A fair comparison

[thecampster]

In reading all the crap written about our team and in response specifically to Diesel about how poor the Marvin Williams pick is, I decided to compare the state of the hawks in a fantasy basketball matchup against a last year playoff team I am familliar with. As some of you know, 2 years ago I let the Atl and moved back to Chicago. Let compare the Hawks, roster spot to roster spot with last year's number 4 seed Bulls.

Point Guard: Joe Johnson/Tyrone Lue - Kirk Hinrich and Ben Gordon.

Knowing little about Johnson's ability to pass, the distribution part of being a point guard would go to Hinrich. Defensively you have to believe the 6'8 Johnson will give every point he plays fits. Few will find the ability to shoot over him and few will find the ability stop him from shooting over them. I think this will be the case all year. I'd take Gordon over Lue any day but Johnson's height creates all sorts of problems defensively for these 2 points and so using the 10-0 scoring system for points I'd rate this a 6-4 win for the Hawks.

Shooting Guard - Josh Childress/Salim - Duhon/Pargo/Scrub of the week. Don't get me wrong, Duhon and even pargo played well for the Bulls last year but I don't see either being able to sniff the jock strap of Childress of Stoudamire on the court. I watch both teams guys as often as a I can Duhon would have to call protective services of the beating he'd receive one on one with either of these players. Although he can pass better than Childress and Pargo can shoot while open, neither is as big/strong as Childress. Salim is probably the most underrated player in the draft and as Smith was our big steal at 17 last year, Salim would have been lottery material had his 4 year past reputation hadn't been blown up. This is an 8-2 win for the Hawks.

Small Forward - Josh Smith/Marvin Williams - Luol Deng/Nocioni. Mad I love Nocioni's game. He is what Chris Crawford should have been. Deng is a sure fire steady player. That said, Defensively Josh shuts both down offensively. This is the classic Defensive struggle. Were Josh to find his offensive game, this would be a big win for us but as yet he hasn't. Williams is an unknown with crazy athletism that will get him by but in an NBA game where the talent is much more even than in college I see alot of rookie mistakes. Still he has the athleticism to feed off of his team mates. I call this matchup due to Smith a draw. 5-5.

Power Forward - Al Harrington/Batiste - Othella Harrington/Tyson Chandler. I have no Idea here. Batiste is unknown but a potential rebounding/scoring beast or a foul machine. Take your pick. Harrington (Al) is much more reliable that Harrington (Othella). Chandler is a rebounding machine with dunk and blocks that change a game. 7-3 win for the bulls.

Center - Pachulia/Edwards/Collier - Curry/A.Davis.

This one takes a great deal in to account. So given that Curry is healthy and able to play, and that Pachulia is our starter. Curry is an offensive monster. Pachulia is well rounded but not Curry. As a backup, Davis is just better. More experienced, savvy, a super hard worker. The only problem the Bulls would face against the Hawks is their ability to defend. All three big men can step away from the basket to shoot. It a small advantage but one that has to be mentioned. The fact that I have to mention Collier in the mix speaks volumes to how much better the Bulls are here as a whole. This is an 8-2 win for the Bulls.

All other players on any given NBA night are inconsequential.

Were I, as Diesel has repeatedly suggested, to change this to replace Salim with Deron Williams or another point and replace Marvin with the best remaining big man at #31, we would be no better at PF/C and no Better at PG/SG. More importantly we wouldn't have Marvin Williams on the Bench learning to put his athleticism to good NBA use just like the Josh's did last year.

[Nicholasp27]

also, salim may be very well be our ben gordon with a better 3pt shot...he won 6 of the 30ish games last season with buzzer beaters

[Diesel]

Why not try comparing what we have now, vs. what we would have if we had choose Deron Williams... Doesn't that seem more logical??

D Will/Lue/Delk

JJ/SS

JC/Donta

Al/Smoove

Zaza/John/Collier

vs.

Lue/Delk

JJ/SS

JC/MWill

Al/Smoove

Zaza/John/Collier

Bottom line, had we gotten DWill, we would have taken care of our PG position for the next 8-10 yrs.

However, with MWill, we now have a Logjam of talent that means somebody will be traded and we will not get good value in return because the NBA doesn't give good value on wingmen.

Camp, I don't think you want to really have a true comparison of my argument. I think you need to continue to build those straw castles to knock down... Because EVEN in your own heart, you know we made a mistake picking MWill over either of the PGs.

[AHF]

I like Diesel's method of comparison better, even though I expect to see a JJ/JC backcourt rather than TL/JJ. I think the position by position numerical rating comparison is just really artificial.

[Nicholasp27]

that's not a fair comparison

if we had drafted deron/paul, bk would NOT have paid all that for jj...he traded/paid for jj because he BELIEVES jj can play POINT...if we had drafted deron/paul, he wouldn't have spent that money/assets on jj AND jj wouldn't have asked to be traded here...he wanted to be here to be the pg and the leader

[f_town]

to argue that M Will will be a good player in this league, because Diesel knows from college stats manipulation(!) that he will be surpassed by Paul and/or Deron

its pointless to say that we might think that JJ might pull off the PG position fairly well, because Diesel already knows (before even 1 single preseason game has been played), that he will be our SG instead

in conclusion, there is no reason to even watch the team this year, because we have ALREADY made critical and unredeemable errors which will send this team and season to its doom!

And for this, we have to thank Diesel, our self-appointed Nostradumus of the NBA!...ALL HAIL!

Where would be without him I ask?

Oh yea...we would be with 1 less pompous, self-aggrandizing windbag! OH NO!

good luck with it

[djcorley]

AMEN!!!!

[Diesel]

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he traded/paid for jj because he BELIEVES jj can play POINT.

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Nope, I disagree here. He acquired JJ because JJ was a top tier free agent that wanted to play here. If you're comparing JJ to JC at the Sg, we still take JJ easily. He said he believes JJ can be our PG BECAUSE it really justifies his pick of Marvin. I suspect that if we are in the lottery next year, our target will be either Rondo or Brewer... You just don't put your best shooter at the PG posiition.

[Diesel]

What makes me so right...

Is you don't have to argue about Marvin being a good player. All you have to do is determine if Marvin will be Much much better than Smoove or JC at the Sf position.

of JC, Smoove, and Marvin, eventually, one will be the odd man out. That's my point. So it's not a matter of Marvin vs. the Pgs because they win all day long because of our NEED... We went into the draft needing a PG or C. We came out with our 6th wing. So in my eyes, Marvin has to be a serious upgrade to Smoove or Chillz and what they could have done.

[Nicholasp27]

how many times do bk and jj say jj's gonna play the point for you to believe it?

will you believe it after he plays pg in preseason?

what about after he plays in the season opener? will it take 5 games? 10? 40? 82? at what point will you concede that the plan is to play jj at the point?

[djcorley]

The only teams in the NBA that draft for need are the teams that are WINNING. It's many GM's rule be it in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB...you take what you believe to be the best player available who fits into your system....

Let's face fact...trades are one of the ways that you build a winner and you can't trade if you don't have expendable parts that other teams want!

You aquire talent and if a player that fits your mold becomes available and when I say available it could be by draft, it could be by trade or it could be via free agency...Point is you have to have abundant talent and spendable cash.

You can argue all you like about how bad the Marvin pick is...truth is...it's a great pick. So is picking up JJ.

Competition brings out the best in competitors! That's a fact. Let the decsion on who stays or go's...who plays and who sits be played out on the court. All of those guys are going to be better because of it and the cream will rise to the top. You can't go wrong by picking a 6'9" guy with a 7'3" wingspan...can rebound...can defend...can handle...and can shoot from range. Oh, and who's also only 19 years and may end up growing another couple of inches ala KG when he came into the league at 6'10"

The Draft is about projections especially in this day and age...their wasn't a Shaq or Duncan or KG. These days guys come into the league so early that it's almost like playing the lottery and I think Marvin has a great chance to become a very, very good player in the league for a long time.

[Lascar78]

you should know by now that facts and reality have never gotten in the way of diesel's ego

[thecampster]

There's a reason I won't try that comparison.

I will compare them based on their projected positions, not Diesel's projected positions. And this is no slight on you. I've told you before I appreciate your posts a ton and respect your opinion a whole heap. Unfortunately you can say "mark my words" and "you can write it down" but that doesn't change the fact that JJ is currently slated to play the point.

My comparison is based on their currently projected positions.

Had we drafted Deron, our point need would be filled. Like you, I agree he is probably the best of the point guard group. The extra money under the cap would have most probably gone for a center, not JJ. Childress is already at the 2. You scenerio of Deron/JJ doesn't work because it pushes one of the Josh's out of the starting lineup which isn't in the plans. To Compare your scenario is fictional.

The only real comparison is Deron as the point, josh and josh at the 2/3, Al Harrington at the 4 and whatever 4 we could throw money at that would sign.

Now here's the problem with this. Al Harrington is no longer trade bait. Without the extra Swing man in Marvin being brought along slowly, there is no way/need to trade Harrington for a need later.

I say get over it. Live in the now. For better or worse JJ is the point - period. Until the coaching staff says otherwise quit posting that he's the 2. Childress is the 2. Smith the 3 Harrington the 4 and most probably Pachulia the 5. Every time you post that Marvin is a mistake and JJ can't play the 1 you set yourself up to eat serious crow. There is no undoing this path. They are on it. Get on board and for better or worse cheer your fool head off every time Joe Johnson brings the ball up court for the Hawks.

[Packfill]

Quote:

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There's a reason I won't try that comparison.

I will compare them based on their projected positions, not Diesel's projected positions. And this is no slight on you. I've told you before I appreciate your posts a ton and respect your opinion a whole heap. Unfortunately you can say "mark my words" and "you can write it down" but that doesn't change the fact that JJ is currently slated to play the point.

My comparison is based on their currently projected positions.

Had we drafted Deron, our point need would be filled. Like you, I agree he is probably the best of the point guard group. The extra money under the cap would have most probably gone for a center, not JJ. Childress is already at the 2. You scenerio of Deron/JJ doesn't work because it pushes one of the Josh's out of the starting lineup which isn't in the plans. To Compare your scenario is fictional.

The only real comparison is Deron as the point, josh and josh at the 2/3, Al Harrington at the 4 and whatever 4 we could throw money at that would sign.

Now here's the problem with this. Al Harrington is no longer trade bait. Without the extra Swing man in Marvin being brought along slowly, there is no way/need to trade Harrington for a need later.

I say get over it. Live in the now. For better or worse JJ is the point - period. Until the coaching staff says otherwise quit posting that he's the 2. Childress is the 2. Smith the 3 Harrington the 4 and most probably Pachulia the 5. Every time you post that Marvin is a mistake and JJ can't play the 1 you set yourself up to eat serious crow. There is no undoing this path. They are on it. Get on board and for better or worse cheer your fool head off every time Joe Johnson brings the ball up court for the Hawks.

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I disagree. Under Diesels plan, Harrington is still tradeable at the deadline if Smoove develops into a power forward. Depth would be provided in next years draft - where the Hawks would potentially have multiple picks.

[Diesel]

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The only teams in the NBA that draft for need are the teams that are WINNING. It's many GM's rule be it in the NBA, NFL, NHL, MLB...you take what you believe to be the best player available who fits into your system....

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I think more correct is that there is a specific time to draft for need and a specific time to draft for potential. More importantly, there's a specific place to draft for potential.

I argue that most of the time, potential type players are picked after the first three picks. Rarely is a first three pick used to pick up a player that is potential and more importantly a player that plays a position that you already have.

I think the King of examples that some would try to cite is Darko. Good, let's talk about Darko... I would say that Darko was a pick made because of need. Detroit needed frontcourt help. Remember Okur was about to be an uFA, they had a mess of players that wasn't helping. Cliffy Robinson was old. Their center was Ben Wallace. They did pass up a none need based pick in Mello because they were satisfied with Tayshun Prince.

Us on the otherhand.. Our pick says to me that we was not happy with Smoove at the 3...

[chillzatl]

You can sit ther eand say "BK signed JJ because he THINKS he can play PG". While it's a true statement, BK also knows that JJ CAN play SG. There is no think about it. Had we drafted a PG, I see absolutely no reason to think that he wouldn't have still gone after JJ because everyone knows he can play the 2 and play it extremely well.

We would have been a far more balanced team with far fewer question marks.

[Nicholasp27]

because bk has said time and time again that chill is our SG

he isn't paying 70mil, diaw and 2 firsts to get someone that plays where he wants chill to play...and the owners aren't biting on that either

and anyway, who cares what bk wanted? JJ said he was coming to us because he thinks he's better as pg...period

jj does NOT tell phoenix not to match and jj IS a sun if we get deron/paul

[chillzatl]

"because BK says..." doesn't mean jack.. he's a GM for a professional sports team. it is his duty to not tip his hand. How many times in the history of pro sports has a GM said one thing and then gone on to do the exact opposite? BK, like all GM's says what he has to say at the time.

You forget that JJ wanted out of phoenix before we were ever in the picture. His first priority was to get out of phoenix because he was slighted that they paid Q more money than they were going to offer him.

[Plainview1981]

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he traded/paid for jj because he BELIEVES jj can play POINT.

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Nope, I disagree here. He acquired JJ because JJ was a top tier free agent that wanted to play here. If you're comparing JJ to JC at the Sg, we still take JJ easily. He said he believes JJ can be our PG BECAUSE it really justifies his pick of Marvin. I suspect that if we are in the lottery next year, our target will be either Rondo or Brewer... You just don't put your best shooter at the PG posiition.

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But it just wouldn't be JJ vs. JC...

JJ at SG isn't worth JC/2 1st picks/80 million contract.

Like it or not, JJ isn't that great of a player to be worth

all of that. If JJ fails at PG BK should be fired.

[Diesel]

What if JJ becomes a Ray Allen like Sg... should BK be fired?

I don't expect the experiment of JJ at PG to last long... I think it's merely something he would like to try to keep his thoughts of an all 6'8" team alive. However, I think JJ is the right FA acquisition... A guy who can become for us a star SG. I also believe that JC will be more successful as a Sf... What it means is that we lost an opportunity to get a franchise PG...

Either way you look at it, Marvin is still another Sf on a team filled with them..