainly capable of being, the Hawks are worse with him on the floor especially paired with Young and Capela.  So if those two things happen, it would make him a net positive for sure but its been a long time since we have seen DJM be disruptive on defense.  Let us hope he is hitting his shots tonight to give the Hawks a fighting chance.

[benhillboy]

If he can shoot well from three (2-3 is ideal, don’t take any opportunities away from Bey and Bogi), stay in front of his man, and refrain from committing horrendous lost ball turnovers then yes.  If not then hell no, he’ll contribute to a loss.  The Celtics don’t give a damn about his mid range mastery when they spam three point variance and he rarely gets fouled on attempts.

The on/off metric rarely lies.  DJ was the worst of all the rotation players this season because he can only do a fraction of the things I listed for an ideal Trae mate in this thread:

https://www.hawksquawk.net/topic/437116-who-would-be-the-best-partner-for-trae-on-the-hawks-in-the-nba/

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

This is something that needs to be debated because I'm not so sure.  To me, the high usage rate of Trae in our last game gave Trae the opportunity to look like the Trae of 2 years ago which obviously improves our chances of winning games over the shared usage with Murray that we've seen over the coarse of the regular season on offense.  It seems to me that unless Murray is hitting his catch and shoot opportunities at a high rate, he is a detriment to the offense with Trae on the floor.  With Trae off the floor, Murray will just have to hit his shots since he is a much worse facilitator of the offense than Trae. 

On Defense he is definitely a liability and I know that I have knocked Bogie for his bad point of attack defense in the past, but he actually did a decent job on even a hot JB last game.  And unless Murray is disruptive in the passing lanes which he certainly capable of being, the Hawks are worse with him on the floor especially paired with Young and Capela.  So if those two things happen, it would make him a net positive for sure but its been a long time since we have seen DJM be disruptive on defense.  Let us hope he is hitting his shots tonight to give the Hawks a fighting chance.

We will need Murray's scoring and ball handling. 

Boston will double Trae this game.   They will try to force the ball out of his hands.  Murray and to a lesser extent Bogi will have to be able to get us into sets.   I don't think Murray has a problem stepping out of the way when it's Ice Trae time.

What I would like to see from Murray tonight is him consistently denying White the ball.  Making life hard for White. 

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We will need Murray's scoring and ball handling. 

Boston will double Trae this game.   They will try to force the ball out of his hands.  Murray and to a lesser extent Bogi will have to be able to get us into sets.  

Are you implying that Boston will employ a different defense tonight vs the last game?

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

What I would like to see from Murray tonight is him consistently denying White the ball.  Making life hard for White. 

When has Murray ever demonstrated this ability?

[dalamchops]

Yes, boston was ill prepared last game and gave Trae a ton of room to operate.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, dalamchops said:

Yes, boston was ill prepared last game and gave Trae a ton of room to operate.

I just think that people overrate Murray's impact on the team.  He has so many limitations that have to be overcomed by play in other area where he normally isn't that effective namely shooting and running an offense to even be a net positive.  Let us hope he shoots 35% or better from 3 and 60% on his isos because otherwise he will be a net negative due his poor point of attack and pick and roll defense.

[shakes]

I'm starting to think we're a better team without him.  Similar to the Heat and Herro.   At the very least Trae is a much better player without Murray there.

 

Only issue is the lack of a secondary ball handler which could be a problem if Boston ever bothers to watch the series vs Miami last year.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Are you implying that Boston will employ a different defense tonight vs the last game?

When has Murray ever demonstrated this ability?

1.  I suppose Boston will.   Boston put a lot of effort in it's acclaimed Switching defense.   This defense may have been the brain child of Mazzulla himself.   However, the rule in the NBA is don't let one man beat you.   Last game.. one man beat them.   Trae had 100% usage rate in the last 5 min... and he put up 14 points and the game winner.   Mazzulla being a defensive guy may have a lot of confidence in all of his guys individual but even the former DPOY looked bad trying to stop Trae.   I believe he will give some token pressure to Trae in the form of a Double when he has the ball.   It's not a big change for them because when Trae hit the game winner, Smart was coming up to double, he was just late.   I believe Mazzulla will have them crisp on the double tonight. 

 

2.  You saying that long armed Murray can't deny the ball?  That's what he does.   He plays passing lanes.   His steals are not all from taking the ball from the defender, some of them are him gambling in the passing lane.   I would rather tonight he stick to White (only  when he's on the court) and deny him the ball.  When White gets the ball, it's been too easy for him to stroll down the middle and score.   He has too much size for our guards and he's not on the radar of our bigs. 

 

 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

I just think that people overrate Murray's impact on the team.  He has so many limitations that have to be overcomed by play in other area where he normally isn't that effective namely shooting and running an offense to even be a net positive.  Let us hope he shoots 35% or better from 3 and 60% on his isos because otherwise he will be a net negative due his poor point of attack and pick and roll defense.

You sound like the early days of the Tatum/Brown debates. 

 

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

2.  You saying that long armed Murray can't deny the ball?  That's what he does.   He plays passing lanes.   His steals are not all from taking the ball from the defender, some of them are him gambling in the passing lane.   I would rather tonight he stick to White (only  when he's on the court) and deny him the ball.  When White gets the ball, it's been too easy for him to stroll down the middle and score.   He has too much size for our guards and he's not on the radar of our bigs. 

 

 

Denying the ball and getting in passing lanes are 2 different defensive skills.  Trae and Bogi get in passing lanes but ain't denying the ball

[JayBirdHawk]

Maybe Murray should volunteer to come off the bench (ala Draymond Green after his suspension). 

[Peoriabird]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Maybe Murray should volunteer to come off the bench (ala Draymond Green after his suspension). 

That might improve his value especially if he doesn't perform at his optimal self.  If his shot is falling at a high rate then he should be fine but pairing him with Trae without him being his optimal self could guarantee the Hawks fate.

[swanlee]

With our team this year who knows? 

I just hope next year with a full offseason of Snyder he figured out a way to make our roster work with whatever changes we make over the off season

[Gray Mule]

Depends.  Hawks won one game with Murray and won one game without him.

Celtics have one more thing to worry about (Murray)  than they did in our last game.  Add to the fact they are the visiting team tonight when the Hawk fans act as the 6th man, Boston has to worry a bit.

I hope they worry so much that they become tense and can't make all those threes!  Whatever happens, win or lose, the Celtics will always remember the fight that our .500 Hawk team put them through.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Gray Mule

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Depends.  Hawks won one game with Murray and won one game without him.

 

The other way to look at is that the Hawks lost 3 games with Murray and none without him

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

The other way to look at is that the Hawks lost 3 games with Murray and none without him

This is the most Pbird post I've ever seen lol love it

Glass half full?  Nope, it's actually completely empty.

Anyways, I generally agree with the points in this thread.  I am hopefully Quin can better integrate Trae and Murray this offseason because lord knows Nate stagger-their-minutes did not have a clue how to get any synergies out of them.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Denying the ball and getting in passing lanes are 2 different defensive skills.  Trae and Bogi get in passing lanes but ain't denying the ball

Tomato.... Tomatoe..

  One of the best ways to Deny the ball is to cover the passing lanes.  Good Grief. 

 

 

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Maybe Murray should volunteer to come off the bench (ala Draymond Green after his suspension). 

I don't want to overwork Bogi's knees... but if we feel that there is value in starting Bogi over Murray... maybe. 

 

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This is the most Pbird post I've ever seen lol love it

Glass half full?  Nope, it's actually completely empty.

 

[Peoriabird]

7 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I am hopefully Quin can better integrate Trae and Murray this offseason because lord knows Nate stagger-their-minutes did not have a clue how to get any synergies out of them.

It is just not possible!  Murray just doesn't have the natural skill to compliment Trae.  He is forced to manufacture shooting skill and effective defense by getting deflections and steal.  The perfect fit with Trae is prime Klay Thompson whose skills are the opposite of Murray.  Of course the Hawks can win if Murray performs above his usual level but to expect consistent Klay Thompson like performances is fools gold.