Give Chillz some time...

[Diesel]

I was reading what a lot of you were saying about Chillz... About him not being able to shoot? So I went Digging.

Chillz is shooting 45.7% from the field and 100% from 3 pt range.

I'm not going to overemphasize the three point shot because it's meaningless. I think what gets everyone so worked up on Chillz are these three things:

1. His shot is ugly. You would expect that mechanics would make him about a 20% shooter.

2. His FT% is low. In the few opportunities that Chillz has had at the line, his free throws are pitiful.

3. His rebounds are down Last yr, the best part of Chillz game was that he was scrappy and he would come in and get rebounds. I think now with Al and Zaza, we don't get as many rebounds from the Sf position as we did before.

When you talk about Chill needing to be a better shooter, you should realize that Chillz is shooting better than Luol Deng who shoots 41% and better than JSmoove who is shooting 34%.

The question is often, why is Chillz on the floor?

Well, Chillz is getting Steals. He doubles the number of steals of both Smoove, MW, and Deng.

What Chillz needs to do is work on being aggressive with the ball. Chillz does not go to the free throw line enough. Moreover, I think it's Woody's offensive plan that doesn't have set plays for anybody... Our offense needs help. I think in a structured system with a PG who can run it, Chillz and Smoove would do much better.

[frosgrim]

First let me state I think Chilz can be a good NBA player. However, there are some things he really needs to work on to get better.

First and foremost he has to get stronger. His arms are extremely thin and there is almost no muscle tone. Prince is of a similar slight build but he has worked to develop his arm strength over the years. This is exactly what Josh needs to do. With greater arm strength I think his shot might smooth out. Right now it looks like Josh uses his body to get a lot of the lift and power on his shot. With stronger arms and probably stronger core, his shot wouldn't relly on his legs to get the velocity he needs.

Second, he just needs to be confident that he belongs in the NBA. I said this last year when people were all over him, JC is a cerebral player. He needs to know what his role is. Once he knows where he's supposed to be on the court and where the other guys are, then his play will even out and he'll play like he was at the end of last year.

I am not sure JC will be in the starting line up by the end of the year because of Marvin, but if JC can get himself stronger and more comfortable a line up of:

JJ

JC

MW

AH

ZP

looks darn good to me.

Just my two cents.

Frosgrim

[Nicholasp27]

the following 2 things will happen, imo:

a) people on here will NOT give chill time and will continue to trade him, bash him, give up on him

b) by the end of the year (prolly much sooner), chill will show these people why he should stay and he'll be one of our 'untradeables' by many of them this summer

[exodus]

Childress isn't 19. He played 3 years in college an played big minutes his rookie year. He isn't likely to get bigger or shoot considerably better. He certainly won't get faster, which is his big problem.

Boris Diaw is shooting 50% from 3. Does that make him a good 3 point shooter? No. He is 1 of 2. He shot 18% last year which is a true indicator of his form. Same with Childress.

The only player with a shot comparable to Childress is Marion. The big difference is that Marion is very fast/strong and Childress isn't.

Last I looked Childress was averaging 6/3. Both Deng and Iggy are averaging double figures on playoff teams. The numbers don't lie, even if it is early.

[macdaddy]

I agree with most of what you said and I think Chill is an important member of our team. He can rebound, slash, dunk, play good D.

His shooting form isn't going to change. He can get more consistent but by this stage the way you shoot is the way you shoot. The problem is that it starts low. So he will only ever be able to shoot when he's wide open. That doesn't happen much in the nba. But not every player on the team needs to score 20. If he can hit his open shots and do the other things he does well then he'll be great to have around.

You can already see him starting to get better this season. It seems like he went backward from last year but hey its his second year.

[Wretch]

First and foremost, WATCH Childress and you will see the biggest reason why he isn't scoring - he isn't taking shots. He's taken 35 shots TOTAL...which is 6 fewer than Marvin. The only guys shooting the ball less are Ivey, Donta, Batista, and Edwards (with 23). Childress is deferring to everyone else in the offense because it is in his nature. He isn't aggressive...which unfortuneately is what his kind of game is based on. He is a penetrator and a finisher.

Making matters worse, as you said D, Woody isn't running anything for him. In fact, he has relegated Chill to a role which is counter-productive to his skillset. Chill is being used as a utility guy, and until he decides to step up...he's not going to show anyone much - or until he gets traded.

My biggest problem though is just the crowded swing position. All these guys trying to fit in the 3/4 is going to stunt someone's growth. And with JJ being such a good fit at the 2...and Salim looking DAMN good as a compliment...it looks even worse for these guys. And to top it off, Woody has such an infatuation with Lue that he'll be running the midget backcourt with Salim while JJ moves to the 3.

I think the best solution, or move that we can make in the near future, may be to deal someone...at least one person...out of that 3/4 logjam. The problem is just getting equal value.

...and as for Chill's shot...

It's ugly, but he used to nail it in college and he's made a few off the dribble shots. Still, I think it's crazy to try and evaluate him on the few attempts he's made. He's taking 5 shots a game...

1 or 2 are going to be putbacks.

2 are going to be drives to the basket in the halfcourt (because he'll give it up on the break EVERY TIME)

That leaves MAYBE 1 or 2 jump shots a game to evaluate him on...7 games into the season.

Yeah...we can go ahead and write him off...

[exodus]

Let me try and simply this for you.

The NBA is not the developmental league. A starter who is averaging 6/3 and getting burned on the other end should not be starting. Period.

[Wretch]

The word is "simplify"...and to be quite honest, I put no worth in your simple opinion. I'll give you this opinion...say, maybe next year...if Chill decides to shoot the ball more or someone places more emphasis on him in the offense. Right now though, your opinion is simply shortsighted, slanted, and pessimistic - IOW trollish.

The fact of the matter is, the NBA is a developmental league and has been for quite some time. I don't know what NBA you've been watching, but in the NBA that the rest of us watch the vast majority of players that are drafted take a great deal of time to develop. Moreover, it takes more than just the personal development of one player. Most of the time, it takes the right team, the right coach, and sometimes even the right fans.

Which you clearly are NOT of Josh Childress. Which is IMO the biggest problem here.

Secondly, who said anything about starting?

[exodus]

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Secondly, who said anything about starting?

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I did. The reason for this is because he is starting. Although I haven't checked I would say it is a safe bet he is the least productive starting wing in the NBA. Therefore he should be coming off the bench until he "develops".

My opinion is based on his 6/3 production and his lack of D. Your opinion is based on what he might do at some point in the future.

Quote:

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vast majority of players that are drafted take a great deal of time to develop

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And do they start while they are developing or do they get sporadic minutes off the bench?

BTW my keyboard sticks quite a bit and I don't catch all the typos.

[mrhonline]

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Making matters worse, as you said D, Woody isn't running anything for him.

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And why would he? Childress has not shown any consistent ability to do anything offensively outside of five feet from the basket. He's a smart player who rebounds well, but every other aspect of his game is average or below for a wing.

Now, I don't want to "simply give up on Childress," but I'd love to trade him for a more useful player, particularly a similarly talented, young PG like Jameer Nelson.

JJ and Marvin are, IMO, the future of this team at SG and SF. If Childress is not traded, his future with the team is most likely to be as a role player. I've been saying that all along, so it doesn't bother me to keep him as a role player, but a lot of Hawks' fan expected the #6 pick in the draft to be more than just a role player.

I can't blame them, either. To date, Childress has been a disappointment. Hopefully, he'll bulk up and improve his long-distance shot, and become the player many here stubbornly claim he can be.

[pathway23]

Childress is a very smart player why not run a pick and roll with him..I don't see much pick and roll from the Hawks, saw a lot of it from the Knicks and Lakers last night (Knicks didn't execute as well, but anyway) I think that Chill and Lue or Chill and Salim could execute a pick and roll, we know that he can finish on drives, that is what disturbs me the most about him lately, he is not finishing on drives, because he is driving in traffic. he needs to be in plays where he rolls or cuts to the basket. I just don't see much of that...

[Diesel]

I guess if you put a lot of half truths together it becomes believable huh Exodus?

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He played 3 years in college an played big minutes his rookie year. He isn't likely to get bigger or shoot considerably better. He certainly won't get faster, which is his big problem.

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I agree here. He did play 3 yrs of college and big minutes of his rookie year.. I don't think he has to get bigger or shoot differently.

I think a lot are made of his mechanics, however, mechanics and what we won't has nothing to do with his shooting ability. If his mechanics are working for him, then why should he change them... So that it won't be so ugly? Please. We want somebody who will look like Ray Allen shooting the rock, well, that's not a neccessity especially if the ugly shot goes in. From the numbers, the ugly shot goes in more than Luol Deng's shot.

Onto a more interesting sentiment of yours. You mentioned that Chillz wasn't 19 and that he had played 3 yrs of college ball. Tell me. What Rookie player did not progress after turning pro? Does he have to be 19 to show progress? Last time I checked, there were several players, who played 4 yrs in college, came into the pros and SUCKED but progressed as they went along. Let's take Rip Halmilton for example.

His rookie year, He looked worst than Chillz. He had many of the same things said about him that they say about Chillz. Look at him now...

[Diesel]

If the NBA is not a developmental league then we need to trade Marvin, Josh Smith, Salim, Al, Zaza, and JJ too.

Damn, that was a naive statment.

[Diesel]

I think this is one of the main problems also.

We don't have an offense that we can point to and say... OK, they are running this set now. For the most part, it looks like we just get the ball across the line and whoever is in the best scoring position get the ball and tries to score. This works well on the blacktop, but in the NBA game, we need some structure. Part of it is floor generalship, but a bigger part is coaching. We won't win anything if we continue to play one on one basketball every Hawks possession. Teams are showing if they just shut down who's hot, we got nothing else to offer.

[exodus]

You start your best players. You don't start a guy averaging 6/3 in the hope that he gets better.

Are you seriously comparing Childress to Hamilton? Hamilton has the speed to play sg and averaged 18 ppg his second year. Childress is averaging 1/3 of that.

Childress is 3 years older than Smith and Marvin and is less productive than both. No way should he be starting over them.

I'll also give you another quote from your buddy Hollinger:

"Childress came into the league with a rep as a good ballhandler, but he failed to live up to that in his rookie season. He wasn't terribly creative off the dribble and his Assist Ratio was surprisingly poor. Since the Hawks have so few players who can create their own shot, it would be hugely beneficial if he could improve that number this season. He also needs to get better at the defensive end. Childress' Defensive PER was among the worst in the league, and while some of that was a result of playing out of position, he has a ways to go in terms of effort and toughness as well."

If he is averaging 6/3 and can't play D then where should he be?

I'm a poet and didn't even know it.

[Wretch]

My opinion is based upon many things. First of all, I've been a Hawks fan forever; and as most Hawks fans know, we haven't developed many draft picks. So being a fan of the game and the draft, I've had to follow guys from all over the league...and have done so for many many years.

There is no set timeframe or guidelines for saying what a rookie or 2nd year player will or will not be. If there were, it would make the jobs of many GMs infinitely easier and their turnover rate would be much slower. The fact of the matter is, most players have to mature, get PT/experience, get into the right situation (team/coach), and most importantly find their identity.

This sh!t simply does not happen in 1 year regardless of what any of us thinks a player's strengths and/or weaknesses are. Hell, guys like Jalen Rose, Stephen Jackson, and John Starks take quite a few years and strange roads to find their NBA stroke. But, to come out and set the ceiling for a guy who played behind two guys who dominated our offense for half a year (Walker/Al), who is KNOWN for his totally unselfish play (to a fault at times), in his second year, who is with an entire team that is trying to find it's identity...

That's just...

Y'know...I just got no words for that. If you honestly believe that you can evaluate the worth of a player (let alone Childress and the situation that he's in here in Atlanta) in FAR less than 2 seasons...then, my friend, YOU should be getting paid a great deal of money.

Because you could save teams like Portland who dealt away one of the most dominant PFs in the game today. You could eliminate 99% of the staff that studies these players day in and day out starting from High School. Hell, you could even be an agent for these guys...so they don't have to take 2nd round money like Salim. I personally suspect that you don't have that much insight and that you are just a troll with little or no patience.

Josh Childress is a VERY young player. Not a veteran. This is a young, clueless, and inexperienced team. Not a bad veteran team (like the one we promised would make the playoffs). As Hawks fans, we are new to having a team like this, so we want to bash them like we've bashed our losing teams in the past. Fortuneately for us, the guys who run the team understand the process of growing talent.

As for what Josh will do?

I don't have the slightest f#cking idea. I'm not a fortune teller. I only know what I have seen him do. He is incredible at getting to the basket (regardless of what his Combine stats say about it) and he has a knack for adjusting his shot. He makes extremely smart decisions with the ball in his hands and he knows how to make good passes. With the right backcourt and the right coaching, he could be an extemely dangerous complimentary player. If he does not get stronger and does not attack the basket, then he could find himself as a bust.

But right now, the only thing he is doing is facilitating the game for everyone else and playing defense. He is not shooting the ball and it's pointless to try and evaluate a guy's offensive game if he isn't doing anything.

[Wretch]

Exactly.

...and with Woody being so enamored with Lue, who is more of a shoot first 1 on 1 PG, I don't see this changing any time soon.

[Diesel]

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You start your best players. You don't start a guy averaging 6/3 in the hope that he gets better.

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Another Niave statement that you are trying to make a living on on this board... Let me kill it!!

You do not always start your best players. You start the players that fit the best.

Here are some examples..

Toni Kukoc was far Better than Dennis Rodman and Maybe Pippen.. But he didn't start for those Bulls...

Ricky Pierce was better than either of the Milwaukee Bucks Gaurds at the time, but he didn't start.

Vinny Johnson would have scored more than Andrian Dantley or Mark Acguire..

Jalen Rose would have put up much better numbers than Mark Jackson did at the PG for Indy.

M.Pietrus is better than M. Dunleavy.

Collison is playing ahead of Radman in Seattle?

I can go on and on...

It's not always about scoring.. But it's about how a player fits into an offense or defense.

Last yr, Chillz pulled down 7.5 rebs. For a team that struggles with Rebounding, it might be better to play a player who knows how to get good rebounding position than to play a better scorer who gets rebounds by luck more than position...

Maybe you should consider those things

[exodus]

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Because you could save teams like Portland who dealt away one of the most dominant PFs in the game today.

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Show me one post where i said trade Childress. Didn't happen.

In order to win in the NBA you have to put your most productive players on the floor. Right now that isn't Childress. He should be playing behind Smith and Marvin based on his current production. Maybe he will break out in a year or two but right now he sucks.

Does anyone here really believe that Childress deserves to start the way he is playing? If you do I would love to hear your reasoning, or lack thereof.

[exodus]

He averaged 7.5 boards last year and now he is averaging half that. Maybe you should consider that.

And having a talented scorer coming off the bench because the starting lineup has enough scoring has no relevance to Chill's situation.

If any of you can show me one sf or sg averaging 25 minutes per game who is less productive than Chill I will stop bashing him.