Keep Kobe even his Wife has an over inflated ego

[BlackHawkDown]

http://www.soccrew.com/upload/lakerwivesespnzone.htm

Kobe is a cancer he has no personality and is a ball hog that thinks he is Jordan. The truth is Kobe isn't the savior the Hawks need. Remeber 89-90 when we had 4 all-stars and none of them could get along. Lets build with smaller ego's and better chemistry.

Shaq's wife is impressive.

[Plainview1981]

Yeah like those boring 90's Hawks? Payton and Shaq's wife

ain't all that good looking.

[Gray Mule]

I wondered if any one else thought that way.

Too much money for what you get, I believe. He couldn't

do it all, all by himself. He's good, but not THAT good.

[Weez]

Simply put, no, I don't. I agree with much of what yo'ure getting at, the emphasis on team play and things of that nature. Likewise, I agree that Kobe plays out of the system unnecessarily at times...

But as I've stated before, players of Kobe's caliber are very, very few and far between. A couple per generation, every 15 years or so. Players with both the skill and desire (TMac lacks one) to win, period.

two points:

1) say you build the team Mule's way, not going out on a limb for that superstar...but instead create one iwth "team guys" that are good players in their own right and work well together...what happens, eventually? See the Pistons (esp. before Sheed got there, but still), a team that goes through scoring droughts and has no one to really turn to, that everyone trusts, or at least concedes, has the best odds of hitting the last shot or pulling them up in the 4th...The Hawks teams of the mid 90's were much like this no? lacked that extra bit...

2) Guys like Kobe have the ability to "get in the zone" much more often than others. Though they will sometimes fail, they will take this failure as their own fault. Kobe has done this publicly. Poor but adequate example ~ I was playin ball today at the gym. We'd lost the first two pickup games, my buddy was pretty winded and really not wanting to come back for another ~ "we wouldn't win anyway"I said no, we're playing. I'll take most of the shots if you want, but I promise you this, we won't lose. You know what happened ~ hitting shots that he didn't want me to take in the first place, from runners to 3's. But somewhere along the way, probably cause swimming is such an individual sport, where it's all on you, I learned how to "turn on the switch." No, I wasn't the team player or making all the "smart passes" that I'd made in the first two games, even when he was wide open. we walked away winnin 11-4.

Kobe knows how to do this, generally can, and wants to do this. the post is getting long, so I'll wrap it up saying this. Kobe's still 26. He's played with Shaq and Phil his whole life ~ a great commodity, but one in a way that probably rubs him the wrong way at times, esp. when you see Shaq getting heavier and heavier each year, yet stating that the desire's just as strong and while demanding just as much respect while his own skills have only grown during this time. It chaffes at times. But who do they call, including Phil, probably the one hardest on Kobe, to run the plays for the last second shots?

you can build around that. it's a risk I'd be willing to take every day and twice on Sunday.

[KB21]

I believe San Antonio is a team that is built upon the team concept. Tim Duncan is a superstar player, but he is a superstar that doesn't go outside the team concept to "get his".

[Weez]

I agree, but like you said Duncan is a superstar, the best in the NBA in many's minds. two disclaimers.

a) they play within the team, and Duncan generally does as well. But the heirarchy is there. period. you know Duncan's number one and everyone else is not higher than number two. If a player, aka Parker, is lighting it up or having a mismatch etc., they'll let that player continue...but as soon as things starts to go awry, it's back to Duncan. LA isn't that way.

b) in general, almost always, it's much harder for a post player to play outside the system and likewise much easier and tempting for a guard who can handle the ball/bring it up court to do so. Not only is the temptation there for the guard, as the ball's in his hands, but the other players have to get the ball to the guy in the post (part of the reason it's Kobe hwo takes the last second shots). You can't just in bound it to shaq or duncan or even KG (most of the time) at the 3pt line coming out of a timeout and say "go to work"

[DominiqueWilkins]

Ok so if we sign Kobe we need to build a team around him, which is common sense. I think Kobe is a better leader than T-Mac, and I don't think the Hawks will drop as low as the Magic have. Kobe and T-Mac share alot of the same qualties, but I feel Kobe overall is a better leader.

The Magic built a horrible team around T-Mac, and now are in a bind.

That is one of the mistakes you don't make during the process. You don't jump the gun to sign players you hope will get along with your star.

The Spurs have done a wonderful job each year to complete Tim Duncan, and this years ranks at the top due to David Robinson not being around.

There are players the Hawks could go after this offseason that would work very well with Kobe.

I say sign Kobe as long as the Hawks are willing to make a game plain each year to sign the right players.

[Plainview1981]

Still got the same view? Kobe is worth more than anybody

that has ever played for this team. Sure as heck is worth

more than Dwight Howard or Josh Smith.

[Weez]

holy [censored]. not only did hots agree with me, a somewhat rare occasion....but on this matter, one that most (unexplicably imo) don't....interesting.

[Diesel]

The main problem is this.... If we get Kobe, we have to build around him. In LA, Phil fits everybody into the triangle. That's why Kobe, Malone, and Payton have so many problems. Malone has been more than a pick setting PF. Payton has to have transition and the triangle doesn't give that. As for Kobe, he's doing his best Jordan imitation, however, with a dominant big man, the triangle is different than it was in Chicago, so Kobe's offense is not always showcased.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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I think Kobe is a better leader than T-Mac, and I don't think the Hawks will drop as low as the Magic have.

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This is simply not true. Kobe has never been a leader in fact, he's more of a self centered antagonist than a leader. It's a common mistake to make to call someone who can be clutch a leader... Those are two different things. The things we know about Kobe. He doesn't socialize with his teammates. On the court he can be selfish. For the first three years, they called him showboat because his play was all about him. The ticky tack mess that he keeps up with Shaq, Phil, and Tex explains his personality....... He's a basketball diva. There are reports that Kobe would let his HS team lose so he could bail them out. Some say that he's grown out of that, however, we saw him do it this year... When people commented that he shot too much, he purposely went out and passed up shots to allow the Lakers get in a hole.

Kobe is not a leader. The only reason I would want Kobe in Atl is because he would guarantee us some National attention. However, I would love to have Tmac. Tmac is a player who is not selfish. When Grant Hill was healthy, Tmac had no problem sharing the spotlight. I can only imagine what would happen with a TMac/Howard combo!!!

[cyman3]

did u know that most of assists to SHAQ comes from KOBE?

not Fisher, not Malone, not Payton

but Kobe.

did u see the game yesterday? he was on fire, but passed the ball when he was doubled team to the likes of Malone/Shaq.

the dudes a winner... wants to win and has that desire. he also plays better D than Tracy McGrady... however, i do think McGrady has better offense (slightly).

[Admin]

Kobe is a CLUTCH player. He has won how many games in the final minute of the 4th in his career? How many has T-Mac won. T-Mac blames his teammates for losses, blames his coach for losing, blames fans for not coming out, etc. He is a whiner. Kobe is going through a crazy time in his personal life and still comes in last minute and leads the Lakers to victory time and again. He is a FAR better defensive player than T-Mac and when the game is on the line there is no doubt in my mind which one of them I want with the ball. Offensive output wise they are about equal, but on the whole Kobe does far more for his team than T-Mac has ever done and ever will do.

[Diesel]

The nuimbers don't do all the explaining.... Shaq's Father on Kobe

early on

It's not surprising that Kobe gets more assists than any of the PGs... In the triangle, the SG or SF will have more assists. The PGs job is to be ready to shoot the big three when the Ball comes his way... Look over the history of Phil's triangle:

Paxon, Kerr, Fisher, Payton... None of these guys led their team in assists..>I'm sure... It's by design.

The real question is why is it that nobody likes to play with Kobe?

Have you ever heard of a player that did more than just tolerate Kobe? It's a lot of toleration going on because Kobe don't play team ball... He definitely don't play within the system... and that's why he and Shaq Clash Why he and Payton Clash, why he and Phil Clash and why he and Tex Clash...

[Diesel]

Tmac would be equally as devastating if he had a great cast around him. When there are other players for the defense to concentrate on, it makes being clutch a little easier.... Kobe has never HAD to be the man all the time....

Tmac has.

[cyman3]

c'mon D... Malone/Phil Jackson clash all the time, same with Payton/Phil Jackson

and we all know that Jackson isint impressed with Shaq's weight or his endurance.

as for Shaq's father defending Shaq... uhm.. thats kinda expected, dont u think? wat if Kobes father defended him? does that mean KOBES right? after all, his father played in the NBA so he prob knows more about this game than shaqs father.

as far as nobody likin KOBE... look, Shaq doesnt look Kobe but u put 2 of them on a team and ur bound to win 3-4 championships.

As long as u win, tahts the bottom line. i dont care if the guys hate each other on the team... as long as u come out to play, play hard, and get the W... as a fan, im happy.

the bottom line is this- Kobe is a winner... he has talent that is only matched with very few in this league. Hes always a top 5 or top 10 MVP candidate. He plays with heart and desire. He plays hard on both ends of the floor. Hes also a 2nd team all-defensive team player. The dude knows how to finish off games. The guy has championship experience.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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as far as nobody likin KOBE... look, Shaq doesnt look Kobe but u put 2 of them on a team and ur bound to win 3-4 championships.

As long as u win, tahts the bottom line. i dont care if the guys hate each other on the team... as long as u come out to play, play hard, and get the W... as a fan, im happy.

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Interesting but this is not the question. The question was/is is Kobe a leader... The answer is no. He doesn't get along with anyone and he's selfish. Those facts are undisputed. The reason it's important is what happens if Kobe comes to Atlanta. The truth is that we couldn't rely on him to be a leader because he has never shown leadership. In our team building we would have to account for that and get someone on the team who was able to lead...

He could still be clutch, he could still put up 25/5/5... However, he's not leadership material. He's too much into Kobe.

[Weez]

firstly, you're holding things against kobe from when he was a rookie guy, trying to prove his worth to a talented team with Jones, Shaq, NVE etc...it's relavent, but not tremendously so. He wants to be the man, all the time/when it counts, and that's what gets him into trouble sometimes with his teammates. But like I said, he's generally pretty public when he messes up, takes the criticism.

The thing I reallly don't[] understand is your blind defense of TMac as a "leader." You're talking about the same TMac who sat out the last ten games or so of the year, more or less because he was a little banged up, tired of losing, and didn't think it worth his effort? His coach, Doc, forced the trade of hometown favorite Armstrong for the primary reason of trying to make TMac step up as the leader of the team, both in play, in voice, and in the locker room. What happened? Worst record of the year. Things didn't change when Doc left, so it's hard to put the blame squarely on him for bad coaching. He routinely sat out games this year, and, despite winning the scoring title at nearly 3ppg less than last year...his team was last. I'm sorry, but I don't see any other player of TMac's status or abilities doing that poorly. Hurt his stock a lot imo...and I don't see how you can't at least own up to some of this, other than the fact that you rarely/almost never accept being wrong about a previous post and love to hate certain players and get high on others....like Foyle and TMac.

[Weez]

"The truth is that we couldn't rely on him to be a leader because he has never shown leadership."

he's definitely shown it on the court and there are hints, aka what he apparently says during halftimes/games, that he does exhibite these characterisitics.

You also have to take into acount this simple fact: unlike most teams, the Lakers have a coach who draws much publicity and notoritity. He's a leader of the team that many coaches aren't, not in that way, to the media, the fans, etc. Then you have Shaq, who was there before Kobe and is still there....so say Kobe just accepted being second fiddle...he'd be 30+ before he had the chance to lead. He wants to make the most of the opportunity, and I give him credit for that. I'm not saying that he's done it all in the right manner, or always been effective, but at least he's trying to wrestle control/leadership....and backs it up with his play. Did you ever consider that if he didn't do some of the things he does, that he'd be third on the chewing line as far as who anyone listens to concerning all matters and that that situation would exist for the entire first decade of hisNBA life? It's not a situation that many superstars with thaat talent are placed in...

[Weez]

you say he's too much into Kobe, and forgive me for the subsequent posts (which I usually hate and avoid)...but he believes that he's the best player on in the league, not just his team. If he becomes satiated with second fiddle, all the time, for 10 years in the NBA....his game wouldn't be where it is. I don't think Shaq would have the dedication to do something like work on shooting left handed, and even try to play that way, when he couldnt use his right arm. Time off would be coming. That's leadership man, dedication...and yet you say he's being too into Kobe in doing so I guess.