TP on Childress...

[Lascar78]

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I really don't care how someone scores, as long as they score. Childress is more efficient and scores just as much, which is really all that matters.

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Except that when he starts, he isn't nearly that efficient. Put Marvin against the other team's second unit more often without JJ taking so many shots and his numbers will probably go up. Chill has consistently shown that he does significantly worse when he starts.

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There is no reason that Marvin shouldn't be able to move without the ball or rebound as well as Childress.

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I agree. Those two things are probably the two areas he needs to work on the most, along with attacking the rim consistently.

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That's just not true, he can't create at all. He has the jab step jumper and that's basically it. I'm not saying Childress can create either, but Marvin (as of last year) has not shown that ability.

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So he's getting all the free throws off of jumpers? Marvin doesn't have great moves yet, but he finds ways to take it straight to the hoop and get his man to foul him, often after a pump fake.

Again, put both guys at the top of the key in an isolation with a man on them. Marvin can jab and then shoot the J, or he can pump fake and drive and typically get at least 2 free throws. Chill can do neither.

I really like Chill and hope he keeps getting big minutes, but I much prefer him off the bench.

[Lascar78]

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Reggie Miller, Alan Houston, and Shawn Marion couldn't create for themselves.

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Reggie Miller and Alan Houston are two of the greatest shooters of all-time, and excelled at getting themselves wide open shots. And even with that, they were both way better at creating their own shots than Chill is. As for Marion, he can create just fine. He frequently drives one way and spins to get himself to the rim. You see it less now that he plays with Nash who holds the ball for most of their plays, but Marion can create for himself just find. Not to mention that he doesn't need nearly the space that Chill does to get a shot off because while he also has a very low release, he has arguably the quickest release in the whole league whereas Chill has the timing of a regular jump shooter.

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Recognize his role and let him play it.

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I do. 6th man. He has proven it time and time again. Why don't you recognize it and let him play it. It seems he accepts it just fine.

[TexasPete]

I almost feel sorry for you. Not quite, but almost. The agendaman is spewing off more garbage again. Chill is a little overrated on defense. It isn't that he's bad, its just that he's not good. Marvin is 3 full years younger than Chill. Chill is not a better player than Marvin, I would say they are razor close. Both do some things better than the other. But to say that Chill should be starting with 100% certainty is midguided although I find most of your schtick to be off base.

Chill just comes off the bench better. He is a great guy to have come in as the 6th man. The last time I checked, the 6th man was a vital role that needs filling on most good teams. He doesn't care, why do you? Forget that, Agendaman, I know why you care that he doesn't start.

It's amazing, almost every post you make is related to your agenda.

[gsuteke]

Hawks 42 - TWolves 28

Sorry HotSauce, couldn't resist

[AtLaS]

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Except that when he starts, he isn't nearly that efficient. Put Marvin against the other team's second unit more often without JJ taking so many shots and his numbers will probably go up.

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I would agree, except that Childress plays almost 37 minutes per game, it's not like he's spending the majority of the time against a 2nd unit. And he almost ALWAYS plays in crunch time.

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So he's getting all the free throws off of jumpers?

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I'm talking about last season. Marvin only averaged about .5 more free throws per48 than Childress, not a significant difference. I haven't seen Marvin or Chill play this preseason, so I'll withhold judgement until I have.

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Again, put both guys at the top of the key in an isolation with a man on them.

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Well, Marvin would probably do better, but neither are good at isolations at all, so that comparison really doesn't matter IMO.

[Diesel]

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Reggie Miller and Alan Houston are two of the greatest shooters of all-time, and excelled at getting themselves wide open shots.

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Did you watch them play...

Their teams made offensive schemes around their shooting. Reggie Miller would run around 3 picks to have time to shoot his "wide open" shot. That's not creating for yourself. That's a team scheme built around helping you score.

The same is true to a lesser extent for Houston. He never "beat anybody off the dribble". His was either the set shot or the shot off the screen.

[Diesel]

Teabag Pete feels sorry for me.. AHH How touching??

Look here teabag, don't feel sorry for me... Because I'm right.

IF you want to feel sorry for somebody. Go check out that invention called a mirror and look in it. After you move Marvin's sack out of the way, the guy you see is the one you should feel sorry for!

[DJlaysitup]

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...The only place this becomes a problem is "Create for yourself" line.

Well, How much do you really need a player to create for themselves to be successful? That's the whining of a team without a PG. I would rather get a PG who can create for others than be hoepful that I can find players that can create for themselves...

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Well, truth #1 is most good teams DO need a player who can create for himself (as long as he doesn't go crazy and do it all the time). That's basically the definition of the "go to" guy. JJ is a great player but lacks the explosiveness to the hoop at crunch time...and therefore he gets chased around the perimeter by two defenders (at least last year). He may very well be more aggressive/creative this year and become more of a clutch "go to" guy.

truth #2 - MW hasn't shown that he can create for himself enough in the regular season yet to mortgage the farm on him being this year's "go to" guy either.

So....in the great Marvin vs. Chillz debate - it may just be that the success of the Hawks will fall on other players and neither MW or Chillz will be our clutch guys. They may both just be solid role players...with somewhat different skills...but basically interchangeable in the grand scheme of things.

Walla...10,000 posts in this never-ending argument and it may just be that they are both pretty effective but neither is the budding superstar or the hideous bust predicted by the opposing factions.

[Buzzard]

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"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends...we're so glad you could attend...come inside, come inside" - ELP

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I agree with you 100%. This MWill vs anyone is the show that never ends...

[DJlaysitup]

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"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends...we're so glad you could attend...come inside, come inside" - ELP

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I agree with you 100%. This MWill vs anyone is the show that never ends...

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Well in all fairness, I guess it's been something to talk about until the real season starts.

That's why I sent an email to Stern. I explained that I thought the NBA season was wimpy compared to the 162 + playoffs that MLB plays. I said I felt we need at least 92 games in the regular season and that I felt it should be done retroactively...meaning that we would accept our current record even though we have played a few games resting dinged up PGs. I hope he understands and agrees

[Diesel]

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truth #1 is most good teams DO need a player who can create for himself

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Wouldn't this guy be JJ or JSmoove?

[DrReality]

I hope Marvin doesn't get traded because I fear D would lose his purpose in life: complain about him and how he needs to be traded. Would hate to see D become suicidal.

[TexasPete]

Sorry to break the news to you Agendaman, but Marvin will have a solid season and make your already miserable life even more lousy. There are very few people on here who think Marvin should come off the bench while Chill starts. It's illogical. Of course, illogical is right in your wheel house.

Let me clue you in...you are right about so little it's sad. The fact that you have 20,000+ posts about something that you don't understand is pitiful. Find yourself a new hobby.

[Diesel]

If he doesn't...or if he is traded, I'm sure that we've seen the last of Teabag Pete around here!

[TexasPete]

I've been sitting in the stands since Maravich so I doubt trading Marvin will make me give up the Hawks.

And I don't even care about Marvin as much as JJ or Smoove. You never did grasp that concept. I'm OK with Marvin. I see Marvin as a young guy with upside just like most rational people. I only jump in and DEFEND him against your blatant stupidity. You too thick to get that.

If we traded Marvin tommorow and got a good deal then I'm happy. As long as we get strong value back.

Listen up. Your driving people crazy with your every post a Marvin agenda. Marvin is playing well at the moment but you still keep ramming this stuff with every post. We all know you hate him. Move along, please.

You just started a thread with JJ talking about how he doesn't like the PG spot. Low and behold you work an anti-Marvin slant into the post. It's freaking ridiculous.

Then, you'll turn around and support Shelden to the death...the one lottery pick that is the biggest bust by far. Man, you make no sense at all.

[Diesel]

Please... When confronted, that's always your answer.

However, your posting history suggest differently. You are the most LOYAL Marvin Apologist on this board. You don't post unless you're posting to promote or protect Marvin. So you can save your in the stands since Maravich propaganda for somebody else. As I always say: Time Will TELL!

[TexasPete]

Just exactly what do I have to apologize for? If Marvin's preseason had been poor you would be all over him. And you will jump on him the first poor stretch he has.

I believe in Marvin's upside. That's it. And I do resent a guy like you who doesn't know jack about the game. You call yourself a Hawks fan and you piss on this guy day after day, post after post. You use JJ posts about PG, you use every angle in the book. Your so transparent it's sickening.

I think SW is a poor lotto pick but if he comes around I'll back him 100%...because I'm a hawk fan and it's in my best interest to see him come around. You on the other hand? Hell would freeze over before you would give MW a crumb. I really don't understand the agenda.

Maybe you can explain your hatred for the kid. This goes beyond normal stuff. It's like your existence is built on this vendetta against a basketball player. It's actually pretty strange.

[Diesel]

What do you mean all Over him?

Do you mean suggesting that he should not get starters Minutes Over Chillz?

You're right!!

However, I have the belief that the best players should be on the floor.

When I listen to your continuous Protection/Promotion of Marvin, you don't have the same belief UNLESS it means that Marvin is on the floor. Therefore, you're only a fan of the team when Marvin is a top dog. Yeah, I know Maravich in the stands..blah blah blah. All I know is that from your first post on Hawksqauwk, your posts have centered around Marvin!

[TexasPete]

Look at the poll up right now about how people think Childress should be used. Your in a minority of THREE people who believe in the Marvin shouldn't start over Chill conspiracy.

This whole Marvin doesn't deserve minutes crap is just simple minded stuff that stems from your agenda. Not sure why you always post this crap, maybe because you run out of things to say.

Apparently, your in the minority on Marvin and a microscopic minority at that. See, most people think your WRONG. You whine like a little sissy every day about this stuff....Josh Smith is out of position...Chill should be starting...Smith has to be traded...blah, blah. It's all somehow related to Marvin.

Let me clue you in although your the last to know...Marvin will be a damn good NBA player sooner rather than later. And you can accept that and enjoy it as a supposed Hawk fan or you can keep crying like the pansy you are. Either way I'm finished with you because I've already violated my rule of debating with someone whose IQ is less than 70.

[AHF]

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What do you mean all Over him?

Do you mean suggesting that he should not get starters Minutes Over Chillz?

You're right!!

However, I have the belief that the best players should be on the floor.

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The good news is that Josh Childress had the second highest MPG last season. Accordingly, no one is getting starters minutes at his expense. He is getting starters minutes already. The poll is just how best to allocate those minutes to him - as a starting SF or as the 6 man SG/SF.