Nets about to get good

[kg01]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

He wasn't interested in losing games on purpose.  No credible coach is interested in that.  The Hawks also knew that they kept Bud, there was no way they would lose enough games to get a top pick no matter how they stacked the roster against him.  Ownership wanted to lose games, and Travis Schlenk was on board.  So, they pushed the issue to force Bud out when they should have given him a big extension and let him do his work.  All of this started when Tony Ressler forced Dwight Howard onto Bud when Bud wanted to keep Al Horford.  

This is semantics.  That group had topped out and they needed to reset.

It wasn't Bud that wanted to keep Horford, it was the Hawks that wanted to keep Horford.  Horford wanted to play the 4 so they went out and got a 5 so he could do just that.  Then he left anyway.

Respectfully, you can't always spin everything to make Buden a victim.  He wasnt forced out.  At worst, he saw the writing on the wall and left.

Continuing to watch him be exceptionally non-elite with an aging roster benefitted no one.  That's the definition of diminishing returns. 

[KB21]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

This is semantics.  That group had topped out and they needed to reset.

It wasn't Bud that wanted to keep Horford, it was the Hawks that wanted to keep Horford.  Horford wanted to play the 4 so they went out and got a 5 so he could do just that.  Then he left anyway.

Respectfully, you can't always spin everything to make Buden a victim.  He wasnt forced out.  At worst, he saw the writing on the wall and left.

Continuing to watch him be exceptionally non-elite with an aging roster benefitted no one.  That's the definition of diminishing returns. 

The result of that decision is that we have several young players who have not had proper coaching until they hired Quin Snyder.  There has been an overall lack of proper player development up until this year.  DeAndre Hunter stagnated under the previous two staffs, and we started to see him finally show some flashes of what he can be now.  Jalen Johnson stagnated under Nate McMillan, and he's flashed that he is a potential big-time player under Snyder.  

Much like Quin did late this season, Bud is the type of coach that can make a G League team competitive at the NBA level.  Tony Ressler couldn't have that, so he stacked the deck and forced Bud out.  

Edited April 16 by KB21

[kg01]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

The result of that decision is that we have several young players who have not had proper coaching until they hired Quin Snyder.  There has been an overall lack of proper player development up until this year.  DeAndre Hunter stagnated under the previous two staffs, and we started to see him finally show some flashes of what he can be now.  Jalen Johnson stagnated under Nate McMillan, and he's flashed that he is a potential big-time player under Snyder.  

Much like Quin did late this season, but is the type of coach that can make a G League team competitive at the NBA level.  Tony Ressler couldn't have that, so he stacked the deck and forced Bud out.  

That's fair(ish).  But the issue wasn't the initial decision (moving on from Buden).  It was hiring the wrong guy(s) in the interim. 

I can't believe we're still arguing on this. Haha 

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He wasn't interested in losing games on purpose.  No credible coach is interested in that.  The Hawks also knew that they kept Bud, there was no way they would lose enough games to get a top pick no matter how they stacked the roster against him.  Ownership wanted to lose games, and Travis Schlenk was on board.  So, they pushed the issue to force Bud out when they should have given him a big extension and let him do his work.  All of this started when Tony Ressler forced Dwight Howard onto Bud when Bud wanted to keep Al Horford.  

Pops is.  He has been through several tanking seasons already with rumors that they plan for another next year.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

Pops is.  He has been through several tanking seasons already with rumors that they plan for another next year.

Yep, Gllllenn Rivers is too ... wait no, check that, he just sucks.

[macdaddy]

I know we've argued the Bud leaving ad nauseum in the past.  Facts are he left an eff'd up organization that he did a good job for and got one of the better jobs in the NBA and won a title.  So at this point I'm not sure how we can still fault him for that. 

No one in the org complained about him leaving.  Travis/Tony everyone wanted him gone.  Only reason they didn't fire him is they were content with him lame duck coaching another tanking season so they didn't have to pay 2 coaches.  If anything has been proven true it has to be that.  So once he was gone they went and got the cheapest coach they could find that had some experience and started saying how much better he was going to develop and relate to the young players than Bud.   But did he?  No.  Quite the opposite.  

 

[KB21]

17 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I know we've argued the Bud leaving ad nauseum in the past.  Facts are he left an eff'd up organization that he did a good job for and got one of the better jobs in the NBA and won a title.  So at this point I'm not sure how we can still fault him for that. 

No one in the org complained about him leaving.  Travis/Tony everyone wanted him gone.  Only reason they didn't fire him is they were content with him lame duck coaching another tanking season so they didn't have to pay 2 coaches.  If anything has been proven true it has to be that.  So once he was gone they went and got the cheapest coach they could find that had some experience and started saying how much better he was going to develop and relate to the young players than Bud.   But did he?  No.  Quite the opposite.  

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I know we've argued the Bud leaving ad nauseum in the past.  Facts are he left an eff'd up organization that he did a good job for and got one of the better jobs in the NBA and won a title.  So at this point I'm not sure how we can still fault him for that. 

No one in the org complained about him leaving.  Travis/Tony everyone wanted him gone.  Only reason they didn't fire him is they were content with him lame duck coaching another tanking season so they didn't have to pay 2 coaches.  If anything has been proven true it has to be that.  So once he was gone they went and got the cheapest coach they could find that had some experience and started saying how much better he was going to develop and relate to the young players than Bud.   But did he?  No.  Quite the opposite.  

 

Bud got permission and was interviewed for the Suns gig, then the Nets (I think)...finally ended up with the Bucks. He didn't want to be here and they didn't want him here.  We see this all the time...new GM wants their own coach. Once Bud the GM was relieved of his duties the writing was on the wall.

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Bud got permission and was interviewed for the Suns gig, then the Nets (I think)...finally ended up with the Bucks. He didn't want to be here and they didn't want him here.  We see this all the time...new GM wants their own coach. Once Bud the GM was relieved of his duties the writing was on the wall.

The big difference is most coaches just move on.  They don't demand their old teams pay them to coach somewhere else when they want to leave.  Kudos to Calipari for not doing that on his way out of Lexington.

[macdaddy]

19 hours ago, AHF said:

The big difference is most coaches just move on.  They don't demand their old teams pay them to coach somewhere else when they want to leave.  Kudos to Calipari for not doing that on his way out of Lexington.

They pulled the old 'be mean to your girlfriend so she breaks up with you' because they were too cheap to actually fire him.  Everyone knew that was what was going on.   They certainly didn't pay him out of the kindness of their hearts. They knew they were on the hook.   They actually ended up having to pay him way less than if they had fired him which i'm sure is why they gave him permission.  

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

They pulled the old 'be mean to your girlfriend so she breaks up with you' because they were too cheap to actually fire him.  Everyone knew that was what was going on.   They certainly didn't pay him out of the kindness of their hearts. They knew they were on the hook.   They actually ended up having to pay him way less than if they had fired him which i'm sure is why they gave him permission.  

Yep, and they could have pushed for draft pick compensation from Milwaukee as well.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

They pulled the old 'be mean to your girlfriend so she breaks up with you' because they were too cheap to actually fire him.  Everyone knew that was what was going on.   They certainly didn't pay him out of the kindness of their hearts. They knew they were on the hook.   They actually ended up having to pay him way less than if they had fired him which i'm sure is why they gave him permission.  

They paid him to move on without a fight or bad publicity.  It was pretty darn generous after maintaining his $7M per year salary after he was no longer performing personnel duties. Usually coaches and teams come to an agreement on a heavily discounted buyout that gives the coach some cash and frees the coach to go find another job.  

Unless my memory is off, the only discount they got was an offset against the salary in Milwaukee which was low because Bud knew he would still be paid by Atlanta.  This was more of a gift to the Bucks than to the Hawks.

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yep, and they could have pushed for draft pick compensation from Milwaukee as well.

Agreed.  It was a gift to Mike and the Bucks in order to simply turn the page.

Amazing how generous we have been to Milwaukee over the years.  Between letting our head coach go to them early to share our scouting on Giannis and then letting Budenholzer go so the Bucks could get him for free at a discount, I think they owe us.

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

They paid him to move on without a fight or bad publicity.  It was pretty darn generous after maintaining his $7M per year salary after he was no longer performing personnel duties. Usually coaches and teams come to an agreement on a heavily discounted buyout that gives the coach some cash and frees the coach to go find another job.  

Unless my memory is off, the only discount they got was an offset against the salary in Milwaukee which was low because Bud knew he would still be paid by Atlanta.  This was more of a gift to the Bucks than to the Hawks.

Agreed.  It was a gift to Mike and the Bucks in order to simply turn the page.

Amazing how generous we have been to Milwaukee over the years.  Between letting our head coach go to them early to share our scouting on Giannis and then letting Budenholzer go so the Bucks could get him for free at a discount, I think they owe us.

So you really think, with everything we know about this ownership, that they were being generous?  They did what they were contractually obligated to do.   And the way they did it saved them millions because Bud landed a job.  He could have stayed home and collected it all from the Hawks.  

[AHF]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

So you really think, with everything we know about this ownership, that they were being generous?  They did what they were contractually obligated to do.   And the way they did it saved them millions because Bud landed a job.  He could have stayed home and collected it all from the Hawks.  

I think with everything I know about this ownership that they make sometimes emotional, stupid decisions with money.  Sometimes that is grossly overpaying John Collins when they don't have to.  Sometimes that is giving JC away for a ham sandwich whose expiration date was already passed.

I think that when Bud made it clear he wouldn't be a part of driving the bus he drove off the cliff that they made an emotional decision that was generous to Bud and indirectly generous to the Bucks.  If I was in charge I would have forced Bud to either sign off on a smaller buyout or to keep coaching in Atlanta.  They didn't want to have that fight and so gave into his demand to pay him everything under his contract while he went to try to land another job and then keep paying him while he coached for another team.

We ended up with LP and the combination of LP's salary + Bud's salary (reduced for his Milwaukee salary) which probably wasn't all that different than just paying Bud.  And I think Bud is a much better coach than LP so what value we really captured is very much unclear to me.

Bud COULD NOT have stayed home and collected from the Hawks.  If he refused to perform his contract duties, the Hawks could have refused to pay him.  What that would have prevented them from doing was landing LP as their new coach.  This would have forced a standoff which I don't think Ressler had the stomach for.

[JayBirdHawk]

Mike Budenholzer had high contract demands in Nets talks?

 

Brian Lewis: It was a wide search. Mike Budenholzer was part of that, but from what I’m led to believe, his contract demands were rather high. A lot of money for a lot of years. The numbers I’ve heard that I can’t share are probably beyond even my wildest expectations. Michael Scotto: Mike Budenholzer was the best-known name for his accolades. I heard Joe Tsai liked Budenholzer as a potential candidate because of his championship pedigree. Sources close to Budenholzer told me he’s open to coaching in a big market, and Brooklyn was within a big market, so it fit that and made sense from that perspective, even though the Nets are not ready to be a championship contender immediately. 

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Mike Budenholzer had high contract demands in Nets talks?

 

Brian Lewis: It was a wide search. Mike Budenholzer was part of that, but from what I’m led to believe, his contract demands were rather high. A lot of money for a lot of years. The numbers I’ve heard that I can’t share are probably beyond even my wildest expectations. Michael Scotto: Mike Budenholzer was the best-known name for his accolades. I heard Joe Tsai liked Budenholzer as a potential candidate because of his championship pedigree. Sources close to Budenholzer told me he’s open to coaching in a big market, and Brooklyn was within a big market, so it fit that and made sense from that perspective, even though the Nets are not ready to be a championship contender immediately. 

Bud wanted that Monti monay! 

[Atlantaholic]

On 4/16/2024 at 9:07 AM, kg01 said:

This is semantics.  That group had topped out and they needed to reset.

It wasn't Bud that wanted to keep Horford, it was the Hawks that wanted to keep Horford.  Horford wanted to play the 4 so they went out and got a 5 so he could do just that.  Then he left anyway.

Respectfully, you can't always spin everything to make Buden a victim.  He wasnt forced out.  At worst, he saw the writing on the wall and left.

Continuing to watch him be exceptionally non-elite with an aging roster benefitted no one.  That's the definition of diminishing returns. 

Yeah people forget how disappointing the last two Bud year's were and his coaching was not great. Milwaukee fan were never huge Bud fans. They were one Durant shoe size away from having absolutely nothing but awful playoff showings every single year he was coach. 

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yeah people forget how disappointing the last two Bud year's were and his coaching was not great. Milwaukee fan were never huge Bud fans. They were one Durant shoe size away from having absolutely nothing but awful playoff showings every single year he was coach. 

They were also a 'ref sliding his foot under Trae' away from getting put TF out that year too.

[Watchman]

On 4/16/2024 at 10:44 AM, kg01 said:

Thanks.  The idea that Buden was a 'babe in the woods, all-in on Hawks but had it taken from him' is plainly false.  

HE quit on US.  Period. 

If you tank on purpose, you get the same treatment that Lloyd Pierce did.  They will hire you, only to use you as a scapegoat, and fire you.  I don't blame him at all for not being willing to tank, I appreciate his integrity.  I do not approve of tanking at all.  It is the same as throwing games.  Lots of people have been banned from their sport because they threw games.

[KB21]

2 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yeah people forget how disappointing the last two Bud year's were and his coaching was not great. Milwaukee fan were never huge Bud fans. They were one Durant shoe size away from having absolutely nothing but awful playoff showings every single year he was coach. 

This is  complete nonsense.  Mike Budenholzer is a great coach.  One of the best in all of basketball.  Look at Milwaukee and their win total before Mike, with Mike, and now without Mike.  He’s one of the five very best coaches in basketball.