Why so much hate for AL?

[Dukegotgame]

I do not understand why people on here act like we can just give AL away and be better for it. Al is a very good player. He still has his problems, but he is improving. I do not understand why most people say he has maxed out. If you look at his numbers from this year to last year, he is averaging more points, has a much better 3 pt shoot, and has decreased his TO alot. He is the only player we have with a true post game. This is only his second year being a main option on a team.

While I agree we should not give him a ton of cash, if we can get him at a decent, even overpay by a little we should sign him. What's wrong with al, marvin, and smoove all playing 30 plus minutes a game?

[Diesel]

The problem that nobody here will admit is that since we drafted MW, Al has been on his way out.

Guys like Dakin and others praised Al last year. Now, every other post for them is a criticism of why we need to get rid of Al...

Al has gotten better as a player as you stated.

The only thing that really has changed is the roster.

[joannes3000]

Every team forum needs a scapegoat and Al happens to be ours. I'm not on that bandwagon, though, as I've been a proponent of resigning Al to 1) have an established 17/8 guy until 2) we can trade Al easily for a needed piece to the puzzle.

[Diesel]

I'm not against SNT of Al if it's a fair trade that makes us better...

But I'm not for giving up Al just to make space.

I agree that if we can resign Al to a reasonable contract, I'm all for it. Yo udon't give up a guy with the capacity to score 20 ppg (which Al did for the month of march). Too many guys think that 20 ppg comes easily. It doesn't...

[VDiLetto]

I think its because of the lack of Defense. We need a rotation of a BIG man, MW, and Josh. We need more size and defense up front.

[Diesel]

No we have other players who play lousy defense and their names are rarely recieved with such hate as Al...

If you really look at it honestly, I would bet that there would not be so great of an Al hate on the Squawk if we would have drafted Paul instead of Marvin. Most of the hate is derived out of people trying to justify more playing time for Marvin.

[Plainview1981]

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The problem that nobody here will admit is that since we drafted MW, Al has been on his way out.

Guys like Dakin and others praised Al last year. Now, every other post for them is a criticism of why we need to get rid of Al...

Al has gotten better as a player as you stated.

The only thing that really has changed is the roster.

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His rebounding hasn't improved... That should be improving and not his 3pt percentage.

[pathway23]

we need a versatile player who is more effective at the PF position that Al is. If you want rebounding and interior defense out of the PF position, Al isn't the answer. 3 pt % is nice , but we have enough shooters, we need post offense, so what good is it? That is one of the things Al does well, score in the post, and he isn't even being asked to do it. I'm sure some of this is coaching, and some of it is Al, but I don't why in a year from now the production of Smoove/Marvin/Chill/big via draft or facy for PF could replace Al and with it bring better defense than what we have now.. I don't know the stats exactly but I think Marvin is actually outrebounding Al on a perminute basis. That is ridiculous, because Marvin is just a rookie at the same position(s) as Al the 3 and 4. Also ex is right, Marvin challenges shots, and he gets in foul trouble a lot, because he gets no respect as a rookie and also he needs experience in that area, but Al does not challenge a shot, and still picks up fouls, stupid fouls, whereas Marvin's fouls are usually hard fouls which stop a basket, Al's fouls are usually soft fouls resulting in an and 1, or soft fouls which deny Smoove a chance at a weakside block.

Diesel you're afraid to see that Marvin could at least replace Al. And I am of the mind that Marvin was drafted to replace Al, because of his pending FAcy. Might as well get something for him. I think BK has put up the smokescreen, his plan is to sign and trade Al this offseason.

[RAHMOR]

I don't hate Al, I just want to use him fo the pieces we need. Also, I think that eventually Josh Smith or Marvin Williams could brng what he brings as far a points. I think the reason Al gets talked about so bad is because he is makes as many mistakes as the rest of the players besides JJ but the problem is that Al is the second option. He will get more attention because of that. I know Al is our 2nd best player but I want to groom the other guys to begin being second options because he just isn't going to cut it. When I look at the second options for true title contenders in today's NBA I would rather have them as our second option and in alot of cases I would replace Al with the second options from other playoff teams.

Just look who would you rather have:

Miami:Shaq

SA: Parker

Phoenix:Amare or Nash

Detroit: Pick anyone except maybe Prince

Dallas: You may have me there if they are true contenders

As for the other playoff teams you could argue for Al but they also have better supporting casts around their 1-2 punch and I believe Al can be used to find players to improve our supporting cast.

Al puts up great numbers but how many times do they have a true effect on the game. We win games we he has bad nights and we loose games when he has great nights. If Dwade or Shaq is out when we play Miami our chances of winning increase greatly. If Al is out do our chances of losing increase greatly. When was the last time Al missed a game and you thought, we have no chance of winning? or better yet if we play Miami and Dwade or Shaq is out you would think we have a better chance of winning. Then you find out Al is also out for us does your opinion change greatly.

There is a way to build this team with Al at the power forward and as a 2nd option, but is it the best way and will it equal success

[pathway23]

Hate replying to my own post, but to confirm these stats

Al Harrington Reb/40: 7.35

Marvin Williams Reb/40: 7.89

Marvin is already better in that area and he could easily catch up with Al offensively, the raw skills are there.

There is more Al Harrington Blk/40 : 0.172 (!)

Marvin Williams Blk/40 : 0.521 (Marvin significantly better)

Al Harrington Stl/40 : 1.157

Marvin Williams Stl/40 : 1.042 (about even)

Al Harrington TO/40 : 2.865

Marvin Williams TO/40 : 1.681 (Marvin significantly better, but to Al's credit, he handles the ball a lot)

tries to do too much though?

Alright I think I made my point, don't want to go too far, but I think Marvin will be just fine.

[exodus]

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Al puts up great numbers but how many times do they have a true effect on the game. We win games we he has bad nights and we loose games when he has great nights.

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Last night was a perfect example. The Nets had won 10 straight games and the Hawks were in position to beat them.

So where was Al's vaunted offense? MIA, 5-15. he has had plenty of opportunities to come through in clutch situations but he hasn't delivered. Last night he intentionally fouls Kidd for no reason with the Hawks down only 1 with almost 2 minutes remaining.

How about showing some backbone and trying to stop him? Not to mention that the other guys were back also and Smith certainly wouldn't have given Kidd a layup.

Against Indy he missed two free throws that almost cost them the game. Since Al is the second option you would think that over the course of the season he would have had some games where he came through big in crunch time but it hasn't happened. That coupled with his pathetic defense on the interior makes me hope he hits the road.

[Diesel]

If you like, I could go through the process of showing that in 2005, Eddie House (in Charlotte) was a better player than Joe Johnson.

Per 40 stats are always slanted towards players who don't get playing time because the less time you play, the more speculation can be made.

But per 40 doesn't consider fatigue, tempo, or the fact that you're comparing a bench player to a starter.

[KB21]

Per 40 minute statistics are a great way of judging what a player will be able to accomplish with more playing time when that player is currently getting consistent minutes. That rules out guys who may have played 9 minutes on the season but scored 10 points in those 9 minutes.

A great example is Zaza Pachulia. Last season with Milwaukee, Zaza was getting a consistent 19 minutes per game. Overall, his regular averages were 6.2 PPG and 5.1 RPG on the year. His per 40 numbers were 13.1 P/40 and 10.8 R/40. Well, fast foward to this season. Pachulia is getting right at 32 minutes a game on the season. His regular averages are 11.5 PPG and 8.1 RPG. His per 40 stats for this season are 14.5 P/40 and 10.1 R/40. Obviously, his rebounding rate is down while his scoring rate is up, but there isn't much variaton at all. His per 40 minute stats from last year were a pretty good barometer for what he would do this year with more time.

Overall, if you are looking at guys who are getting a consistent 10-20 minutes per game, the per 40 minute projections are a good barometer for future success with very little statistical variation. Another example is Joe Johnson. His per 40 minute numbers from the start of the 2002 season up until last season have basically come close to projecting what his numbers would be the next season.

[pathway23]

Marvin averages 23.8 minutes per game, Al 37 minutes. The difference is enough to impact statistically while at the same time being not so great as to make a projection impractical. If Marvin averaged 8 minutes per game and put up 3 points and 2 rebounds, you'd have a point, as it stands, you don't have a point, you're just continuing your anti-Marvin tirade against all statistical evidence.

[tmac13]

You also have to take into account that Marvin often gets in quick foul trouble which is one reason his minutes are limited.

[Seano]

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Every team forum needs a scapegoat and Al happens to be ours.

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I agree completely. He has become somewhat of the whipping boy for Hawks fans, or at least many of the fans that visit this forum. It's somewhat understandable too. I mean there are a lot of extremly frustrated Hawks fans, and justifiably so. Years of losing have a way of doing that to you.

And when we see Al, we look at him under a microscope- where every flaw is not only revealed but magnified. And so it becomes very easy to pick at those flaws, especially as we continue to struggle and become even more frustrated with the team. But you look around at fans of other teams around the league and listen to what they have to say, and almost without exception they view Al as being a very good player, if not an outright 'star' player, at least someone pretty dang close. And really, he is. He's a good player who does a lot of good things, despite his flaws and weaknesses of which we are all very well aware.

There are reasons why after Ben Wallace, Al Harrington is considered to be the second most desireable free agent on the market this summer. That's kind of the bottom-line. He's held in good regard by teams and general managers all around the league.

[joannes3000]

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Hate replying to my own post, but to confirm these stats

Al Harrington Reb/40: 7.35

Marvin Williams Reb/40: 7.89

Marvin is already better in that area and he could easily catch up with Al offensively, the raw skills are there.

There is more Al Harrington Blk/40 : 0.172 (!)

Marvin Williams Blk/40 : 0.521 (Marvin significantly better)

Al Harrington Stl/40 : 1.157

Marvin Williams Stl/40 : 1.042 (about even)

Al Harrington TO/40 : 2.865

Marvin Williams TO/40 : 1.681 (Marvin significantly better, but to Al's credit, he handles the ball a lot)

tries to do too much though?

Alright I think I made my point, don't want to go too far, but I think Marvin will be just fine.

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I agree. And I don't see a problem in resigning Al until Marvin is ready. It's not like we're gonna sign him to a KG contract and make it nearly impossible to trade him.

[Yeti]

I think the reason is everyone expects AL to leave after this season. THe Hawks aren't going anywhere in this post-season, so why is he getting the minutes? We are impatient and want the players of the future to get the minutes and develop.

Either we are keeping him - in which case why not do the deal now - or we are trying to raise his value for a trade. - - If he just walks, we made a big mistake playing him. Right now, Al is just using us to drive up his price, I just hope we gain from it.

[Lascar78]

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I agree. And I don't see a problem in resigning Al until Marvin is ready. It's not like we're gonna sign him to a KG contract and make it nearly impossible to trade him.

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If you give him the max contract he and his agent are asking for, he will be close to untradable.

I think if you give him more than 10 mil per year, he might not be 100% untradable , but you can only trade him if you take back a horrible contract or give up more value than you get back

[joannes3000]

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I agree. And I don't see a problem in resigning Al until Marvin is ready. It's not like we're gonna sign him to a KG contract and make it nearly impossible to trade him.

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If you give him the max contract he and his agent are asking for, he will be close to untradable.

I think if you give him more than 10 mil per year, he might not be 100% untradable , but you can only trade him if you take back a horrible contract or give up more value than you get back

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I think the fact that there are more rumors as to where Al is headed vs where KG is headed shows that even if he were to sign for 6/60 we would be able to move him pretty easily in 2 years or so.