Shelden: Disappointment

[coachx]

Glad some people have the patience to appreciate Marvin's growth like Texas Pete.

Marvin is ripped too much on this board.

When he was drafted everyone said you don't grade this pick immediatly - it will take 3 years. I think MArvin is moving along right on schedule.

[DJlaysitup]

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Glad some people have the patience to appreciate Marvin's growth like Texas Pete...

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I think a lot of people on this board see Marvin's progress (I do)...

I also see that another thread which was started to discuss what may be a serious problem on this team - has been Hijacked to argue the same old Marvin and CP3/Deron stuff.

Woody's gotta love this sort of fan reaction. He can pretty much do as he pleases - knowing that any controversy will end up with fans arguing the same old Marvin jazz.

[Guest Walter]

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Here's an excert from an article in the AJC.

playing rotation because, as coach Mike Woodson put it, he isn't "doing enough of the dirty work we drafted him to do."

"I'm going to stay on him to do [the dirty work] and his minutes will continue to be based on that," Woodson said. "A lot of times matchups have been the problem. It's tough to play him on some of the power forwards that are really perimeter guys. They can put the ball on the floor and shoot it, and it's tough to put him out there in those situations."

It's been even tougher for Williams to make the adjustment from being a mainstay at Duke to a

role player

for the Hawks.

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Woodson can't but look in the mirror and across the desk at BK for this MASSIVE draft error. Considering SW has NO potential this pick is ALREADY a bust. Can't blame SW for that.

SW cannot even make the transition to a "role player" for the Hawks, a team that badly needed some sort of interior defense. How a GM or coach couldn't see this is beyond me and unfortunately too many fans are willing to give faith-based free passes to these management knuckle-heads.

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[Guest Walter]

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Shelden played fine earlier in the season. I will agree he's been a dissapointment thus far, but not to the point where he should be invisible.

How many times have people brought up "Woody's doghouse" on this forum?

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That's total BS. SW was considered a Woodson pick, a player he asked for. He didn't turn his back on him without OBVIOUS good reason. Just watch SW. He's horrible. He cannot even justify being a role player for US a team that AT LEAST needs that.

I don't know what's more embarassing, SW's play, particularly his utter lack of shot blocking, or the "Woody doghouse" defense of the player Woody wanted. Shameful.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Everyone agreed that the Hawks needed interior defense going into the draft. Shelden was the best player available to fit that need when #5 rolled around.

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Quit defending your position with "everybody" this and "BPA" (WTF!?!) that. SW has already punked you!

I agreed we needed interior defense but insisted we'd be better off:

1) getting it at the center position, especially if we were drafting a prospect.

2) getting a FA Pf like Gooden, Wilcox, or Nene if we couldn't fill the need with a center

...than ever, EVER, E-V-E-R considering Shelden Williams.

Hell, we didn't even try him or anyone else out. A COMPLETE FARCE. GSUteke, the only reason you try to half-ass, patheticly defend it is because you put your stamp of approval on it. You got PUNKED a half season into it. PUNKED!

You also know, there was a time Aroujo was "the best player available to fit that need when ? pick rolled around". It was a lie then and it's a lie now. SW wasn't the BPA AT ANYTHING. Milsap kicks his ass as a 2nd rder and I'd MUCH rather have Sene who has at least potential and the raw, physical ability to be an impact player in this league.

GSUteke, you got PUNKED. Take it like a man.

W

[AtLaS]

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Atlas, you know what Diesel said you just love play Bill O'Riley and twist words out of context and use stats that weaken your point not improve it.

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Please tell me where I made a point that didn't address what he said, or took something out of context. I said that I DO THINK Shelden will be a good player, just not for our team.

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An example was the point you tried to make about Al not being a better low post scorer than Smoove b/c Al's FG % is 45% and Smoove is 43%, not a big difference on the surface.

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I agree that Al was a better low post scorer. And Al got the majority of his points in the paint, but he was NOT a very effective low post player, this is why he shot 45%. He was a turnover machine, and missed layups ALL the time. Do you not realize that many teams DON'T have a low post presence (offensively and defensively)? The only low post presence I want is if someone is going to shoot over 50% being a back to the basket player, and Shelden was NOT this player, not even in college. He wasn't drafted to be a low post scorer for our team, I can't believe Diesel is making that argument, and I can't believe you are jumping on me for correcting it. He was drafted to be a DEFENSIVE post presence., and so far he hasn't even shown he can be very effective at that.

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Too bad it has nothing to do with Diesels point. You should see that Smoove scores more like a SH with his slashing. No low post game to force double teams and run an offense through.

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Actually a PG and a coach with any resemblance of an offensive scheme would help our offense a LOT more.

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Smoove may score 1 or 2 baskets a game on true low post scoring in the half court set. Al did this 5 to 10 times a game. Enough you could run the offense from the inside out on occasion.It was his jumper that was inconsistent last year and huet his FG%.

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First off, when has Harrington EVER had a consistent jumpshot? And again, Shelden was not drafted to be a goto back to the basket scorer. So that point is moot.

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Al's post scoring is better then anyone on the team last year but his defense was horrible.

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Doesn't matter because Shelden was not drafted to be a low post scorer.

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Not tometion we were last in the league in opponents points in the paint witha tweener playing PF last year.

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And again, I agree COMPLETELY here, but the fact is that Shelden was either drafted to play PF and bench Smoove or Marvin, or be a bench player himself, which is not smart by BK. Roy or Foye would be SO much more valuable to our team.

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Now can you see why a true low post player was needed in the draft? Can you see why a prudent person would not be comfortable with Smoove and Batista being the only PFs on the roster ?

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There is a reason most Hawks fans hate the Shelden pick. Shelden is 6'7 and NOT a true low post player (except defensively, and so far that's not even confirmed). Shelden probably scores 60% of his points on jumpshots.

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Even a casual fan should see this. I think you know this - but you have a great love of argueing and taking quotes out of context.

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How do I have a great love of arguing? If we acquired a post player that had the potential to be a dominant PF in terms of post play, AND was a good defender I would have been all for the pick. But the fact is that Shelden wasn't and isn't.

[DJlaysitup]

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...Woodson can't but look in the mirror and across the desk at BK for this MASSIVE draft error. Considering SW has NO potential this pick is ALREADY a bust.

W

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I'll agree with the first part Walt...a bigtime error with a #5 pick. If you want a guy to "do the dirty work (shovel out the stalls)...you don't burn a 5 on that.

As far as NO potential - I disagree. I think guys like SW and Milsap have the potential to have solid careers in the league and be contributors on successful teams. Stars? not likely...but as you mentioned, it ain't Shelden's fault he got drafted where he did.

[gsuteke]

Walter people like you and Diesel can't discuss issues like these with an open mind because you have dug yourselves too big a hole with your message board politics.

Walter I don't care if I'm wrong about the Hawks. You do. that's a problem man and to be quite frank with you it does concern me somewhat. that's why I stopped "arguing" with you over Sene.

You guys draw these lines in the sand that keep you from debating these subjects reasonably without threads spiraling out of control.

Me, I'm just here for the entertainment my friend.... and for that I owe you a big "thank you."

[Guest Walter]

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As far as NO potential - I disagree. I think guys like SW and Milsap have the potential to have solid careers in the league and be contributors on successful teams. Stars? not likely...but as you mentioned, it ain't Shelden's fault he got drafted where he did.

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It's clear Milsap has considerably more potential, even defensively. The guy blocks at least twice as many SPG as SW and he uses his size MUCH better in all aspects of the game.

One stat, Milsap has shot 279 FTAs in 1007 minutes. SW...245 (1062 minutes). That's 11 FTs per 40 MPG for Milsap and 9 for SW in 40 MPG. That may seem small, but it indicates that already Milsap plays a more physical game necessary for a 6'7" Pf to have much if any effectiveness.

W

[exodus]

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The biggest move turing against BK is Marvin.

Had we gotten Paul or Deron there would be no Speedy or no talk about Roy... We'd be in the playoff picture right now.

Trying to justify everything we have done for Marvin is what is recking this team and keeping certain players in the doghouse.

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Hmmm. This is what you said not long ago.

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The only time Diesel criticizes Marvin is when there are a whole lot of praise for Marvin or excuses for why Marvin is not producing.

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The only time I mention Marvin is when Somebody comes in with those same old excuses about how he's going to be KG or Kobe someday but he's being held back by a handbrace or he's being held back by his age or he's being held back by a coach or a GM or the girl on the second row keeps looking at him...

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HYPOCRITE

So where exactly in this thread was someone making excuses for Marvin before you made your comments?

[Guest Walter]

MW has excuses made for him. SW has legitimate reasons

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[TexasPete]

Shelden is already 23 so he is not going to get significantly better as far as his athleticism. He may learn to one day use his mind to become a better player, and he may make himself into a serviceable player. But, this guy is not going to just blossom one day and justify being the 5th pick.

Marvin has athleticism and has a great looking shot. The NBA is loaded with pure athletes...Marvin dunks on guys and can put the ball on the floor. He does need more polish but it is no stretch to see him score 18-20ppg in the next year or two. Shelden? No chance. He doesn't have the game, the tools necessary to make that happen. He is nowhere close to being a 5th pick. How our GM could look at this kid and think he was the solution to the inside problem is beyond comprehension. And to decide months ahead of the draft that this kid was our pick is a hanging offense because it shows a basic lack of professionalism. We don't even work him out because our GM is so good at what he does he can spot them a mile away. Yeah, right.

This whole Shelden debacle is the final straw for me on why I won't spend another dime supporting this management group. My main fear with this team is that we are so poorly run from top to bottom that we are all just kidding ourselves that this team will ever realize it's full potential. Our GM/Coach tandem is as poor as it gets and the ownership mess is a reflection of some people who don't need to be running an NBA franchise.

Why is Woody pissed at Shelden? Shelden is exactly who many on this board thought he was...

[Guest Walter]

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Shelden is already 23 so he is not going to get significantly better as far as his athleticism. He may learn to one day use his mind to become a better player, and he may make himself into a serviceable player. But, this guy is not going to just blossom one day and justify being the 5th pick.

Marvin has athleticism and has a great looking shot. The NBA is loaded with pure athletes...Marvin dunks on guys and can put the ball on the floor. He does need more polish but it is no stretch to see him score 18-20ppg in the next year or two. Shelden? No chance. He doesn't have the game, the tools necessary to make that happen. He is nowhere close to being a 5th pick. How our GM could look at this kid and think he was the solution to the inside problem is beyond comprehension. And to decide months ahead of the draft that this kid was our pick is a hanging offense because it shows a basic lack of professionalism. We don't even work him out because our GM is so good at what he does he can spot them a mile away. Yeah, right.

This whole Shelden debacle is the final straw for me on why I won't spend another dime supporting this management group. My main fear with this team is that we are so poorly run from top to bottom that we are all just kidding ourselves that this team will ever realize it's full potential. Our GM/Coach tandem is as poor as it gets and the ownership mess is a reflection of some people who don't need to be running an NBA franchise.

Why is Woody pissed at Shelden? Shelden is exactly who many on this board thought he was...

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I am not the biggest MW's supporter but I do respect his potential. I have no such respect for Shelden William's potential as there isn't much if any. He's a minor injury away from his strength being reduced and then he's a career 4/4/.25 guy...if that.

I think you summed it up best saying "a lack of professionalism". Given our ownership had just recently been tagged with the same problem in the Belkin fiasco and everyone involved with the extended JJ deal, you'd think this ownership would insist that all the "i" were dotted and "t"s were crossed. Instead they let management settle on a player without trying him out or ANYONE else of merit, they let that same management make a promise that only hurt the team and helped the other 29 teams, and they let him pick a marginal role player with a 5th pick. On top of this we have a 2nd unprofessional episode with the ever-long Al trade.

Certainly BK is a baffoon, but frankly, he AND our ownership are unprofessional.

W

[DrReality]

I would be interested to know how many guys have come out of duke and flopped vs done really well. I'd venture to say that percentage would not be very high. Gotta have something to do with the system there. What was the othe dukie we drafted that flopped?

[TexasPete]

After the draft I emailed Levenson and asked him how they could promise a player a month before the draft and how we could draft a guy without working him out in person? He claimed there was no promise...it was all a coincidence that we shut down the draft early and every major NBA beat guy mentioned we were taking him back in May. ALL the ESPN guys were saying the same thing...their sources all had us taking Shelden, that we had promised him. Most of these guys all said they thought the reports must be bogus because even Billy Knight wouldn't be that foolish. But, as the draft grew close the ESPN guys all kept saying they were almost certain SW was headed to the Hawks.

Levenson wrote back and said that the workouts were overrated, that they were really just a formality and not really necessary. I wrote back asking him why the other 29 teams all worked out the guys they drafted if they weren't necessary...and why did we always work out guys in the past? If its all just a waste they why do it? Do the Spirit and BK know something the rest of the teams don't? Why would you not even bring the kid in for a closer look? I think BK was trying to outsmart other GMs into thinking we weren't interested...what he didn't know was that nobody gave a crap.

You know whats interesting? Now, when you mention the promise to Bernie Mullen and Levenson they don't deny it. These guys are all a bunch of chuckleheads.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter people like you and Diesel can't discuss issues like these with an open mind because you

have dug yourselves too big a hole with your message board politics

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For an example of one "digging ones' self too big a hole with their message board politics" see...

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....rev=#Post167855

Scroll down to the emaciated african(?) with a neck brace and GSUteke's quote "Saer Sene after attempting to block Shellhead's shot...".

Shellhead ain't [censored] and wasn't then GSUteke, but your message board politics and hypocrisy are a trip. Remember being mad at Sunsfan for going to another forum only to stir up trouble and then braggin about it. Hell, that's what YOU do. Could you post your face on any of those pictures as you've been PUNKED.

W

[Dejay]

The Marvin over Paul/Williams pick will haunt this franchise the same way the Nique trade and Koncak pick has until he grows up (soon) and become the game changing 24/8 guy BK claims he'll be.

Talk about playoff picture; if Paul had been drafted, the Hawks would've been in the playoff picture LAST YEAR. Remember, they lost 40 of 56 games by >10 points; you're telling me that CP3 wouldn't have made the difference in at least a dozen of those games?

As for Sheldon, well, I tried my best to see BK's rationale on drafting him so high. I think its more of a time-space continuance thing. If Paul was drafted, the Hawks would've been drafting much lower, which would've made the Sheldon pick not look nearly as bad. Instead, BK fouled up the pick, gave $25 million to his backup, bought into Sheldon wayyy too early, and still waiting on MW to justify it all. Good grief...

[Diesel]

By saying that BK's biggest mistake in drafting was drafting Shelden is automatically making an excuse for Marvin.

If you had to say what was more franchise destroying:

Passing on CP3 or Deron...

vs.

Passing on Roy...

What would you say??

So how can you ignore passing on CP3 or Deron unless you're giving some kind of excuse for it??

[Guest Walter]

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By saying that BK's biggest mistake in drafting was drafting Shelden is automatically making an excuse for Marvin.

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Isn't that you just making another excuse for Shellhead?

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If you had to say what was more franchise destroying:

Passing on CP3 or Deron...

vs.

Passing on Roy...

What would you say??

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I didn't know "franchise destroying" was the definition of biggest mistake but the mere fact that your defense of SW isn't about SW but MW whom you hate is an indication of just how indefensible the SW selection was and your support of it continues to be.

I'm not going to get into an argument here as I think both SW and MW were equally gigantic draft errors, but frankly Roy is closer in talent to Paul or Deron than you think (just not a pure Pg) and SW has NONE of the potential MW has. I guess I would say that because Paul and Deron are true Pgs, the MW pick hurts a tiny bit worse, but because SW or the top players weren't even tried out, an unneeded, team-d@mning promise was made, and SW is at best a role player without potential, BK's selection of him at 5 was far more stupid.

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So how can you ignore passing on CP3 or Deron unless you're giving some kind of excuse for it??

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I don't think any Hawk fan but KB can "ignore it", but frankly, you continue to ignore the mistake to draft, much less promise to SW. You're throwing boomerangs here Diesel.

W

[exodus]

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By saying that BK's biggest mistake in drafting was drafting Shelden is automatically making an excuse for Marvin.

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Your hypocrisy shines through. What a bunch on nonsense.

I didn't even notice who said that but most likely their perception is that Marvin can become a good NBA player and long term starter, while Shelden can't. And if the Hawks are able to get a quality pg then the harm of the Marvin pick will be minimized.

Just because you disagree with that doesn't mean people are making excuses for Marvin. WHAT IT MEANS IS THAT YOU ARE JUST LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE TO INTERJECT YOUR MARVIN HATE INTO A THREAD THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MARVIN.