Hawks should ABANDON uptempo philosophy

[TheNorthCydeRises]

. . . and only run when they get STOPS on the defensive end. So that means that they really need to concentrate on being a better DEFENSIVE and REBOUNDING TEAM. Don't believe me? Well check this out.

In the 2 wins:

DALLAS:

79 shot attempts ( -1 differential )

31 free throws ( +6 differential )

52 rebounds ( +14 differential )

15 turnovers ( - 2 differential )

11 fast break points ( -2 differenital )

PHOENIX:

90 shot attempts ( +4 differential )

23 free throws ( +6 differential )

56 rebounds ( +16 differential )

16 turnovers ( -2 differential )

14 fast break points ( -6 differential )

In the 4 losses:

DETROIT: ( a game we should've won )

72 shots attempts ( -9 differential )

26 free throws ( +5 differential )

41 rebounds ( +4 differential )

19 turnovers ( -5 differential )

8 fast break points ( -12 differential )

NEW JERSEY:

68 shot attempts ( -10 differential )

32 free throws ( +12 differential )

35 rebounds ( -10 differential )

19 turnovers ( -2 differential )

13 fast break points ( +5 differential )

BOSTON:

70 shot attempts ( +3 differential )

25 free throws ( even differential )

29 rebounds ( -10 differential )

19 turnovers ( -1 differential )

19 fast break points ( +9 differential )

WASHINGTON:

77 shot attempts ( - 11 differential )

35 free throws ( +10 differential )

41 rebounds ( -12 differential )

11 turnovers ( +1 differential )

20 fast break points ( +6 differential )

And look at the fast break points in those final 3 games. We've actually gotten more fast break points than our opponent in those games, but it didn't matter one bit. Not when you're getting outrebounded the way we were in each of those games.

When I partially blamed Josh Smith for the loss against Washington, this is the reason why? Versus Dallas, Phoenix and Detroit, Smoove averaged 10.3 rebounds in those games. Versus New Jersey, Boston, and Washington, Smoove averaged 5.3 rebounds

Same thing goes for Marvin Williams in those games. 7.7 rebounds vs DAL, DET, and PHX. 4.7 rebounds vs NJ, BOS, and WAS ( note: he got 12 rebounds against Washington, but only 2 TOTAL vs NJ and BOS. )

Even Horford, who has grabbed 10 rebounds or more in all but 2 games, just grabbed 7 rebounds vs Boston and New Jersey.

If Smith or Williams are on the outside, and a shot is taken and missed, it's easy for him to crash the boards. If Smith or Williams is on the outside, and a shot is taken and missed either from the post or via penetration, one or both of them can't get to the ball in time, which leads to 2nd chance rebounds and points.

See, what most of you don't understand, is that we look good against the running teams, ONLY if those running teams are missing a ton of jumpshots. And our length as a basketball team, has a lot to do with them missing those jumpers. It's easy to hold those types of teams to one shot and done.

Which brings me to Joe Johnson.

The exact same thing that applies to Smith and his rebounding, applies to JJ and his shooting. To me, he's always been a rhythm type shooter. When he tries to go too fast with his offense, his shot will tend to be off.

When Diesel cites that JJ will be a spot-up shooter in a traditional uptempo offense, he's exactly right. The problem with that, is that he's our best all-around offensive player period, whether it be with the jumper of if we put him on the block. And if we have our forwards racing the ball upcourt, with their heads down and not up, playing uptempo is pretty useless.

JJ has to make a point to take good shots, but be aggressive at the same time. When the J isn't falling, he needs to be looking to draw contact, to get to the line.

So here's what's happening.

- Hawks get a rebound, and throw an outlet pass out of bounds because they're trying to go too fast. This happens maybe 2 - 4 times a game.

- Hawks get a rebound, and one of the forwards race the ball upcourt, sometimes going all the way to the basket. If he misses, the possession is lost. If he gets fouled or makes the shot, it's a good thing. If he turns it over, it's a bad thing.

- Hawks get a rebound, and walk the ball upcourt. Then, because the 1/2 court execution isn't there, the ball goes into JJ's hands, and he forces up a shot while doubled.

- Shot on the inside goes up, and the opponent has 3 people to our 2 around the basket. Horford or Smoove either grabs a tough rebound, or the other team gets the rebound and puts the ball right back in the hole.

I'm not against running. I'm against running just for the hell of it. I don't want this team to run, if one of our forwards takes it upon himself to race the ball up the court just to be doing it. If the PG can't do it, I don't want anybody doing it.

We might be "built to run", but not when the PG isn't even controlling the break. So if that's the case, we might as well not run in the first place. We're not Phoenix nor Golden St, so we should stop pretending like we are.

We're acutally "built to defend and rebound". But I think, as a team, we don't have the heart to do it on a nightly basis. The reason for that, is because the Hawks are A SOFT TEAM . . from JJ to Smoove, all the way down to the end of the bench. So we have to either get a great defensive effort or a great offensive effort from 2 or more players a night.

Execution on both ends is the key. Not running.

[coachx]

Having team strength in the areas of defense and rebounding, while the main weakness is lack of half court offensive effeciency is exactly why we should be running.

Am I my missing something ?

The reason we won our 2 games is b/c we pushed the tempo. In order to push the temppo you have to rebound missed shots and play defense to force mossed shots.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Having team strength in the areas of defense and rebounding, while the main weakness is lack of half court offensive effeciency is exactly why we should be running.

Am I my missing something ?

The reason we won our 2 games is b/c we pushed the tempo. In order to push the temppo you have to rebound missed shots and play defense to force mossed shots.

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Coach . . look at those two wins again.

It's not like pushing the tempo won both of those games though. I was at the Dallas game. And while the Hawks did play a little faster ( mainly because Dallas was jacking up a lot of quick shots ), the reason why we won was because of outstanding defense in the 1/2 court, and good execution on the offensive end. And it was the rebounding of both Shelden and Smith that were huge in that game. It had nothing to do with pushing the tempo, especially when the game was on the line in the 4th quarter.

For the most part, we held Dallas to one shot and done. Smoove and JJ did an outstanding job in defending Dirk that game.

When you play fast, you have to also be under control. You can't be throwing the ball all over the place, or running into people drawing offensive fouls, just for the sake of playing fast. And if the PG isn't bringing the ball up when playing fast, we're never under control. If we're not going to do it "the right way", we don't need to be doing it at all, because it becomes counterproductive.

And if we're to play fast, we have to have people out on the floor that can shoot the basketball. JJ is a shooter. Marvin is a shooter. Lue is a shooter. Salim is a shooter. That's pretty much it.

And JJ is off. Lue is WAY off. And Salim can't even get into the game for the most part. The Hawks are at their best offensively, when they're properly sharing the ball in the 1/2 court offense . . not when they're running.

I don't think playing fast has helped Josh Smith AT ALL. It's hurt his game. The same may go for JJ.

The vast majority of the teams in this league that make the playoffs, make it because they can DEFEND and REBOUND the basketball. Not because they make a commitment to running.

I'd much rather play like Detroit, than Phoenix. Detroit can adjust their style, and play any way they want to.

[AtLaS]

This doesn't mean we shouldn't run, it just means we need to rebound better. Obviously we need to rebound much better to avoid 2nd chances, but this doesn't mean we don't need to run on offense. I, for one, do NOT want to see us walking it up the court because we know what happens then.

I can understand not trying to push it on a made bucket when the defense is all the way back, because we can't have an advantage there. But, if given the opportunity we need to run absolutely as much as possible, and that DOES come as a result of better rebounding.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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This doesn't mean we shouldn't run, it just means we need to rebound better. Obviously we need to rebound much better to avoid 2nd chances, but this doesn't mean we don't need to run on offense. I, for one, do NOT want to see us walking it up the court because we know what happens then.

I can understand not trying to push it on a made bucket when the defense is all the way back, because we can't have an advantage there. But, if given the opportunity we need to run absolutely as much as possible, and that DOES come as a result of better rebounding.

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So in the 2 games that we won, what was the main element that led to victory? Running and scoring fast, or playing defense and rebounding?

Like I said . . I'm not against running. But if we're going to try to run every time a guy misses a basket, by passing to one of the forwards instead of giving it to the guards, then the running is pretty much useless.

Chill and Smoove may be our best to finishers on the break, yet, they're the main guys trying to run the break . . only to get stuck out on no-man's land once they get into the frontcourt. LOL . . then we have to set up and run the 1/2 court offense anyway.

I think Woody wants us to "play faster", not necessarily run. There is a difference in that. But even with "playing faster", the PG needs the ball, not the forwards. This "commitment to run or play faster", is actually doing us more harm right now, than good.

It'll only be good when we actually start to do it RIGHT.

[Dexmethylphenidate]

How about we play better defense, get defensive boards, and run more on offense. Besides, 6 games is not a good enough sample size.

[AnnArborHawk]

I agree, let's abandon this philosophy and slow it down for 6 games. If that doesn't work, we can always go back. It might be cool to try a new offensive system every 6 games. Heck, let's try a new coach every 6 games, and whoever had the best 6 games at the All Star break gets to coach the team the rest of the year. I feel bad for whoever gets one of the Western Conference road trips.

[AtLaS]

You still haven't realized what I'm saying. OF COURSE we need to rebound and play better D, there is no question about that. My point is that our halfcourt offense is downright abhorrent. There is no reason AT ALL to abandon an uptempo scheme.

Again, I'm not saying push the ball at all costs, but do NOT abandon it like you are trying to say.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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You still haven't realized what I'm saying. OF COURSE we need to rebound and play better D, there is no question about that. My point is that our halfcourt offense is downright abhorrent. There is no reason AT ALL to abandon an uptempo scheme.

Again, I'm not saying push the ball at all costs, but do NOT abandon it like you are trying to say.

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I understand perfectly what you're saying. What I'm saying is that playing uptempo isn't the reason why we're going to win games. We have to run in spots. When we're only getting like 10 - 15 fast break points a game, it's not like we have some potent running game that's workiing. If anything, trying to play faster is increasing the turnovers and the inefficiency of this team.

To me, it has never been about the offense. It's always been about the defense, especially the defense and rebounding of the frontline.

Smith gets most of his points in the half court offense. Marvin gets almost all of his points in the half court offense. So does JJ. So where does running give us this great advantage? . . or even a decent one? It doesn't.

We were supposed to run . . AND . . shoot more three's this season. LOL . . we can't do either one of those things well right now.

What we're doing, is like the Falcons did when they tried to instill the West Coast offense with Vick at the helm. Yeah, it might be in his best interest, and the team's best interest for him to learn that offense. LOL . . but if he still has trouble completing passes, you end up hurting the overall production of the team.

We're on the same page Atlas. But I would rather for this team to run less, in order to be under more control. That doesn't mean walk the ball up the floor. But it does mean getting the ball in the right people's hands, in the right places on the court.

[Diesel]

I think you make some good points about REBOUNDING.. BUT BUT BUT...

you have to look at the nature of those games. IN those Losses, we were not trying to run every possession. In fact, our team had broken down into the bunch of individual that they are and we started putting up long shots. I guarantee that if you compare the FG% with those rebound numbers, you will find that we shot lousy in those situations. Those one shots lead to easy rebounds when nobody is playing inside.

The other problem with your take is that you don't consider personnel. I think most of our team is built to run. However, I don't think our coach can teach it. Running requires discipline.. and if it's not defense, Woody can't demand discipline... especially not the discipline of an up-tempo team.

We have found that JJ and JSmoove and Lue are too undisciplined right now. Marvin and CHillz would work beautifully because they have a desire to move without the ball and to actually work for scores. That's at the root of up-tempo... The other two factors are conditioning and rebounding. I think Horf can be that rebounder... and I know we're conditioned. So it gets back to discipline and teaching.. I think Woody has confused getting the ball up the court in a hurry with uptempo... That's far too scatter brained.. You have to master, filling lanes, outlet passes, and overall trust...

We lack that. Because we have not been coached to do that!

[Lawstudent101]

Only thing we need to abandon is Woody Woody he's no goody

[Packfill]

What this team needs more than anything right now are two things: (1) Good coaching and (2) good point guard play. The Hawks currently have neither.

[TroyMcClure]

Will we ever "currently" have both?

[Packfill]

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Will we ever "currently" have both?

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Probably not until the team gets a GM that considers those things important. His history, both in Atlanta and Memphis, suggests that he does not.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I think you make some good points about REBOUNDING.. BUT BUT BUT...

you have to look at the nature of those games. IN those Losses, we were not trying to run every possession. In fact, our team had broken down into the bunch of individual that they are and we started putting up long shots. I guarantee that if you compare the FG% with those rebound numbers, you will find that we shot lousy in those situations. Those one shots lead to easy rebounds when nobody is playing inside.

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Oh the bad shooting definitely is a factor in the rebounding disparity. But you can't ignore the 2nd chance points that we've given up in those games either. I think the 2nd chance points in the Washington game was in favor of the Wiz 23 - 6. Against Jersey, I think that number was 12 - 4 in favor of Jersey.

We held both Jersey and Washington to around 43% shooting, while we shot around 39%. Defensively, we played well enough to win both games. But because we didn't execute on offense, and because we got killed on the boards, we lost both games.

Those one shots lead to easy rebounds when nobody is playing inside. And that's exactly right by you. That's a characteristic of teams that try to play fast. It's the reason why a great uptempo team like Phoenix will tend to let you back into a game, if they go through just a 2 - 3 minute cold spell. If you miss that shot, and no one is there to rebound the ball, you've basically wasted a possession. If you make the shot, all is well.

The same elements that we were there to beat Phoenix and Dallas, were the same reasons why we lost against Jersey and Washington. Even if we didn't play fast the entire game, when we did try to play fast, we weren't efficient in doing so.

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The other problem with your take is that you don't consider personnel. I think most of our team is built to run. However, I don't think our coach can teach it. Running requires discipline.. and if it's not defense, Woody can't demand discipline... especially not the discipline of an up-tempo team.

We have found that JJ and JSmoove and Lue are too undisciplined right now

. Marvin and CHillz would work beautifully because they have a desire to move without the ball and to actually work for scores. That's at the root of up-tempo... The other two factors are conditioning and rebounding. I think Horf can be that rebounder... and I know we're conditioned. So it gets back to discipline and teaching.. I think Woody has confused getting the ball up the court in a hurry with uptempo... That's far too scatter brained.. You have to master, filling lanes, outlet passes, and overall trust...

We lack that. Because we have not been coached to do that!

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I agree. So if Woody can't properly teach it, and the players aren't disiplined enough to run the way they should, we should pretty much stop it altogether. The exception to the rule should be when we get a stop on the defensive end AND if we have the right people with the ball when starting the push upcourt.

So do you suggest that we not run when JJ and Smoove are out on the court, but run with a group like Law - Salim - Chill - Marvin ( at the 4 ) - Horford? Could that group be an efficient running team?

What we're doing here, is like Nellie out in Golden St. trying to teach his team how to be a lockdown defensive ballclub. He obviously can't teach it properly, because his teams have never been good or even average defensive ballclubs.

If we're not stressing to get the rock in Law's hands to start the push upcourt, I just think that we shouldn't even be trying to play uptempo at all. No good fast break or uptempo team has their SF or PF's leading the break or pushing the ball themselves.

Watch the Charlotte game tonight. If we give up more than 15 2nd chance points, we'll probably lose tonight. Defense and rebounding win games. We don't need any below average rebounding games from Smoove or Marvin tonight.

[Diesel]

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Those one shots lead to easy rebounds when nobody is playing inside.

And that's exactly right by you. That's a characteristic of teams that try to play fast. It's the reason why a great uptempo team like Phoenix will tend to let you back into a game, if they go through just a 2 - 3 minute cold spell. If you miss that shot, and no one is there to rebound the ball, you've basically wasted a possession. If you make the shot, all is well.

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I think you have to realize that there are different types of uptempo teams. Phoenix is only one type. Their uptempo is based on putting up a shot early in the shot clock. That's not the type of up-tempo I think we should be. I think we should be an up-tempo that's determined to run on every missed shot and bring the ball up quickly on every made one and catch the defense out of position. I also think that we should be the type to try scoring off the break or through the cutter rather than from the three (like Phoenix and Dallas). We don't have the shooters to be a Phoenix type up-tempo team. However, we have the wings to be a devastating uptempo team.. Especially if Smoove learns and accepts to move without the ball.

Right now, we're a bunch of guys standing on the perimeter in a half court set either watching one guy work... or putting our hands out calling for the ball. And on rare occasions, you'd see two of us working and even rarer occassions, 3 but hardly is there ever anything beyond a screen and roll.

This team will not win with halfcourt basketball. We're too small and we don't shoot so well. Our gift is our ability to run and our athletic wings. Right now, we're like watching a bunch of 7 year olds at the Y...