My thoughts on the game

[gsuteke]

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I hate it as much as I hate our idiot GM, our bad coach and the inane ownership situation.

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Sound like you need a new team to root for since you don't like anything about this one.

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very well said!

[Sothron]

Son, I've been a Hawks fan longer than you probably have been alive. If anyone who calls himself a fan is happy with the #5 pick in the draft averaging less than one basket a game so far then they need to find a new sport to watch. I'd suggest hockey since averaging under two points a game is actually pretty damn good.

[drzachary]

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How about the "Every team in the NBA post draft admitted they had Shellhead as a 13-18 pick?"

How about the "Let's not even work out anyone before the draft because Shellhead was promised he'd be picked by idiot GM?"

How about the "Let's don't even work out SHELLHEAD to see if he can even lift a Big Mac?"

How about the "Let's ignore drafting for need and pass on Paul, Deron Williams and Felton to draft Marvin? And then next year we'll draft for "need" over many more talented players?"

How about the "We could have traded down and still gotten a 23 year old rookie who can't even average a BASKET in real games?"

Are those arguments more to your liking? I mean, I can keep going but I think they speak for themselves.

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Those are more to my liking, except for the 'average a basket in real games' one, which is obviously premature.

[Sothron]

Don't kupo with me Dr. Z. I bring kupo hard down here.

[drzachary]

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Blah, get a better argument than the 'three game average' nonsense, please. They exist.

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Better arguments exist and many including me have cited them, but the post was a response to Johnny Bravo's blatantly false statement show to be utterly contrary. There was no respectable reason to pass on Roy for SW. Too much talent difference, period. When a guy averaging 5 APG and often running the offense for Portland, especially late in games, gets accused of "not having one assist this season" and not having enough Pg skills to even play the position even next to JJ, the guy making the accusation is marginalized.

Dr.Z, should BK be proven to twice pass on the ROY in consecutive years and trade the MIP as a throw-in, do you think he should be thought of as a good GM, much less keep his job? It would be unprecedented incompetence. Nobody comes remotely close with that sort of track record. You could build a title contending team based upon his mistakes alone.

W

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No, I think he should be fired. (Though I do bet there are worse GMs out there in basketball history.) And, as you probably know, he didn't trade the most improved player. He traded a "scared rabbit" (to quote another thread) who became the MIP.

Also, I wanted a PG too, but I think I was more excited about Foye and Rondo than Roy. And I'm almost never excited about any Puke player ever (though I'm not ready to throw our rookie under the bus quite yet.)

However, I don't think any arguments based on three-game averages for any player are worthwhile. There were three-game stretches a few years ago where Toni Kukoc averaged a near triple-double. Should we have signed him to a 10-year extension? Is Wally Sczerbiak really a more reliable scorer than KG or Dirk? Because right now he's averaging more ppg!

[drzachary]

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Don't kupo with me Dr. Z. I bring kupo hard down here.

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So, will you rescind your criticism if he, say, scores 2 baskets vs Cleveland and then 2 or more vs Toronto? Because then he'd be averaging a basket or MORE per game, and would then be a complete player!

[Peoriabird]

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If anyone who calls himself a fan is happy with the #5 pick in the draft averaging less than one basket a game so far then they need to find a new sport to watch. I'd suggest hockey since averaging under two points a game is actually pretty damn good.

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Didn't bring him in for his offense just like we would not have brought Pryzbilla, S. Swift, or big Ben for their offense. But it is early. Not rooting for Shelden to pad his stats, rooting for the Hawks team to win. As long as they win, don't care who's averaging what. Because when they win, simply means that everyone is doing their job

[Sothron]

No, I think its a more than reasonable expectation to expect more than two baskets a game from a #5 pick in the draft. Crazy idea I know.

[Nicholasp27]

No, I think it's a more than reasonable expectation to expect to wait more than 3 games before passing judgement on a #5 pick in the draft. Crazy idea I know.

[AHF]

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No, I think its a more than reasonable expectation to expect more than two baskets a game from a #5 pick in the draft. Crazy idea I know.

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Everyone expects that out of Shelden in the long run. Honestly, would you be anything other than absolutely shocked if he didn't average more than two baskets a game over his career? That would shock me. However, I do expect him to have some very mixed success offensively as a rookie (some 12-15 point games mixed with some very low point games for an average of 7 points a game or so depending on his minutes).

[Guest Walter]

The 3 game "argument" is one of many (as if there was another argument suggesting Wally Z as good as KG) and in the context of the 10 or so other, currently stronger arguments I think it is supportive of the evidence against SW over Roy and the start of another overwhelming argument against our GM.

Yes, there are worse GMs despite BK making 4 of the biggest, most glaring mistakes in recent GM history (SW counts as two when considering the "promise" to SW). You don't win titles settling for having an awful, though not NBA-worst (Isaiah Thomas, anyone?) GM, no matter how much capitol he had/has at his disposal.

[mudderfudder77]

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No, I think he should be fired. (Though I do bet there are worse GMs out there in basketball history.)

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So long as Isiah Thomas is gainfully employed as a GM he holds that title.

[Guest Walter]

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No, I think he should be fired. (Though I do bet there are worse GMs out there in basketball history.)

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So long as Isiah Thomas is gainfully employed as a GM he holds that title.

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Isaiah is gone soon enough. Some 7-8 years ago I wanted him for our coach. Actually, I just didn't want Lenny and Isaiah represented the biggest name available next to Doc (who I had wanted the year before). Anyhow, Isaiah has turned out to be more inept than I possibly could have imagined. The NBA as a whole will be better off without him.

W

[jerrywest]

Isiah is a great point guard and a great scout. He is just a lousy businessman/coach/manager.

[Sothron]

I think that sums up Thomas nicely.

And no, I don't expect Shellhead to average under two points a game this season. But if he was averaging decent numbers we would have people trumpeting him on this board as the second coming of Karl Malone or something if we are being honest.

I've yet to be even remotely impressed with Shellhead in any of the games so far. I do expect him to be a bust. I hope I am wrong but so far the early returns have not been promising. I think we can all at least agree on that.

[Diesel]

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Yes, there are worse GMs despite BK making 4 of the biggest, most glaring mistakes in recent GM history (SW counts as two when considering the "promise" to SW).

You don't win titles

settling for having an awful, though not NBA-worst (Isaiah Thomas, anyone?) GM, no matter how much capitol he had/has at his disposal.

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In front of us, we have one of the reasons why it's hard to follow you. You want to break down the choice of Shelden based on Stats.. However, then you talk about winning....

That's a problem.

We are winning. With Shelden, playing his role on the team. If you have watched, aside from the Philly game, Shelden has been solid to good at defending and has definitely bothered low post scorers like Howard and Lee.

The problem is that you don't respect anything outside of scoring.

If we had drafted Bill Russell #5... (incidently, he was the #2 pick overall).. we would have a player who never averaged more than 18 ppg during his career...

Or worse..

What if we had drafted KC Jones #5. He never got over 9.2 ppg in his career...

Or how about Dennis Rodman #5. His highest scoring average was 11.6 ppg...

The point is that right now, Shelden plays his role.. just like JJ plays his role and Zaza plays his role. Nobody expected Shelden to be a 30 ppg PF. IF so, who??

So why do you hold him to that type of standard?

Why do you negate winning?

[Guest Walter]

I'm sorry, but that was a bunch of hooey.

When SW becomes Bill Russell you can bump this thread up. Don't hold your breath.

I don't just judge SW based upon statistics, but it's not like he's better elsewhere or "the little things" should cost you a 5th overall pick. I've seen him in at least 50 college games and I watched him (briefly, obviously) against Philly. Highlights since then, but there aren't any of him, so...He really is an embarassment of a 5th overall pick. "Most ready NBA player" shouldn't be sucking this bad. Watch Roy and you'll simply shake your head in disgust at our GM.

W

[terrynoonan]

I don't care about what production you should get for a certain pick. That's all conjecture. How about winning games. Shelden is a smart, humble player. I was at the game and speaking as someone who still plays basketball I can say that Shelden did a fine job. He plays solid D, has very good timing for blocking and challenging shots, and has passing instincts. Not to mention he gave us a post presence during his minutes. Two excellent up and unders. McHale like! He also showed some range from 3, barely missing from the corner.

Personally, I think you should keep playing "LIVE". Just be happy with the win.

[Sothron]

Please don't ever compare Shellhead Williams to Kevin Mchale again unless its obvious sarcasm. Shellhead has a long, loooooong way to go before he even remotely compares as a player.

[terrynoonan]

Were you at the game? I wasn't comparing his game to McHale's. He did make a couple of very nice up and unders though. I was complimenting some nice moves. C'mon! I don't have time to waste making distinctions like that. They should be obvious.