Phoostal, Hots, Vol... The Debate Starts here:

[Diesel]

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Someone on this great site of ours tell us these big free agents that are going to sign with the Hawks and why they would want to be part of a rebuilding project. Please give me an answer and maybe I can see some validity to this latest trade.

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If you were going to complain, the latest trade is not the time to do it. Maybe you should have complained about the original trade of Reef/Theo/Dickau for Wallace/Person...

However, you want to complain about :

Trading 17 million dollars in capspace for 17 Million dollars in Capspace, a better lottery position, and a 1st rounder...

That's what it comes down to Phoostal?

Now... Before we rely on your powers to predict what we can get in FAcy... Let me say this:

The first trade. We were paying Reef/Theo/Dickau 25 million dollars to play and not be able to win back to back games. All season we had won no Back to back games. It's not that the chemistry didn't have time to come together.... These guys played together last year.

So let's think about this... If your mechanic charged you $400.00 everytime you saw him and he NEVER fixed your car, would you continue to pay him or would you get a new mechanic??

I think that the first trade is justified being that we were not on the road to winning. As Hots has said... We wasn't winning anything of importance. So to get 25 Million dollars in cap space gives us freedom to start over.

2nd

The trade of Wallace for capRoom and a first.

If you really want Rasheed, we are in the same position to get him as we were before. Only now, we have a first round pick and a possible Stronger lottery pick. So what's all the crying about?

If all the crying that you guys are doing is about a chance at going to the playoffs, stop crying...

We wasn't going anywhere. We would have won maybe 30-35 games. We would have missed the playoffs and be in a horrid draft position with Rasheed not likely to resign with us. We can do better than that.

So what's the crying about.

We wasn't winners before the trade.

We wasn't winners before the second Wallace trade.

We aren't winners NOW..BUT....

Our losing isn't without a purpose.

The purpose is that now we get a better pick in the lottery.

Now we have lots of Capspace.

Also...You guys have no basis for talking about our ability to get FAs. Remember... All the years that the Hawks have been, we have been hampered by big contracts and have never had an abundance of money to spend on FAs. The one time we had money... we got our man (Deke). However, Koncak's contract hurt us. The snake's contract hurt us. Hendu/CC's contract hurt us. Yes... It's easy to say that we can't draw free agents when we have the same money that everybody else is offering... However, NOW, we have REAL money. WE have enough to put together a team of FAs together. We have never been there with money. We have always been a MCE team trying to compete with other MCE teams.... Did you think we could get Rick Fox from the Lakers? Find me one incident when we had more money on the table than any other team and the free agent turned us down to take less money??

[Plainview1981]

Lets look at this way....If you've had a brand new car

for a few years and then decided a few years later it

isn't good enough for you. Does that mean you just take

it to the crushers or just give it away? Keep in mind

that just a few years ago it was brand new car..It

has value...Do you try and sell it getting the best

deal in return? Or do you just throw it away for nothing.

The team should have got the BBD and Billy Knight didn't

get it.

[Diesel]

In your analogy...

Didn't we sell the car?

I mean think about it... Had we traded Reef/Theo/DD for more contracts, that's merely trading the car in.

We sold the car and now we have money to buy a new one.

Now, we have money. Yes, we're walking... It doesn't look good when you're walking, but we have enough money to buy a brand new Car.

Now Hotlanta... You complained daily about the old car. You complained about the noises you heard in the old car. You complained daily about it's performance. You complained daily about it's gas mileage in comparison to other cars. You complained daily about the tire treads....

So we sold that car.

We got cash. We're going to buy a new car... But first we have some walking to do. No, we can't pick up the chicks while we're walking... But that's alright... We're going to get a NEW Car.

You know what's so great about the new car. It's custom made Hots... It has exactly what we want. We don't have to take the throw ins like last time. We actually have a budget now. And when you got cash.. regaurdless of what the salesman is trying to tell you.. He's going to get you what you want!

[Plainview1981]

It has everything but the lotto pick that probably could have been had somehow. I know palyers had to go, but the

hawks failed to get enough. I'd love to package two lotto

picks to help get a player(s)that can help build around.

When does Tmac become a FA? IT would be nice to have two

lotto picks...As bad as Orlando is off they just might

trade.

[Diesel]

The first trade was with Portland.

Only Portland had enough cap space to give us. The only other offer on the table was a deal with Seattle that would have left us with James/Radman but no caproom and we would have been in a worst position than we were.

So PTL offered to give us their cap room. We took. I hear a lot of you complaining about a lottery pick? Where??

PTL is climbing and will surpass Houston and other phonies in the playoff race. There was no lottery pick there. There could have been a first round pick.. However, if that pick was the make or break of the deal, I would rather have the deal than not have the deal.

DET is already playoff bound. No lottery pick there either. They gave us Milwaukee's pick which if things hold will be a first rounder. Probably lower than Detroit's. So there is your pick.

Tmac becomes a free agent in 2005. One other thing that this deal does is it gives us a year to put together a squad that can interest Tmac. Because when he comes out, we should have 11 more million added to our cap. In a perfect world, we get Kobe this year and Tmac next year... However, this world is not perfect. However, now we are in a position to at least start talking about it. I don't want to hear about never happens because really YOU DON'T KNOW. Nobody but Kobe knows Kobe's true motivation. I think his motivation is to carry a team to the finals.

Foyle/Howard/Kobe/Tmac/Arroyo!

Before, that was merely a pipe dream. Well, we are now in a position to make it happen.

[pathway23]

Hots we still have JT and we can trade him in July for a player and a pick or in a package for a player and a pick. Some team might just take him for a true PG and a pick if they have depth at PG...it also looks like we have a lottery pick , a mid first rounder, and two high second rounders, so chances are we could trade a couple picks for a higher pick as well...if we wanted to do that, but I think not because we need to stockpile talent with this draft. I think this will be redemption for that draft Babcock went from 4 to 1 on...the 99 draft I think...he got JT and he could have had JT, Ginobili, Kirilenko and somebody else all at once!...

[Plainview1981]

I know it's just tough seeing the franchise throw out so

teams like JT/sura/Jackson/Crawford/Joel. Other than Deke

no other big name has come to the Hawks since I been a fan

I don't think. I have a ahrd time believing anyone would

want to come here because it just hasn't happend since the

80s'. And I will not believe until I see it happen.

[Diesel]

We have never had money other than MCE to offer FAs. That's an offer a FA can get from any other team. Considering the state that Babcock put us in, FAs shouldn't have come. I mean, in a time when we could have been something... Babcock wasted 4 lottery picks and then put us into the hands of a College Coach.

However, now... The whole league sees Regime change.

New Owners. New Team. New Coach? In a city that most NBA players really like. This is not Utah. This is Atlanta. Every FA is looking at the effect that Vick has had with the Falcons. Vick is the most marketed player in the NFL and he plays for who??? Atlanta. With this regime change, Kobe, Tmac, etc has got to think.. I can go there, be marketed, and be paid...

Nobody has pointed out 1 FA that has turned down the Hawks to play somewhere else for less (excluding LAL).

[Vol4ever]

The bottom line is the Hawks traded very good players in Reef, Theo, and Wallace for what? Cap Room? There was no lottery picks in those trades. Execs around the league are sickering about this screwed up franchise.

The Hawks should have required Portland to give up Randolph in the trade because he and Reef play the same position. Let's see who or what pciks Portland recieves in the deal when they trade either Randolph or Reef?

You guys can forgoet Kobe Bryant coming to the Hawks. It isn't going to happen.

[Diesel]

The real point is that before the trade, GMs around the league were snickering about this team. We had a team that was costing us 60 million dollars who couldn't win Back to back games.

Yes, Shareef is good... But he can't win alone..

Yes, Theo is good... In the right situation.

Dickau is a question mark.

What exactly did you want?

Did you want to trade Reef or Theo for Bad Contracts so that you can say... "Well we got something out of it". You wanted another Ken Norman who sits on the payroll collecting checks inhibiting us from going after good players.

You historians got History all wrong. Atl has been Successful in every attempt to get FAs when we had MONEY.

With that in mind.

What if our dealings lead to us getting Kobe? How many GMs will be snickering?? I mean we are the biggest player in the game, we have the most money in the game and KOBE is definitely leaving LAL. The only time a FA turn down the most money is to stay with his current team. Well, what is your basis for believing that we can't get Kobe? I can tell you mine:

1. We have money.

2. We are in the East.

3. He will be the leader of this team.

4. He can prove his critics wrong here.

5. We can put together a team around him.

Give me your list of reasons why you think not??

Please give me something more than... "Because I think he wont.".

[Plainview1981]

This is what you are not getting...

NFL=Popular and lots of fans NBA=Most consider boring

these days.

It doesn't matter what happend with Vick. THe NFL and NBA

aren't the same. Georgia IS a football state and not a

basketball state. Even during the Mookie/Deke era even

when there was a decent crowd the fans didn't get behind

the team. In fact, the fans often rooted AGAINEST the

Hawks.

There was an article on here last year with players saying

they wouldn't want to play here. It doesn't matter about

the city because they can come to the city during the

offseason.

[Vol4ever]

I agree with Hotlanta, he spelled out the truth about our city.

Fact is the Hawks have not gotten the FA they wanted. Rick Fox is a mid to low guy that would not sign with the Hawks. I remember when the Hawks tried to get Maurice Lucas and Moses Malone in the ABA dispersal draft and we did not get either of them. I remember when the Hawks traded the rights of Mauraice Lucas to Portland for Geoff Petrie who ended up playing maybe 20 games. I remember when then Hawks traded the No#1 pick in the draft to Houston for "Joe C. Meriweather". I remember when the Hawks drafted Marvin Webster and lost him to the ABA. How about losing Julius Erving to the ABA? I remember when the Hawks traded Nique for Danny Manning. How about Pete Maravich? How about JR Rider and now Rasheed Wallace? Should I continue? Yep we've got everyone we went after. Diesel, study your history before you start spewing out garbage to those you think less knowledgeable about the Hawks than yourself.

Maybe your not old enough be old enough to remember these debacles in the past.

Maybe the future will change things..........

[Focus]

Sorry for interrupt, just want to add my 2cents. Fire sales is not a way to rebuild a team, you can build from Rookie(s) and hope you can get good in FA(see Bull). You have to have at least SOME good player in place like Buck have Redd/TT in order to hope FA will come. We have what? Diaw/CC/Travis/Alan, good luck for them to average 10ppg. Plus 4picks, assume Howard/Livingston/Robert Swift/Anderson Varejao and sign JC/Q. You still going nowhere. And which good coach willing to spend 3-4yrs to develop those rookies for you?

For the Portland trade, we have to AT LEAST get Randolph in return.

Remember Tmac/Kobe kind of superstar are not coming because we simply don't have the supporting cast for them(at least not ready).

[TROUBLEMAN69]

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I agree with Hotlanta, he spelled out the truth about our city.

Fact is the Hawks have not gotten the FA they wanted. Rick Fox is a mid to low guy that would not sign with the Hawks. I remember when the Hawks tried to get Maurice Lucas and Moses Malone in the ABA dispersal draft and we did not get either of them. I remember when the Hawks traded the rights of Mauraice Lucas to Portland for Geoff Petrie who ended up playing maybe 20 games. I remember when then Hawks traded the No#1 pick in the draft to Houston for "Joe C. Meriweather". I remember when the Hawks drafted Marvin Webster and lost him to the ABA. How about losing Julius Erving to the ABA? I remember when the Hawks traded Nique for Danny Manning. How about Pete Maravich? How about JR Rider and now Rasheed Wallace? Should I continue? Yep we've got everyone we went after. Diesel, study your history before you start spewing out garbage to those you think less knowledgeable about the Hawks than yourself.

Maybe your not old enough be old enough to remember these debacles in the past.

Maybe the future will change things..........

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I'm trying to figure out what this post actually means. The Hawks had Pete Maravich, so what is the point behind that? You then bring up bad mgmt decisions and use them to justify the Hawks not being able to attract free agents? What does the Hawks trading Dominique Wilkins for Danny Manning have to do with the ability to attract free agents? What does JR Rider and Rasheed Wallace have to do with the ability to attract free agents? Rasheed Wallace never said he wouldn't resign with the Hawks, that was his agent speaking, and his agent told the Detroit Pistons not to trade for him because he isn't resigning there either. The Hawks brought in Moses Malone and Reggie Theus during the late 80's. Like it was mentioned earlier, the Hawks haven't had money to bring in free agents since Dikembe Mutombo, and I think they got him. This nonsense about players not wanting to come to Atlanta is the same bullcrap I heard about the Falcons and the Braves. It is a bunch of media driven bullcrap and you guys are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.

TROUBLEMAN

[TROUBLEMAN69]

Also why do people keep mentioning the Bulls, when the fact is nobody wanted to play for Jerry Krause, especially after he blew up a championship team. What NBA player wanted to follow in the steps of Michael Jordan? They got rid of Phil Jackson, Michael Jordan, and Scottie Pippen after they won a championship. They traded Elton Brand, who was about 21-22 at the time for a prospect. They signed Ron Mercer and Eddie Robinson to overpaid free agent deals. Do you guys not see that they traded Brad Miller (25) and Elton Brand (22)? That team has bad mgmt all over it. Their situation is totally different.

TROUBLEMAN

[Diesel]

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Fact is the Hawks have not gotten the FA they wanted. Rick Fox is a mid to low guy that would not sign with the Hawks.

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Yeah, Rick Fox choose the LA MCE over the Atlanta MCE. However, Fox wanted an acting career... You remember Fox... Oz? Atlanta couldn't provide him with that. However, that's looking at the same money. When has a FA looked at More money from Atlanta and went Elsewhere Since Nique??

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I remember when the Hawks traded Nique for Danny Manning. How about Pete Maravich? How about JR Rider and now Rasheed Wallace? Should I continue?

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None of these were free agent situations. Many of the examples that you referenced were before Nique. However, when you say before Nique, we were an expansion team. Nique put Atlanta on the map... Since that point, there is NO FA who has turned us down for less money. NONE.

Ced Ceballos begged to be a Hawk when we were in pursuit of Rick Fox. Grant Long and Corliss Williamson also begged to be a part of this team when they were free agents. We picked up Ehlo as a FA. We picked up Deke as a FA.

But Vol, do you know what the problem has been? It's not the free agents wanting to come to Atlanta. NO.. NO... It's the money. We've been Capped out since Babcock signed Ken Norman. That means that we had no money to give. The only time we had money was when we got a 4 million dollar exemption going into the 2000 draft. We used it to sign Lorenzen Wright... (another FA that choose Atlanta)...

So, go into your recollection and Find a FA that took less money to go elsewhere would you??

[Diesel]

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Sorry for interrupt, just want to add my 2cents. Fire sales is not a way to rebuild a team, you can build from Rookie(s) and hope you can get good in FA(see Bull).

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The modern day Dynasty... The Lakers... were built on a Fire Sell!

They cleared up all their Cap Room and traded their Starting C Vlade Divac for a first rounder (Kobe) so that they would have room to sign the free agent Shaq. It was a fire sell. In order to keep their dynasty..

They traded Van Exel for an ending Contract, they traded Campbell and Jones for Rice.

Fire Sell.

We've talked about the Magic.

Look at Denver this year. Got rid of everybody with big money. Now they are in the playoffs with an even brighter future.