Josh Smith: I've got a lot to prove

[Peoriabird]

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Roy, and whatever center we could get in FAcy or trade

W

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Talk about redundancy. Roy is the same type player that Joe Johnson is just less talented.

[Plastic Man]

i'm still reading hawks "fans" cry about not getting CP3. did the hornets make the playoffs? i don't care how much they improved--they didn't make the playoffs. did you want him on our squad to give up points instead of lue? CP3 got ROY starting all season on a mediocre team. personally i'd take felton over CP3. i'm not sayin paul sucks; i just don't think he's SO great that we'd be instant contenders.

i thought by now, especially after his promising summer performance, people would realize why we picked marv and what a unique player he is.

the end of the tunnel is near--i see the light!

[Peoriabird]

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Did that encapsule it enough for you to swallow. I've had alot of proctice wording it. Enough I'm shocked you had to ask what my argument was.

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Could you at least admit to me that your logic could be totally wrong please? And that there is a possibility that someone else could have a better plan.

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Regardless, drafting SW doesn't make a starting forward tandem of MW and JS work or rid us of their redundancy. It furthers the redundancy, benching on of them and Childress even further. Now Childress becomes even less valuable, the benched one out of MW and JS becomes less valuable

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So you have to start to have value in this league? Curious!

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SW's isn't talented enough to justify all this chaos

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This is the crux of your argument. The very essence of all of your arguments to do something different. You feel that there is no need for a meat & potato type power forward on this team. Teams can't win championship with and average to below average scoring power forward right? He has to be donimant both on offense and on defense in order for his team to have a chance at a championship right?

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especially after trading Al for peanuts to start MW and JS only to rob them of that opportunity.

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We didn't trade Al for peanuts to start MW & JS, we traded Al because we won 39 games in 2 years with him as our main guy. And the peanut you talk about was market value meaning that no one offered us more in a trade.

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He's a 1-dimesional, role-playing, lunch-pale guy that you can get for the mid level in FAcy.

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One dimensional meaning that he can only play post defense rebound, block shots, get steals and hit open jump shot type one dimensional

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He's a good piece but you dont' throw away better peices to force him into the puzzle somewhere. Just inane.

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He is a good piece but its insane to add him to the puzzle? Oh O.K. And what pieces did we throw away to get him?

[Diesel]

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We had Smoove at the three but is he really a good three? Does he have the potential to be a star at 3? My answer is no so we went out and got Marvin.

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At the time, you're right, Smoove was not a great Sf when the Marvin draft came up. However, we also had Al, Diaw, Donta, and Chillz. Don't forget, Chillz and Smoove had played out the end of the season and they were looking good... especially Chillz.

Moreover, Sf is not the most essential of positions. How many championship teams are championship calibre team have great Sfs? In the last 30 years, there has only been 3 great Sfs on Championship teams.. Bird, Worthy, and Dr. J. and of those, only Bird and J were capable of leading their teams to the finals and winning. Worthy without Magic and Kareem was just another good Sf... I don't know if he even approaches Dominique.

Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J.

But that's another argument... Back to the rest of my response...

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We had Point guard by committee penciled in at point guard but was that going to be enough to get everyone involve while keeping our turn-over down? My Answer is no. So we went out and got Speedy.

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We could have easily penciled in Smoove at Sf and done something about the more important PG position. You don't allow one of the most important positions to go unmanned while you d*ck around with a position that really doesn't move you closer to championship calibre.

[Diesel]

Swatguy, let's not turn this into a Marvin wrong or right conversation...

I'll just say on the matter this...

For Marvin,

We gave up Chris Paul, Boris Diaw, and AL Harrington.

I think it's written in stone that Marvin must become much better than a 18/8 player.

[Packfill]

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We had Smoove at the three but is he really a good three? Does he have the potential to be a star at 3? My answer is no so we went out and got Marvin.

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At the time, you're right, Smoove was not a great Sf when the Marvin draft came up. However, we also had Al, Diaw, Donta, and Chillz. Don't forget, Chillz and Smoove had played out the end of the season and they were looking good... especially Chillz.

Moreover, Sf is not the most essential of positions. How many championship teams are championship calibre team have great Sfs? In the last 30 years, there has only been 3 great Sfs on Championship teams.. Bird, Worthy, and Dr. J. and of those, only Bird and J were capable of leading their teams to the finals and winning. Worthy without Magic and Kareem was just another good Sf... I don't know if he even approaches Dominique.

Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J.

But that's another argument... Back to the rest of my response...

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We had Point guard by committee penciled in at point guard but was that going to be enough to get everyone involve while keeping our turn-over down? My Answer is no. So we went out and got Speedy.

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We could have easily penciled in Smoove at Sf and done something about the more important PG position. You don't allow one of the most important positions to go unmanned while you d*ck around with a position that really doesn't move you closer to championship calibre.

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There is some truth to the notion that a championship team should not be built around a small forward. Hopefully Smoove or Marvin can change that perception.

[Diesel]

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But with every position there have been players who were 'hybrid', ie not a true pg but play the position. At every position there are guys who have unique skills and can flourish and in the process challenge other players that ahve to guard them. I think he is a very unique talent that can play his game and be successful.

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Historically, this has been tried before. I think Nellie was the first to try it with his Milwaukee teams. I think Denver tried it with their run and gun teams. The only time it has been successful is when the Lakers did it with Showtime. But don't be ignorant, they had a dominant Center and probably the 2nd best PG the game has seen.

In the game of basketball, Versatility means that you don't have a true position. My running example of this is Toni Kukoc. He's a great player. 7 foot, can handle the ball, can shoot from range, can pass... however, what position does he defend. What we found was that he can't defend any of them... as is the case with most "versatile" players.

In my mind, this is how I see our team with respect to historical players:

Speedy Claxton - ? I hate to say this but I think Speedy may have had a good contract year. However, it's hard to tell. Historically, he reminds me of Kenny the Jet Smith. A smart guy with the ball, can set the offense and plays good defense but not really dominant in any aspect of the gmae.

JJ = Penny Hardaway. JJ has the same type of game as Penny. He can handle the ball, but he mainly is a scorer. He's not as good a PG as Penny, but he's a much better defender.

JSmoove = Larry Nance. Not a big time scorer, but he scores... mainly athletic with good defense.

Marvin = Tim Thomas. The only difference between these two so far is that Thomas is about 2 inches taller than Marvin. We all hope better for Marvin, but he came in with the same hype and the same game.

Zaza = Bill Winnington. I can't say Vlade because he's not that good. I can't say Smits because he's not that tall. I have to go with undersized guy who can do things withthe ball.

[Swatguy]

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Swatguy, let's not turn this into a Marvin wrong or right conversation...

I'll just say on the matter this...

For Marvin,

We gave up Chris Paul, Boris Diaw, and AL Harrington.

I think it's written in stone that Marvin must become much better than a 18/8 player.

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We never had Chris Paul, we selected Marvin instead.

Boris was out of here because of his indifference not the coaches. Boris was a guaranteed salary shifted as a negotiation chip to seal the deal. It really was genius. Part of JJ's salary was already tied up in a disgruntled, unproductive, indifferent player.

Al was not ours to have. He was an UFA. We are double blessed to not have his spot and salary, instead a 1st round pick we Did Not have.

You and others continually make the '05 draft an issue. It is idiotic to continue to debate Chris Paul over Marvin Williams. Marvin is a certain star on the rise. He, I believe will be 6'11" before he stops growing. The guy can handle the rock Now and has a sweet jumper Now. He has ALL THE TOOLS.

Most importantly, Marvin is a Hawk.

Forget about the "woulda, coulda" thats for whiners and babies.

I gotta find another board without all these chumps and haters, its disintegrating.

[Final_quest]

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Screw that it was a terrible pick. I just got done playing NBA2k7 on the XBOX 360 and the announcers said many around the league felt the Hawks should have drafted Chris Paul over Marvin Williams this is in a freaking video game. Enuff said?

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I love the analyzation with video games. When Toronto traded Vince Carter, Jalen Rose said he's not sure about real life but on the video game he could have got more for him in a trade. This new trend of comparing reality to video games cracks me up. If CP3 is better than Marvin on NBA2k7, than he must be the better pick in real life too.

[Diesel]

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We never had Chris Paul, we selected Marvin instead.

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What is this bizzarro world?

OK, let me restate..

We gave up the chance to have Chris Paul by Selecting Marvin.

We gave up Boris Diaw and AL Harrington to make "space" for Marvin.

Marvin had better be legit!

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Al was not ours to have. He was an UFA. We are double blessed to not have his spot and salary, instead a 1st round pick we Did Not have.

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This must be Bizarro world. Since we drafted Marvin, the writing was on the wall for Al. As a matter of Economics, Al would have to be moved in leiu of Marvin.

Again, Marvin better be legit.

You keep saying that these players were not ours. The truth is that they were or could have been ours if it were not for Marvin!

[gsuteke]

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Here is my Spin Diesel!

We had Smoove at the three but is he really a good three? Does he have the potential to be a star at 3? My answer is no so we went out and got Marvin.

We had Childress penciled in a 2 but was he going to be a star at the 2? My answer is no so we went out and got Joe Johnson.

We had Al Harrington then penciled in a 4 but was he going to be the dominant defensive force we were looking for at the 4 My answer is No so we went out and got Shelden

We had Point guard by committee penciled in at point guard but was that going to be enough to get everyone involve while keeping our turn-over down? My Answer is no. So we went out and got Speedy.

The center position was being maned by Jason Collier and Peja D but were they going to hang around in the paint enough to atleast foul an opposing center? My answer is No therefore we picked up Zaza and Lo Wright.

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To say we drafted Marvin Williams because we thought Josh Smith wasnt the answer at the 3 is Ridculous he was coming off his rookie year in which he was 2nd team all rookie. Marvin Williams was the wrong pick there is no denying that because if Chris Paul was on this team we would be a playoff contender for the next 10 years the same cant be said with Marvin Williams he just adds to the log jam at the forward spots.

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what the heck is with the people on this board that choose a favorite player and then proceed to close their minds?

there is a ton of that on this board. if you are a Josh Smith fan first and foremost and a Hawks fan second start a Josh Smith fansite.

Leave the Hawksquawk posting for the fans of the "Hawks."

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Your kidding right? Everyone in the country besides maybe a hand full of Hawks fans belive Marvin Williams was the wrong pick it set this franchise back we would be much better with Chris Paul right now. Just look wat he did to the Hornets franchise. I guarntee you he leads them deep into the playoffs while Im hoping we get in it will be hard. The progression of this team and franchise would have way faster had we not taken another SF. Some of you people dont wanna believe/hear some of the opinion/truth some Hawks fan gotta say only wanna hear you want to hear. Screw that it was a terrible pick. I just got done playing NBA2k7 on the XBOX 360 and the announcers said many around the league felt the Hawks should have drafted Chris Paul over Marvin Williams this is in a freaking video game. Enuff said?

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a. i don't play video games. nice basis for your argument

b. i'm not a Marvin nuthugger. if I were I'd be taking biased stances on every thread such as this like most of your "JoshSmiththisorthat" brethren.

you can continue to go running around screaming "the hawks are on fire and we should have drafted Chris Paul" in a crowded chatroom all you want. just keep in mind you lose credibility on the board when you do so.

let me know the name of your Josh Smith fansite so I can check it out.

[Diesel]

I guarantee you that Dion Glover would beat the breaks off of Marvin in a Summer League game.

What does it mean?

NOTHING.

[Johnnybravo4]

To go back to the orginal topic, the question that no one is asking is: If Josh Smith 6'9 240lbs, is the 3 his natural position? PF's that Josh is currently as big as or bigger than

Alan Henderson

Antawn Jamison

Lamar Odom

Kenyon Martin

Udonis Haslem

Boris Diaw

Chris Bosh

Al Harrington

Carlos Boozer

Reef

Charlie V

Radmonovic

Shelden Williams

I could probably name dozens more. Granted half of these on the list are an inch taller than Josh, but are we going to parse positions over whether someone is 6'9 or 6'10?

You may argue that Josh has a SF skillset, but so does KG, Dirk and Jermaine O'neal.

You may argue physicality, but I don't think any of us would characterize Josh as being a finesse player.

You may argue that his game is perimeter oriented. But I would counter that that was just a product of Al Harrington being seen as the main post threat. And besides, isn't that basically what Sheed and Jamison game is?

I think that we should all view Josh in a a new light. He is a PF who has the skill set of a SF period.

[Peoriabird]

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Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J.

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So I take it that you would not have drafted Labron James or Carmelo Anthony.

[Diesel]

There is the reality that right now, Chris Paul is sooooo much better than Marvin that it's not even funny.

I'm not here to suggest that we should have picked Paul...

Like I told Walt, there's no time Machine.

However, I'm here to provide realism...

Realism is that Marvin has a lot to prove. We gave up the opp to have Paul as well as Harrington for Marvin. Therefore, there must be expectations for Marvin.

The Marvin Nuthugging Alliance (MNA) Will not be honest enough to suggest that the franchise ought to have some expectations of Marvin. Instead, the MNA wants to talk about potential 24/7. Well, in reality, Potential sits on the bench looking like a million dollars... but Potential can't win you anything. We have to have more honest converstations about the state of our players and the what should be expected of each.

[Diesel]

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So I take it that you would not have drafted Labron James or Carmelo Anthony.

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Are you putting Marvin on the same level as these other two?

Let's remember, both James and Anthony were very productive rookies.

But would I have passed on them?

Maybe...

I mean, if I could have gotten D.Wade to be my PG/SG, and I had Smoove as my Sf, yeah, I would have passed on them.

[Peoriabird]

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Are you putting Marvin on the same level as these other two?

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Your argument was that it was stupid to build a team around the small forward position. And those two happen to be small forwards that their repective teams chose to build around

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Let's remember, both James and Anthony were very productive rookies.

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Again changing the argument!

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But would I have passed on them?

Maybe...

I mean, if I could have gotten D.Wade to be my PG/SG, and I had Smoove as my Sf, yeah, I would have passed on them.

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Well atleast I have you on record as the only basketball person known to man that would have passed on Lebron James. Now I know what I'm dealing with!

[Swatguy]

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Are you putting Marvin on the same level as these other two?

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Your argument was that it was stupid to build a team around the small forward position. And those two happen to be small forwards that their repective teams chose to build around

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Let's remember, both James and Anthony were very productive rookies.

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Again changing the argument!

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But would I have passed on them?

Maybe...

I mean, if I could have gotten D.Wade to be my PG/SG, and I had Smoove as my Sf, yeah, I would have passed on them.

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Well atleast I have you on record as the only basketball person known to man that would have passed on Lebron James. Now I know what I'm dealing with!

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hiccup

[Packfill]

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Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J.

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So I take it that you would not have drafted Labron James or Carmelo Anthony.

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That is not a good comparison. Both Lebron and Carmelo would have been drafted before Bogut/Marvin/Paul/etc. if they were in the same draft. Both were truly exceptional talents - franchise altering talents. Marvin and Paul are good talents, but not on the level of Lebron and Carmelo. What that means is that absent a franchise level talent head and shoulders above the rest, a strong argument can be made to pick the guy who most fills a need since the ceiling on all the available prospects is similar.

[Peoriabird]

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That is not a good comparison. Both Lebron and Carmelo would have been drafted before Bogut/Marvin/Paul/etc. if they were in the same draft. Both were truly exceptional talents - franchise altering talents. Marvin and Paul are good talents, but not on the level of Lebron and Carmelo. What that means is that absent a franchise level talent head and shoulders above the rest, a strong argument can be made to pick the guy who most fills a need since the ceiling on all the available prospects is similar.

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Who knows how good Marvin will be 2 years from now. I was just disputing the notion that it is ridiculous to build around a Small forward when teams do it all of the time.