Shelden: Disappointment

[TexasPete]

Marvin contributes on a nightly basis and if Woodson hadn't screwed him last night he would have had a better night. But he still pulled 8 boards to go with 12 points...he also shot over 50% from the floor.

The point is that Marvin is not nearly a bust. He is going to be good. He still has 3 huge years on Shelden. We made a mistake picking Marvin but that deal will turn out OK in the end. Shelden just flat sucks.

In fact, if our incompetant GM had acquired a real PG by now, the Marvin pick would be forgotten. If Roy or Foye was in our backcourt right now there would be very few people still pissed over CP3 or Deron. The fact that we STILL don't have a PG is what is so screwed up. We now have 4 backup PG's on the team and it doesn't look like there is any light at the end of the tunnel for a good young PG who would grow along with the rest of the guys. We just sign and acquire backups. This team is just piss poorly run.

[Diesel]

Another excuse for Shelden???

I think you got Shelden-itis... Or better yet, Lack of hawkfanery...

But anyway,

Saying that Passing on CP3 or Deron was the biggest goof that we have done in the last 5 years is not an excuse for Shelden...

It's truth that any basketball person can see.

Can't you see it?

I mean, we have spent so much money recently trying to fix the PG position.

And for what?

To make up for the fact that when we had a chance

to get an Allstar PG, we blew it!!

How is that an excuse for Shelden?

Do you have Shelden on the brain?

Must be?

[Diesel]

This is not Shelden vs. Marvin yet.

The question was the greatest mistake that this GM has made.

I can't say it was picking JJ.

But Somebody said that it was getting Shelden.

I say, that's BS...

In the grand scheme of things, Getting Shelden didn't

hurt us as much as Losing out on CP3 or Deron Did.

Therefore...

When I see somebody ignoring the loss of CP3,

I immediately realize that that person is trying to

walk blindly past the mistaken draft of Marvin.

Like it or not Ex, we passed over 2 maybe 3 franchise

PGs for another Swingman and that's the worst move

that our GM has made.

I'm no hypocrite for shining the truth on everybody here.

It's the truth and HISTORY will side with me in that Truth.

Like it or NOT.

[exodus]

The subject of the thread is Shelden being in Woodson's doghouse and not getting pt. I didn't see Marvin's name in the article at the beginning of the thread.

YOu merely hijacked the thread to give you another chance to rant against Marvin.

[TexasPete]

If we had selected even Randy Foye, the PG search would be over and imbeciles like you could find another horse to ride. I am amazed that even you could blame Marvin for us still not having a good PG.

You want to know why we still don't have one? Because Billy Knight is an incompetant GM. Your arguments lack even small amounts of logic. It must be damn tough looking at things the way you do buddy.

[Guest Walter]

Diesel, you said

Quote:

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By saying that BK's biggest mistake in drafting was drafting Shelden is automatically making an excuse for Marvin.

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I said that you are making an "excuse" for SW with this statement. Certainly a red herring but an attempt at an excuse. I believe there are enough BK mistakes to allow for more than one big one and for different reasons (not a true Pg vs. the promise and the fact that SW has far less potential than SW) both were equally bad decisions.

Poor BK is getting criticism for drafting SW when he should be getting it for MW too. He is getting it for MW but frankly YOU aren't giving him any for drafting Shelden. Time to catch up with what's right here instead of "defending" MW if that's what you can call it when you say drafting him wasn't quite as bad as drafting MW.

Quote:

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I think you got Shelden-itis... Or better yet, Lack of hawkfanery...

You continue to sink to new Fox programming lows. Now you are more stupid than a 5th grader.

W

[Diesel]

As I have said before,

You have never shown any fan nature for

the Hawks... Save the time you said

trading Smitty for JJ/JR was a good

move for the franchise.

You don't like any of the moves that we do

and your whole purpose for being here is

to play the I AM Right role.

I'm not so quick to call Shelden a bust because

I'm not so quick to suggest that Woody knows what

he is doing.

However, if that's what you want to do...

By all means.

[Guest Walter]

For someone who disliked the Iraq war but (I would assume) considered themselves a patriot, you are the biggest hypocrite of them all to call anyone who does not like the current GM or coach and their recent decisions "an unpatriotic fan".

This is a sports forum and that was national security. You'd think you'd have learned something having been in your untenable position, but instead you remain an ignorant ass-hole.

W

[AtLaS]

Quote:

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You don't like any of the moves that we do

and your whole purpose for being here is

to play the I AM Right role.

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I would like to step in and ask, what IS there to like about BK's moves? Other than the JJ trade, and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

He signs horrible players, makes horrible trades, signs and won't fire one of the worst coaches in the league, and his drafting? Do I even need to say something?

We have had SO many chances to be a good team by now, but BK just continues and continues to fail.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask, what IS there to like about BK's moves? Other than the JJ trade, and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

He won't actually defend the SW pick even though he supported (and I assume for personal reasons, supportS it). He just wants to insult those were right when he wasn't since he can't make any other claim.

W

[Diesel]

I'm not calling you an unpatrotic fan.

I'm saying you're no fan at all.

The only thing that you're a fan of is

Walter's opinions.

Tell me, what do you like about the Hawks?

Any found memories of the Hawks.

Have you ever been to a game?

Do you get games?

Or do you still just read the boxscore and come

here spewing about how you were right about

this decision and that decision???

You can see me bleed Red, White, and Gold...

I don't mind because I'm a fan.

In fact, I'm insulted that you would come here

everyday and talk about purposely losing with no

real plan for the Hawks other than destroying

the confidence and the comaradery of the team?

What kind of fan wants his team to lose?

No that's not a fan.

That's a guy who wants to be right more

than see his team win!

It's interesting that you are most quiet when we win?

When we have a streak going, NO WALTER..

What kind of fan is that?

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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I'm not calling you an unpatrotic fan.

I'm saying you're no fan at all.

---

I'm saying you're a cry baby, hypocrite, ass-hole. Glad we both got that off our chests.

W

[Diesel]

Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask, what IS there to like about BK's moves? Other than the JJ trade, and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

Lord knows I'm not saying being a fan requires that you go with every thing BK does... I don't think anybody but KB

would do that.

What I'm saying is that I have known Walter for about 7

years now by way of HS... and in those years,

only 1 time has he applauded anything we did and what

he appluaded was us breaking up Mookie, Smitty, and the

rest of the team. And the only reason he applauded it

was because it was what he wanted the GM to do.

That's not a fan. That's a guy with his own motive for

being here.

When we go on this winning streak during the month of March,

I want you to notice who will not be celebrating...

I can tell you his conversation:

1st: This team should be tanking.

2nd: These wins are not important.

3rd: Even if they make the playoffs they will lose in the first round.

4th: This team will regret what it has done this season.

You say Diesel, how do you know that this is what Walter will say:

Because I have read where he has said it before.

You ever notice that Walter brags when we lose?

So, let me ask you the question Atlas:

Do you call that a fan?

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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What I'm saying is that I have known Walter for about 7

years now by way of HS... and in those years,

only 1 time has he applauded anything we did and what

he appluaded was us breaking up Mookie, Smitty, and the

rest of the team.

---

While many here questioned JS' potential I championed it. I wanted the JJ deal even at the high cost and love JJ. I even posted a thread entitled "10 things I like that BK has done". But frankly, if you exlcude JJ and JS, which was ATlas question to you, there isn't anything that is a success here. You failed to answer ATlas question BTW. What aside from JJ and JS do you support 100%.

Anyhow, you are just a hateful, hypocritical, little emotional munchkin. Go cry in your non-alcoholic beer.

W

[AtLaS]

Quote:

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Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask, what IS there to like about BK's moves? Other than the JJ trade, and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

Lord knows I'm not saying being a fan requires that you go with every thing BK does... I don't think anybody but KB

would do that.

What I'm saying is that I have known Walter for about 7

years now by way of HS... and in those years,

only 1 time has he applauded anything we did and what

he appluaded was us breaking up Mookie, Smitty, and the

rest of the team. And the only reason he applauded it

was because it was what he wanted the GM to do.

That's not a fan. That's a guy with his own motive for

being here.

When we go on this winning streak during the month of March,

I want you to notice who will not be celebrating...

I can tell you his conversation:

1st: This team should be tanking.

2nd: These wins are not important.

3rd: Even if they make the playoffs they will lose in the first round.

4th: This team will regret what it has done this season.

You say Diesel, how do you know that this is what Walter will say:

Because I have read where he has said it before.

You ever notice that Walter brags when we lose?

So, let me ask you the question Atlas:

Do you call that a fan?

---

Yes I think he's a fan, he just criticizes our bad moves a lot more often than the average person. It can get repetitive and beat to death, but it doesn't mean he isn't a fan. Someone that isn't a fan is Hotlanta, he thinks the team should be moved to Vegas, and criticized JJ for being an all-star.

But you still didn't answer my question, and you really don't have to, because there really IS nothing else to be positive about. Even though you're a big Shelden fan, do you think BK made the right pick? God don't we ask this about every BK pick?

[Diesel]

Let's get to your question now.

I think that there's a lot to be excited about.

First and foremost is JJ.

JJ is our first allstar since Deke.

Moreover, he's very young.

Second to be excited about is JSmoove.

Again, very young but he's showing that he's capable of being

a big time player.

That's two. I think we have some role players...

No doubt, every team does.

I think we have some players who we're waiting on to

develop...

I think we have some trade bait too.

But if you can't be excited about JJ and Smoove,

you've flipped your wig.

Or

If you thnk JJ and Smoove is not enough...

Let me remind you:

The Lakers only had 2 stars when they won their championship.

Duncan, Ginobilli.

Wade, Shaq.

It's very rare that a "Stacked" team every does well

in the playoffs...

we're still the youngest team playing basketball.

It's proven that to win, you don't have to be stacked at

every position. But at least have some depth.

We have that.

What I look forward to is a new coach who knows

how to use our pieces that will make everybody say

amn.. that it what was possible?

Just because we have a green coach and young

players, doesn't mean that we lack talent.

I even see talent in Speedy, Lue, and AJ (Unlike some)...

The thing is that you have to be able to look beyond

our record and see what we really have.

I'm not disappointed with this team.

Sure I would love Paul or Deron in place of Marvin but

that's only because I still see Marvin as Extra and redundant.

But even with Marvin, if he could bear out some of that potential, we have a fairly good young team.

It will take a trade or two.. and it will take

getting the right free agent, but we're not done...or doomed.

We're just coming off one of the hardest

months on record... and we didn't do so bad.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

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Let's get to your question now.

I think that there's a lot to be excited about.

First and foremost is JJ.

JJ is our first allstar since Deke.

Moreover, he's very young.

Second to be excited about is JSmoove.

Again, very young but he's showing that he's capable of being

a big time player.

That's two. I think we have some role players...

No doubt, every team does.

I think we have some players who we're waiting on to

develop...

I think we have some trade bait too.

But if you can't be excited about JJ and Smoove,

you've flipped your wig.

Or

If you thnk JJ and Smoove is not enough...

Let me remind you:

The Lakers only had 2 stars when they won their championship.

Duncan, Ginobilli.

Wade, Shaq.

It's very rare that a "Stacked" team every does well

in the playoffs...

we're still the youngest team playing basketball.

It's proven that to win, you don't have to be stacked at

every position. But at least have some depth.

We have that.

What I look forward to is a new coach who knows

how to use our pieces that will make everybody say

amn.. that it what was possible?

Just because we have a green coach and young

players, doesn't mean that we lack talent.

I even see talent in Speedy, Lue, and AJ (Unlike some)...

The thing is that you have to be able to look beyond

our record and see what we really have.

I'm not disappointed with this team.

Sure I would love Paul or Deron in place of Marvin but

that's only because I still see Marvin as Extra and redundant.

But even with Marvin, if he could bear out some of that potential, we have a fairly good young team.

It will take a trade or two.. and it will take

getting the right free agent, but we're not done...or doomed.

We're just coming off one of the hardest

months on record... and we didn't do so bad.

---

This was my question..

Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask, what IS there to like about BK's moves?

Other than the JJ trade, and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

3/4 of your post was about those two. I haven't flipped my position about this team at all, I know that we are better than our record, injuries and breakdowns in the 4th quarter have lost at least 5-6 of our games directly (which would put us RIGHT in the 8th seed). What I'm saying is that BK has made about 10 draft picks, the ONLY one that is positive is the Smith pick, and it was an obvious pick. And I like Childress but he isn't as good as Iggy or Deng, and BK was the ONLY GM who had Chill rated ahead of them.

Add to that, all of BK's trades are horrible (save JJ, as in my question to you), and his FA signings are horrible.

I agree with you, there is a lot to be positive about, but there is a LOT more to be negative about. And considering we've missed out on Howard (because of 1 extra win/coin flip), Deng, Iggy, Paul, Deron, Roy, Foye, it's easy to see that we could be FAR ahead of where we are now.

As to your argument about teams only having 2 stars to win a ship, Kobe is better than JJ, and Shaq is a top 3 big man of all-time. Duncan is up there with Shaq also, and Ginobli/Parker together are about equal to Kobe. The thing is, in order for us to get someone else great on our team, we will have to trade all or most of that "depth" that we have.

I also see you mentioned nothing about Shelden in your analysis as to what was positive.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask,

what IS there to like about BK's moves?

Other than the JJ trade,

and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

This is your question.

I think it's a bad question...

Here's what it seems like to me:

Other than trading Vlade for Kobe and picking

up Shaq, what did Jerry West do for the Lakers

in his last days as GM?

Other than drafting Wade and

moving Butler, Odom, and the big for Shaq, what

did Pat Riley do as GM of the Heat?

YOu can't separate BK's great moves which were

not the easiest moves to make...

from the rest of his moves (some based on the

circumstances were reasonable) to try to show

BK being inept.

Unfortunately, you have to consider his total

work.

Moreover, if you're not excited by his good

moves, then you're not the most astute

person on the board.

How many other GMs have we had in the History of

the Hawks have brought in an allstar and possibly drafted

an allstar as well.

[AtLaS]

Quote:

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Quote:

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I would like to step in and ask,

what IS there to like about BK's moves?

Other than the JJ trade,

and the Smoove (obvious) drafting, WHAT??

---

This is your question.

I think it's a bad question...

Here's what it seems like to me:

Other than trading Vlade for Kobe and picking

up Shaq, what did Jerry West do for the Lakers

in his last days as GM?

Other than drafting Wade and

moving Butler, Odom, and the big for Shaq, what

did Pat Riley do as GM of the Heat?

YOu can't separate BK's great moves which were

not the easiest moves to make...

from the rest of his moves (some based on the

circumstances were reasonable) to try to show

BK being inept.

Unfortunately, you have to consider his total

work.

Moreover, if you're not excited by his good

moves, then you're not the most astute

person on the board.

How many other GMs have we had in the History of

the Hawks have brought in an allstar and possibly drafted

an allstar as well.

---

Diesel you are killing me. Shaq and Kobe are both MILES ahead of ANYONE on our team, they don't even compare. Together, they are LIGHT YEARS ahead. SHAQ IS A TOP 3 BIG MAN OF ALL TIME! When we get one of the top big men of all time, I will only worry about 2 players. Besides, the Lakers weren't rebuilding with top 5 picks for 4 straight years either.

BK has drafted over 10 players since he's been the GM, and not ONE of them has been a pg or center, that's just bad drafting. He's made horrible trades, he hired a horrible coach, he's signed horrible FA's. Any GM in the league would have drafted better than we have given the amount of high draft picks we have possessed.

Yes, I am VERY excited about Smoove and JJ, but they aren't Shaq and Kobe, Wade and Shaq, Duncan and Ginobli/Parker. I do think Smith will get better and think he will be an all-star one day, but we could be SO MUCH better if not for all of BK's indefensible moves. He's had a #6, #5, and a #2 and blown all three.

I agree that you can't fault some1 for bringing in 1, and possibly 2 all-stars, but when you've had as many chances as BK has had, it's unacceptable.

[TexasPete]

Good luck in a debate with Diesel. It's like talking to a 14-year old. You just shake your head and go...huh?