ATL Fans need to learn"Due Process" ...Vick.....?

[wolvetigers]

I'm back from DC and all aside from all the national attention its discouraging to see some of our fair weather ATL fans pass judgement without even letting Due process work...I know 680 fan and Terrence Moore need to get people riled up for ratings , but when I hear fans agree blindly it makes me just shake my head. Just b/c Senators and Legislators bring up Vick in Congress over dog allegations is less time they can get pummeled for the War in Iraq. Then I hear people say well he was indicted by the federal govt. An indictment is serious allegations, but that is just it...serious allegations. You dont need much proof for an indictment. Hell the federal govt also believed there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq too.. DONT GET ME WRONG....If VICK is found guilty then feed him to the wolves, but damn Fans are saying through him out of town, he wont play in Atlanta again and this and that without even a guilty verdict. Its almost laughable - I WILL SAY VICK IS GUILTY OF BEING STUPID for getting into this situation, but that doesnt mean we should burn him at the stakes.....THere is a reason why Atl fans dont when championship b/c we want to rush to judgement without letting things play out.

The same people saying trade Marvin Williams for the Hawks without even letting him grow in the maturing process...Damn its a sad reality of being an ATL FAN.

[Buzzard]

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but damn Fans are saying through him out of town, he wont play in Atlanta again and this and that without even a guilty verdict. Its almost laughable - I WILL SAY VICK IS GUILTY OF BEING STUPID for getting into this situation, but that doesnt mean we should burn him at the stakes.....THere is a reason why Atl fans dont when championship b/c we want to rush to judgement without letting things play out.

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Well guess what genius, stupid people like Vick have no business representing a class city like Atlanta. Hell, Nike has already dumped his stupid ass. Maybe out in the sticks somewhere his behavior and associates are accepted as a normal day to day routine; but in Blanks house, you better beleive he is packing his bags and all I have left to say is good ridance...

[D.R.P.]

Yeah its pretty stupid to automatically act like its a fact that Vick's guilty. An indictment does not prove guilt only suspicion of guilt. Plus if people read the indictment clearly they will see that its hearsay from witness who have been involved in dog fighting mostly themselves. Also why don't the feds have exact dates; to me that will be the sticking point, the feds will have to prove that Vick was were they say he was at certain exact dates not phrases like "in and around early April or in and around late December", the feds should have no problem coming up with exact dates if they have proof outside of hearsay. A good defense lawyer (like the one Vick has hired) will eat that hearsay up in court; Ive seen it as a juror on a human murder trial last year. The trial I was a juror on was strangely similar to this situation, due to the fact that the witnesses against the defendant were trying to pin everything on the defendant to save their on hide. Just listening to the prosecutor's opening argument made me want to convict the guy before we even heard the defense opening statement, then the defense attorney blew what the prosecutor had to say out of the water (then I knew we had a real trial on our hands and I could feel myself and the other jurors tense up; the real thing is nothing like something you see on Law and Order.) The defendant was found not guilty of murder. The bottom line is if you only hear one side it's really premature to convict someone based on hearsay. I have some questions for those who feel that the indictment proves Vick is guilty, where is Vick's cousin on the indictment, why has he not been charged with anything ,why aren't people outraged over his cousin not being charged with anything? In closing, if Vick's guilty the feds will prove it in court, why convict the guy when you have only heard one side, people just don't learn from previous incidents. "Does the Duke Lacrosse case not ring a bell"?

[D.R.P.]

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Hell, Nike has already dumped his stupid ass.

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Yeah Nike has dumped Vick like Nike dumped Kobe. All Nike did was not release Vick's shoe and push stuff off the website just like they did with Kobe. Unlike some companies and people Nike has the sense to let due process take place.

[Buzzard]

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Hell, Nike has already dumped his stupid ass.

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Yeah Nike has dumped Vick like Nike dumped Kobe. All Nike did was not release Vick's shoe and push stuff off the website just like they did with Kobe. Unlike some companies and people Nike has the sense to let due process take place.

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So they are not putting out his shoe and they are not marketing his name. Is that not the same as the Falcons not playing Vick? I guess Vick must have used the rape board himself on the dogs and all those injured dogs; that is just the way all pit bulls are raised. You are a friggin idiot...

He owned the property and the damn dogs are on his property. I guess there is snow balls chance in hell he had no idea what was going on. But I would bet a months pay he is guilty as charged. No doubt he gets due process; but he, just like you and me, has no guarantee of a job in this country.

He needs to find a new job out in those there hills; where he and his deliverance buddies will be accepted as normal folks...

[hawkman]

I read the indictment and it doesn't look good. All the killing of dogs aside, they seem to be pretty specific about the activities of Vick and his boys. I still can't believe that his nickname is Ookie! You'd think that it would be something cooler. The fact that he is implicated in these illegal activities with the same people that he was warned to stay away from makes me question his intelligence. The fact that he only recently sold the home where the illegal activities took place makes me even more worried about Vick's intelligence. And why in the heck was the house in Vick's name? Why would he host and attend out of state dogfights under the actual name of his kennel: Bad Newz Kennels? Why would he show his highly recognizeable face at any of these events knowing that there could possibly be undercover agents present? They would recognize him right on the spot. He could easily have one of his "crew" handle all of that stuff for him. These concerns lead me to two conclusions:

1. Vick was completely in the dark about any and all illegal activity going on at his Virginia residence(besides a little recreational weed use) and unkowingly funded the operation thinking that he was helping his people out.

2. He is the dumbest criminal mind in recent human history and I don't want anyone that dumb as the leader of any team in the ATL.

I sincerely hope that it is number 1. The guy brought real excitement to this franchise, but if he's truly guilty of these crimes it's obvious that he's done here. If that's the case, I'll root for this Joey guy(gulp!). And when he inevitably flames out, I'll root for his backup DJ Shockley

[D.R.P.]

It amazing to me how this board has people as dumb as yourself on here. How many injured dogs did they find? They only found two injured does and one was because of a birth affect.

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He owned the property and the damn dogs are on his property. I guess there is snow balls chance in hell he had no idea what was going on. But I would bet a months pay he is guilty as charged. No doubt he gets due process; but he, just like you and me, has no guarantee of a job in this country.

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So your saying if you were the landlord of a property that you rented you would know about everything that goes on at that property even if it's out of state? I'm not saying that Vick is not guilty, but I strongly suspect he's not guilty of all thats in the indictment. For the right price I bet people would say they saw you doing something you were not doing, to save their hide.

Stop and think clearly (if you can) before you reply so stupidly. At the very least reply with some logical sense attached to what you say.

Why don't you answer the questions that I had in the first post above?

[wolvetigers]

THanks DRP for explaining this up....680 Fan, Terrene Moore and others are brainwashing some of these Atl fans. Now if VICK is found guilty then so be it....His cousin actually Admitted to doing this a few months ago.

[hawkman]

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THanks DRP for explaining this up....680 Fan, Terrene Moore and others are brainwashing some of these Atl fans. Now if VICK is found guilty then so be it....His cousin actually Admitted to doing this a few months ago.

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I almost forgot about that guy. He WAS the guy that originally apologized for getting Vick involved in all of this. Why haven't there been more reports about this? He was the guy living at the home at the time all of this was happening.

[Buzzard]

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Stop and think clearly (if you can) and think before you reply so stupidly. At the very least reply with some logical sense attached to what you say.

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The logic is simple and very clear. He owned the property that was used for a criminal activity and he visited the property by his own admission. Either he is guilty as hell or he is stupid as hell. Guilty and/or stupid, I would not want him running my 100 million dollar franchise.

Is that logical enough for you?

[D.R.P.]

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I read the indictment and it doesn't look good. All the killing of dogs aside, they seem to be pretty specific about the activities of Vick and his boys.

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The indictment doesn't look good for a reason; whether Vick is guilty or not the indictment was meant to put Vick in the worst possible light. Having read over numerous criminal legal documents (oh the joy) at work, the indictment had the least amount of what I call "lawyer terms" I've ever seen on a legal document, you know the terms and phrases that usually are not understood by your average Joe's. This was done for a reason; so that the average Joe's could fully read and understand the indictment and prematurely convict Vick. The Feds are obviously trying to put as much pressure on Vick as possible, to try and make him reach a plea agreement whether he's guilty or not; its what law enforcement (especially the feds) will do as a scare tactic. I don't see Vick admitting guilt anytime soon though (as he shouldn't if he's innocent), not with the lawyer he just hired. I've discussed this at work with the lawyers on staff (reluctantly they asked me what I thought, I didn't want to bring it up) and they all agreed along with me that the smart thing to do is to wait until due process has taken place before convicting Vick.

[D.R.P.]

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Either he is guilty as hell or he is stupid as hell.

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I'll almost give you that, but I would say he's either guilty or extremely stupidly naively loyal to people who don't do the right thing. Now that was a logical response!

[D.R.P.]

Also the feds will have to prove he visited the property on exact dates in court. The part of the indictment that says Vick rode in a car to SC to attend a dog will really have to be proved undoubtedly by the feds; seeing as though this would of had to take place during the season. There is not that much time during the season for a player to hope in a car and ride to SC and attend a dog fight late a night. I will have to check and see if the falcons had a bye week late that December, otherwise I only could see early Monday as the only time that could have taken place. It would have had to taken place after a game; the players have meetings and they watch the previous game on tape early Tuesday. After Tuesday there is practice on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, then travel on Saturday.

[Buzzard]

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extremely stupidly naively loyal to people who don't do the right thing.

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If he had never been on the property himself, that would be naive. Since he has been there and undoubtedly seen the property and the dogs 1st hand, that is guilty and/or stupid.

Just wondering if you using this sentence, "loyal to people who don't do the right thing.", means the right thing would be for them to take the fall for Vick?

The criminal world just does not work like the movies. Most criminals are criminals to begin with because they have severe character defects. Loyalty and integrity being two things they obviously have the least of...

[D.R.P.]

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If he had never been on the property himself, that would be naive. Since he has been there and undoubtedly seen the property and the dogs 1st hand, that is guilty and/or stupid.

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Vick never said that he's never been on the property, he said he's hardly ever been at the property. Also a neighbor said that he's rarely seen Vick at the house, the neighbor said that at the most Vick has been at the house for a total of two weeks.

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Just wondering if you using this sentence, "loyal to people who don't do the right thing.", means the right thing would be for them to take the fall for Vick?

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How could his cousin take the fall when he's more involved (presuming guilt) than Vick, remember the cousin actually lived at the house unlike Vick. If Vick is guilty than his cousin is surely guilty. I'm outraged that his cousin has not been charged with anything. Why aren't you outraged that his cousin has not been charged with anything? Why isn't PETA outraged that his cousin has not been charged with anything? It seems PETA and others only care about publicly convicting Vick prematurely, because it brings more negative attention to the situation.

[Buzzard]

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Vick never said that he's never been on the property, he said he's hardly ever been at the property. Also a neighbor said that he's rarely seen Vick at the house, the neighbor said that at the most Vick has been at the house for a total of two weeks.

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The neighbor saw him at the house for a total of two weeks; that really does not mean a lot unless the neighbor was a peeping tom who spied on the house daily. I know Vick did not say he has never been there; in fact that supports my aurgument that he is guilty or stupid.

These people train their animals on a daily basis; it is not something they stop doing for periods at a time. Chances are good, Vick at least knew what was going on. Letting them do that on property that is in his name makes him dumb as a rock in my opinion.

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I'm outraged that his cousin has not been charged with anything. Why aren't you outraged that his cousin has not been charged with anything?

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The feds always want the money man. The top dog. The financer. If Vick is guilty, Vick is in all likelyhood that man. Ask yourself this, how many of the other three kennel owners were millionaires? Who bought the property? Now just put two and two together.

The reason for my outrage at Vick is simple. I am a Falcons fan. I do not want my team being led by this guilty and/or stupid individual. As far as the others are concerned, they can all rot in prison. My dad put it best when we were talking about this earlier today.

"If they took every guilty S.O.B. and put a collar and a leash on them, then beat them and electrocuted them just like they did the dogs, dogfighting in this country would cease to exist."

Me and my dad do not really want the feds to do that; but it does put my feelings into perspective for all the individuals who are guilty of this cruel backwoods redneck way of life.

I still cannot beleive we are reading about a college educated millionaire being charged with this crime...

[Eddielives]

And out come the Vick apologists. I guess Vick could rape your mother, punch your kids and slap you in the face and you would still say he's innocent until proven guilty. Hell, you probably believe George Bush set him up, just like he planted explosives in the trade towers. I got some bad news for you sunshine, Vick's only innocent in the eye's of government. In the world of common sense where most of us reside, he appears guilty as sin. So keep defending him and others like him despite their numerous embarrasing episodes because he's black. That's all you are doing. If he were white, you'd be calling for his head. May the fine art of race-pimping carry on.

[D.R.P.]

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And out come the Vick apologists. I guess Vick could rape your mother, punch your kids and slap you in the face and you would still say he's innocent until proven guilty. Hell, you probably believe George Bush set him up, just like he planted explosives in the trade towers. I got some bad news for you sunshine, Vick's only innocent in the eye's of government. In the world of common sense where most of us reside, he appears guilty as sin. So keep defending him and others like him despite their numerous embarrasing episodes because he's black. That's all you are doing. If he were white, you'd be calling for his head. May the fine art of race-pimping carry on.

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You sound just like a stupid racist idiot. There are plenty of white people who are willing to let do process take place. You probably believe that we invaded Iraq because they had weapons of mass destruction. I just knew it would only be a matter of time before your dumb ass would post some stupidity here ( I'm sure your boy is on his way with a bs post right after you). Write something that makes logical sense or don't post at all! If Vick's guilty the feds will prove it in court where they have to (some reason you can't understand that). Your to stupid to understand how the court system works, all you do is read (I think you can do that) articles and watch stuff on tv and let the media tell you whats true or not; you have no ability to break things down your own self.

[Beelzebob]

Please explain to me what company would let you keep your job if you had been federally indicted? Why should Vick be any different?

I’m tired of hearing this bull$hit about how everyone needs to wait for “due process”. The guy owns property that was used for training and fighting dogs for years. Of course he knew about it and condoned it. In time he will face his punishment after “due process”. At least I hope he will anyway. I imagine he has already started singing like a canary for a plea bargain.

Mike Vick is a disgrace to the Falcons and Atlanta.

[exodus]

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Either he is guilty as hell or he is stupid as hell.

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Exactly.

And the "guilty until proven innocent" standard only applies in regards to getting convicted. That standard doesn't apply in regards to having an opinion on the case.