What are Bogut's weaknesses.

[Guest Walter]

It's here too, the 6'5" Sf Bogut was "guarding". Funny stuff.

W

[Wretch]

Quote:

---

I will agree with you that he is not a "sure" thing. Yet I for one do not see many "sure" things in this draft.

---

Neither do I and I've been saying that for I don't know how long.

That being said, I don't like Williams or Paul because of what I think Bogut can't do. I like these guys because of what they CAN do - and that's run a ballclub. I'd like to see us take a top prospect who's primary responsibility is making others better.

I'd like to see what these guys can do with guys like Al, Chill, and Smove catching their passes.

[Diesel]

BTW Walt.

Thomas plays PF. And he scored most of his points while Bogut was supposed to be trying to stop him.

So is it that Bogut can't guard smaller players?

Is that not expected?

What happens on a switch?.... 2 points!

Makes me miss Deke.

[Wretch]

No Walter, you can't say that. You can't say that he is the best of a pool of unsure talent. Nor can you say there is anything unsure about him because, in your own words, there are "MAYBE" one or two "liabilities" to Bogut's game" and neither will be an issue for him on the NBA level.

Thus, your opinion is that Bogut is a sure thing, like the Duncans, Iversons, LeBrons, Magics, Zekes, and Yaos before him. He has no flaws in his game, nothing to be concerned about, and everything about him will translate to the NBA level.

And I do not agree with that.

[TheRedStripes]

Quote:

---

Thomas plays PF. And he scored most of his points while Bogut was supposed to be trying to stop him.

So is it that Bogut can't guard smaller players?

Is that not expected?

What happens on a switch?.... 2 points!

---

are you kidding me? man...i dont understand your trip man...Thomas is 6'5 205, bogut is 7' 245, it doesnt matter if the guy was playing power forward...being penciled in at that position doesnt change your physical attributes, a guy that size is going to be quicker than a guy Boguts size...so yeah he can drive around Bogut, and no there arent any 6'5 205 power forwards in the NBA and no Bogut wont be guarding guys that size, if a switch happens and he ends up on a guy that size, obviously it was a bad switch, and pretty much any 7 footer in the NBA no matter how good they are will get beaten to the basket by a 6'5 205 guy...you need to give it a rest

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

No Walter,

you

can't say that. You can't say that he is the best of a pool of unsure talent. Nor can you say there is anything unsure about him because, in your own words, there are "

MAYBE

" one or two "liabilities" to Bogut's game" and neither will be an issue for him on the NBA level.

---

Are you telling me what I can't say?

Quote:

---

Thus, your opinion is that Bogut is a

sure thing

, like the Duncans, Iversons, LeBrons, Magics, Zekes, and Yaos before him. He has no flaws in his game, nothing to be concerned about, and everything about him will translate to the NBA level.

---

Now you're telling me what I did say.

So let me get this straight. I can't say what I said, but you can say for me what I didn't say.

...

I think I said what I said rather clearly. Bogut is the best of the unsure. We all are unsure about this draft, so Wretch, will you grant me that without telling me what I can't say and then saying what I didn't say for me?

Why do I think he is the best? Because his uncertainties are minor and can be overcome by his rare and valuable attributes/talents (i.e. big/good hands, B-ball IQ, passing and court vision, etc.). I don't think Paul can overcome his height/short arms & his inability to defend the Pg position. He MAY be able to overcome his average scoring ability, but given the other two liabilities he's not the best of the unsure.

Translate that into what you would have me say will ya.

W

[Guest Walter]

..."sure thing" to you then you were right and I will insist you post for me from here on out.

W

[Wretch]

That'd make about as much sense as the bullsh#t you are trying to pass off here as logic. You can't sit here and tell me that the guy has one maybe two issues, and downplay them to the point were they are relative non-issues...then say at the same time, you're unsure about him. Or rather, he is the best out of all the unsure players.

How exactly does that work, Wally? How do you say that a guy MAYBE has one issue, that really isn't a problem at all, and then say you are unsure about him?

First, you're sure he'll have no problems in the NBA...not for lack of athleticism, lateral quickness, or a true test in college and imply that he's as close to a sure thing as they come. Then you say he's the best of the unsure things. Which is it?

Bogut is either a player with weaknesses like everyone else (and we know what those are) or he is a sure thing...like Duncan, LeBron, or Magic. Which is it? If he is a player with weaknesses that someone looking to draft him should be concerned about...then what are those weaknesses if they are not what I (and others) have been saying all along.

So again, if you are so sure that he has no flaws (or very minor flaws at worst), then how can he belong to a pool of "unsure players"? He can't. A guy with no flaws has to be flawless. You can't say that he's the best of the unsure, if you can't define anything usure about him.

You can't defend every single weakness a guy has by saying, that's not a problem for him...and then say, he's the the best of a pool of unsure players. Not unless you want to look like a biased ass. Though, you seem to have no problem with that...

The problem is, you want to talk him up like he's a complete player with no flaws, but you don't want to commit to it because you know it sounds foolish.

How far'd you get on that count BTW?

[Plainview1981]

and from the few others I've read, it's pretty much in line. We'd be STUPID to not take him. Tons of physical skill AND the attitude/motivation that guys like Divac and Mihm have NEVER had. Fuhghetabouthit!"

Motivations the big key. In the Lakers games I've seen

guys play Mihm can actually get the job done when they

put in the effort. But it's hard to get it done when

you do not. I thought Mihm was just a big stuff in

Cleveland.... But AT TIMES he has showed otherwise

with the Lakers.

[Nicholasp27]

Quote:

---

Bogut is either a player with weaknesses like everyone else (and we know what those are) or he is a sure thing...like Duncan, LeBron, or Magic.

---

i don't get why u keep saying this...

lebron had weaknesses when he came in...but ur saying he's a sure thing...so why can't bogut have his weaknesses and be less of a sure thing than lebron?

[Wretch]

Because people talked about LeBron's weaknesses. People talked about what could be problems for him. People had concerns - and few people tried to defend each and every aspect of those weaknesses. You weren't crazy, biased, or favoring Melo or Darko if you said there was something about LeBron that worried you.

So my point, firstly, is that Bogut is a player just like every other to enter the draft. He has weaknesses, and those weak areas have been defined. I have said all along that this is a very hard draft to call with all of the top talent having issues - it's the very first thing that I said in this ridiculous Bogut debate. However, I wouldn't call him the best of a pool of unsure talent because he has questions just like everyone else and he is no more proven than anyone else. If you like him, then you think that he is simply a better fit for the club.

...and I can guarantee you one thing. 5 years from now, there will be more than one very good player to come out of this draft. I've got my eyes on who I think the top 3 are and I've got my pick for who I think can help our team the most.

Secondly...and more importantly, you are either a Tim Duncan prospect or you are not. There is no in between. When a sure-fire #1 thing comes into the draft, there is no debate. None. Few or no questions at all.

There wasn't much to talk about what LeBron couldn't do. Everybody wanted him and everybody knew he was going #1. People were just nit-picking to find SOMETHING wrong with him. The only real question was, can he live up to the hype. That's because LeBron was a sure thing.

You can say that people are nitpicking with Bogut. I can buy that. But can you say Bogut is a sure thing? If you can't then you've got to list something wrong with him other than he has "maybe" one problem. Otherwise, you are putting him in a category with the guys who come into the league and have no issues whatsoever.

...and that is what people are doing. Putting him into a class that he doesn't belong to and looking at other people like they are clueless if they bring up why he isn't any more proven or perfect than any of the top prospects.

...and if you start listing his weak areas, then you are proving my point from the outset. Which is that everybody has issues in this draft and there is no clear cut #1 guy.

[Guest Walter]

That's alot of words but they don't change the fact that IMO:

1: While everyone has potential "weaknesses", Bogut has fewer of them

2) The potential "weaknesses" he does have can be compensated for through other attributes (rather than by teamates like the inability to defend your position/own man requires)

3) Big men develop later than guards

4) & Bogut was playing as a Sf at least until age 14 from a report here and didn't compete in the american game until two years ago. Thus, despite his fast progress to date, he has alot to learn (called potential) about how to develop and use his body as a post-player and the American game.

Again, please do not tell me what I can't say and then say for me what I didn't say.

W

[Wretch]

I love this...

Quote:

---

That's alot of words but they don't change the

fact

that

IMO

:

---

The fact that in your opinion...*lol* That's just outstanding. And it is more of you trying to defy logic by making equivalents out of polar opposites.

Bogut is not a sure thing, and you know and everybody else knows it. However, you downplay his every weakness as if he is. You have a serious bias for him. So much in fact that you are trying to separate him from the rest of this draft class.

I know that you have compiled a statistical comparision of what he has done against taller and bigger players. I applaud your effort and your devotion to your opinion. You may be right *gasp* that Bogut will do just fine. I never said that he wouldn't.

BUT...that's because I haven't seen definitive proof one way or the other. No matter how you split your breakdown or how favorably they come out, nor how tall 3 or 4 people may be...the FACT remains that that conference is extremely weak. There is nobody out there that can put up a real fight against Bogut. So, telling me that he did + or - this vs. anybody out there does not tell me that his weaknesses (which he does have) will not be exploited in the NBA.

As for Paul...

Your stats do not tell me anything. All they are is an average of what Paul has done vs. what people have done against Paul. That includes all the bad games and all the good games. But did you see ANY of these games? Do you know that it was one player causing him to score less? Did Paul TRY to shoot the ball and miss (IOW more FG attempts and more misses)? Or did he simply choose not to take it at a 6'5" PG and got his teammates involved for the winS?

Do your stats take into account that Paul scored 25 points and 6 assists against a 6'4" 220lb DEFENSIVE PG from GW? That he was 10 of 12 from the FT line while no one else in the game, not even the post players, took more than 6 attempts? While the opposing guard scored 1 over his average of 8 points?

What about the 23 points, 12 assists, and 6 rebounds that Paul put up against 6'2" 190lb starter for Texas? Who got a whopping 3 points over his average against Paul. Does it say anything about the 7 trips that Paul made to the FT line, making 6, which is more than anyone else save for their 6' 245lbs PF/C?

What about the 23 points, 5 assists and, 7 REBOUNDS against the 6’2”/190lb and 6’2”/225lb starting backcourt for Texas? What about their combined 13points and 5 rebounds vs. Paul 5 points less than their season averages…?

Does it say anything about his 26points, 8 assists, and 6 rebounds vs National Champion starters (in this game) 6’4”/198lb Ray Felton, 6’4”/207lb. Rashad McCants, and 6’5”/192lb Juan Manual? Felton got 4 more points than his average at a whopping 16, McCants had a horrifying 19 over his average of 16, and Manual had…2. And for all their AMAZING scoring on Wake’s weak, small, non-defense playing backcourt, the #1 team in the country, one of the top 3 scoring teams in the nation, lost the f#cking game by 13 points. …because Chris Paul put it on them.

What about the 23points and he put up against #7 Duke and their backcourt of 6’2”/185lbs and 6’3”/185lbs? Who was also a combined for 11 points below their scoring average and 9 fouls between them trying to guard Paul…

What about the 27points, 6 rebounds, and 9 of 10 trips to the line against this same #7 team? Where by the same backcourt scored a whopping ONE POINT over their season averages…? Reddick was the starter in this game, at the 2, and he poured in nearly 40 points…but he wasn’t Paul’s assignment, nor is he anything short of a guy who can light up a basket when he feels like it.

Jarret Jack at 6’3”/202lbs. didn’t shut him down in a 7 point loss at Wake. Paul scored 2 over his average, got 4 rebounds, and took 8 trips to the line. Only Wake’s starting center went to the line more…and that was 3 more times. In contrast, Paul went to the line twice as many times as Tech’s 7 foot Aussie center. Jack scored 8 more points than usual, but got half as many rebounds as Paul. Regardless…THEY LOST.

NC State’s backcourt of 6’3”/200lbs and 6’2/178, had 6 less points than their averages while they both pulled down 4 less rebounds than their averages. Paul on the other hand, had just as many boards as them combined and dished out 5 more assists than both of them combined. And Wake beat them.

In a 15 point smackdown over Maryland, Paul scored a horrid 1 point less than his average against 6’3”/194lb Gilchrest, 6’5”/195lb. McCray, and 6’5”/190lb Strawberry. While all three of them combined for 6 points. Your analysis does not take into account that Paul had one less rebound THAN ALL THREE COMBINED and he went to the line 11 times…which is ELEVEN MORE TIMES THAN ALL THREE COMBINED at 0 for 0.

Average these heights and weights. These guys aren’t bigger than the top 20 scoring PGs in the NBA (have a look) and even the top 10 PGs have an average height of about 6’2”/187lbs. More importantly, none of these jacknuts could stop Wake Forest from winning on a nightly basis – which is how a PG is rated.

Your stats and your opinion of Paul is loaded against a bias for Bogut and a statistical average against EVERYONE that Paul has faced. Some games guys are going to score more, some games they are not. None of your statistics takes into account what happened in EACH game…where CLEARLY you have to shut down Paul to stop Wake Forest. It doesn’t matter what the averages say…because Paul had PLENTY of great games and nobody stopped him from getting his job done VERY consistently. There are few games where Paul was simply shut down…but he made up for it at the line or with the pass.

Like a 4-11 FG game vs. Tech where he went 7-8 from the line, got 7 assists, and 17 points (2 over his average)…and they won.

Lke a 4-10 game vs. Virginia where he went 11-12 from the line and got 21 points (6 over his average) and 9 assists…and they won.

Like a 1-3 game he had against VA Common where he went 14-15 from the line and got 16 points...and they won.

At 6’ or 5’11” the guy has issues with his height, I never said that he didn’t. But he is a top prospect in this draft because of his performances and his team’s performances. Your loaded stats can’t take that away from him. If defense and his height were such a concern, he would be listed late lottery to mid 1st rounder like so many short PGs before him. But he is not.

I am not saying he won’t have problems on the pro level any more than I am saying Bogut will. What I am saying, and have been saying all along, is that EVERYBODY in this draft has issues and there is no clear cut #1 guy. Bogut has issues, we’ve defined them, and so does Paul.

My choice, seeming as how there is no clear cut #1, is for a PG that can run the sh#t out of this team…and my choice isn’t affected by any sort of bias.

[Peoriabird]

Quote:

---

Does it say anything about his 26points, 8 assists, and

6 rebounds

vs National Champion starters (in this game) 6’4”/198lb Ray Felton,

---

Raymond Felton isn't 6'4"

[Wretch]

That's a mistake. My bad, I was typing pretty fast. He's 6'1" and still bigger than Paul and UNC is still one of the top scoring teams in the nation, and Wake still won the game.

...and takes away from nothing Paul has done.

[BOShforRoy]

I think the more important question is anybody else in this draft going to be better than Bogut? It's hard to answer that question but I see only three or four players who will atleast be on the same level as Bogut one day; Gerald green, Marvin Williams, maybe Chris paul and maybe Martynas A.

[Nicholasp27]

Quote:

---

But did you see ANY of these games? Do you know that it was one player causing him to score less?

---

walt has stated NUMEROUS times that he is a fan of wake and watched many of their games...

[TheRedStripes]

man its funny how you guys on the Paul against Bogut bandwagon are using single games against a years worth of games, its really ridiculous, you should just stop right now, do you even like Paul that much? or are you just doing this for the sake of arguing against Bogut? face it...Bogut is the clear cut no.1 pick in this draft, everyone knows it except you few weirdos on this site that continue to ignore all logical reason, every mock has Bogut at no.1 hell even Josh Smith said he wanted Bogut, so give it a rest

[chillzatl]

He's trying to be a voice of reason among the hard line anti-boguts and the fanatical pro-boguts. Which is perfectly fine. We all have our favorites and anti-favorites.

[Wretch]

I'm not on a Paul against anybody bandwagon. I just don't think Bogut is a clear cut #1. And as far as using individual games...that's funny...

Because the kid led Wake to the #1 standing in the country at one point and led them to quite a decent record overall. And that would be throughout the year.

The whole point was to show that the kid CAN score and that he CAN do it against bigger PGs. It's also to show that not EVERY game he was thrashed by bigger PGs and not EVERY game he was shut down. He's a top prospect in this draft and I like him.

What's really ridiculous is this bias for Bogut. I like him. He and Paul are my top choices and I'd be happy if we took him. However, I am not going to sit here and say he is without problems.