Could the Camby signing be in prep for a S&T?

[thescout5]

The fact other teams aren't going after Smoove even has a restricted free agent tells the Hawk's something already. Teams are going after other players that have a more sound game and are consistent.

[thescout5]

Kaman is 26 yrs old think he has reached his peak? 12.7 rebounds, over 15 points a game and blocked 2.7 shots a game. Or lets play small ball and never get a legit big and hope year after year the Hawk's can compete with bigger teams.

[Zone034life]

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Keep Smoove and continue to play small ball or take a chance on getting one of the few big men that could be available.

So we should get big just because a big might be available? Even if it makes this team less talented and dynamic. I'm glad your name isn't Rick Sund.

Tell me what you have seen in Chris Kaman throughout his career that suggests he is more than an above average Center in this league. In fact most Centers today are only above average and have problems with the Smoove/Horford combo. Of course they have trouble with Yao and Howard. The entire league has trouble with them also.

Are you just going by Kamans injury shortened stats without Brand or have you followed Kamans career and feel he is as good or a better prospect than Smoove?

[Plainview1981]

The Hawks should ship off Marvin instead.

Camby is a better rebounding version of Theo Ratliff that is all. If his defense was all that and a bag of chips Denvers defense wouldn't be the worst in the league.

[Kimsey]

Why the hell would L.A. give up their relatively young C for a sign and trade?

They have their immediate PF for now and 4 million to spend and their exceptions.

Atl will not sign and trade for a 35 year old Camby.

This leaves Josh for us exclusively. I predict he will sign for 5 years to 50 to 55 mill.

C - Kaman

PF - Camby

SF - Thornton

SG - Mobley/Gordon (Gordon will overtake him sooner than later)

PG - B. Diddy

I'm 28 and never had a "second favorite team" but I think the Clips are mine. I think Thornton compliments his front court mates well.

[DrReality]

Trading Daman away given Camby's age is crazy. He doesn't have that many years left and Kaman is a young stud.

[Antmillennium]

I swear, some people on this board come up with the weakest, dumbest reasons for trading Josh Smith. The last time I checked, Kaman hasn't exactly carried the Clippers to greatness. What makes you think that he'll come to the Hawks and all of a suddden set the league on fire??? It seems that a lot of you guys on this board are just enamored with positions and measurables instead of actually looking at players and their games. Unless this young Center's name is Dwight Howard, you don't trade Josh Smith for him. You don't trade away good players with the potential to be special for above average players with the potential to be a little bit better than above average just because they happen to play the Center position. That would be like an NFL team with a top pick in the draft passing on a player with the potential to be special and drafting a decent player just because he fills a need position. You don't do that. You get the players that you feel have the potential to be special first, and then you worry about the role players later.

[Duff_Man]

My favorite were all the trades that were proposed on this board for Camby...they wanted to sell the farm to get him. All it took was a 2nd rounder.

[jhay610]

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Like I said they

could easily trade

Marvin and ZaZa and get that cap space.

No they can't. The only teams that could absorb those contracts (i.e., are under the cap) are the Clippers and Grizz, and the Grizz have no motive to pick up an aging player with a 10 mil. price tag.

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In fact it would have been smarter because they could have gotten good draft picks for Marvin and ZaZa instead of just swapping in the second round.

No they couldn't. First, see above. The only teams that could take on this salary are the Clips and Grizz, and they aren't giving up picks for those players. They already have Al Thorton/Rudy Gay. Zaza is worth a 2nd rounder maybe, but he expires next year so why would you give up a pick for him if you aren't sure of having his services for more than a year. The incentive for Denver is not the option to switch 2nd round picks in 2010, its the salary dump. This means that they don't have to pay 13 mil or whatever it was in luxury tax and they get a slice of the league revenue.

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Camby at 10mil makes more of an impact than ZaZa at 4mil anyday. This trades get you closer to being more of a factor in the east.

The whole point of the trade for Denver is to get under the luxury tax. They are basically ceding the fact that the Melo-AI-Camby core isn't working and they are trying to start over. It makes no sense for Denver to take back salary and then try to deal with the headache of trying to find a team who is (a) under the cap and (b) a willing trade partner. You say things like "it would have been smarter to do it this way because they could've gotten picks" or "they could take on Speedy and then just release him" as if any idiot with a necktie could run an NBA franchise. It's not that easy.

To your other point about Smoove/Kaman. I agree that we should not trade one of the most dynamic young talents in the game, a guy with sky-is-the-limit potential and who is already a game-changing shot blocker, for a guy that has already seemed to have peaked and is reliably inconsistent just on the basis of getting a more traditional lineup. I would much prefer having a matchup problem than a talent problem.

That's why Horf needs to work on his faceup game so that he can punish teams with big, slow 5's on the offensive end with his quickness, because he will most certainly be taking the worst of it from a size perspective on defense.

[Admin]

I don't know if this was directed at me or not but let me set the record straight.

I do not WANT to trade Smith for Kaman, Biedrins, etc.

However, if the alternative is losing him for nothing then I would MUCH rather have someone with some value. In keeping with that idea, if the guy plays a position which is currently filled by someone playing out of position then that's an added bonus.

[crimedog]

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I don't know if this was directed at me or not but let me set the record straight.

I do not WANT to trade Smith for Kaman, Biedrins, etc.

However, if the alternative is losing him for nothing then I would MUCH rather have someone with some value. In keeping with that idea, if the guy plays a position which is currently filled by someone playing out of position then that's an added bonus.

You are doing what Sund should be doing and making sure our bases are covered. That being said, at this point the risk of losing him for nothing is very low. My other question is whether we can say for a fact that Horford is playing out of position as he hasn't shown much on offense and he has as much trouble with the very quick PF's like Bosh/Jamison as he does with the hulking C's... I think he's just a rookie and can play either position.

[Admin]

I hope that the risk is low but there is still a risk that he signs (or threatens to sign) the qualifying offer and then we could very easily lose him for nothing and to me that is not an option.

I hope that he is back next year, I really do ... but I won't risk losing him for nothing just because the risk appears to be low.

Horford did a hell of a job at the 5 as a rookie but he is absolutely playing out of position and I worry what type of added wear and tear he will get by constantly going up against guys who are bigger than he is over the long term. I think that Woody identified it pretty clearly when he talked about Smith having done a good job of holding down the 4 even though really isn't a big and I really don't think the long term plan for the team is to have a 4-5 of Smith and Horford. I really think that they will try and get a natural center to play next to Al.

We also need to consider that Sund (and Woody) might not want us to be a full court team primarily and would like for us to be more traditional since this is no longer BKs team.

[Zone034life]

Can you use the MLE to trade for a player? If so then ZaZa 4mil could be traded for a second round pick. Marvin's 5.6 could be traded for a first round pick. You keep mentioning cap space like I said trade them together. If you had read all my post you would see I clearly said trade them seperately.

All this talk of the salary cap is overrated because if a team really wants a player they can make it happen. Just like the sixers made it happen to get Brand. Some of you are very short sided. Hasn't sports taught you that anything is possible. Brand to the Sixers, Gasol to the Lakers, Shaq to the Suns and people still want to bring up the cap like teams don't have people they pay to make sure whatever they want to get done can.

[ATLien_]

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That would be like an NFL team with a top pick in the draft passing on a player with the potential to be special and drafting a decent player just because he fills a need position. You don't do that. You get the players that you feel have the potential to be special first, and then you worry about the role players later.

Alex Trebek: I need you answer ATLien_

ATLien_: Who is Matt Ryan Alex?

Alex Trebek: Correct!

ATLien_: And this is why the Falcons are perennial losers. It all starts on the lines Alex. Dorsey where are you.

[crimedog]

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I

Horford did a hell of a job at the 5 as a rookie but he is absolutely playing out of position and I worry what type of added wear and tear he will get by constantly going up against guys who are bigger than he is over the long term. I think that Woody identified it pretty clearly when he talked about Smith having done a good job of holding down the 4 even though really isn't a big and I really don't think the long term plan for the team is to have a 4-5 of Smith and Horford. I really think that they will try and get a natural center to play next to Al.

So you think we should dilute our talent so we can be more conventional to a) appease one of the least successful coaches in the history of the league and b) move Horford to PF so instead of trying to keep guys like Dwight Howard who weigh 10 lbs more than him out of the post he has to chase guys like Antwan Jamison, KG, or Chris Bosh around?

[Admin]

I don't think we should but I think that we might. I don't think it's just about appeasing Woody or Sund either. History has shown that teams that are more traditionally built win championships. When, if ever, has a running team won a championship? Honestly I think that if Smoove would commit to being a 4 and playing in and around the paint instead of drifting out to the 3pt line we would be fine, but at this point that's a big if.

[Iman]

It's kinda weird, I think we'd be a better team if we traded Smoove, Speedy for Kaman and a 1st but I'd be disappointed if we did it. I like watching Smoove and enjoy thinking about what would happen if his shooting and decision making improved. More likely is that his bb IQ and shooting improves but his athleticism regresses as he ages.

It probably doesn't matter since I doubt a proper deal ever comes up since we slightly overvalue Smoove due to the hometown thing.

I thought JB was serious at first. I guess we need to only consider Smoove for Dalembert or Greg Oden to keep him happy. Hmm, maybe a trade with Portland with Smoove for Oden or Aldridge might could be worked out as our teams progress the next year or two.

[crimedog]

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I don't think we should but I think that we might. I don't think it's just about appeasing Woody or Sund either. History has shown that teams that are more traditionally built win championships. When, if ever, has a running team won a championship? Honestly I think that if Smoove would commit to being a 4 and playing in and around the paint instead of drifting out to the 3pt line we would be fine, but at this point that's a big if.

Two things.

Traditionally built teams don't win championships. Teams with more talent do. The Lakers (Shaq, Magic), Celtics (Bird, Russell), Spurs (Duncan), Bulls (MJ), Rockets (Hakeem), and Sixers (Doc/Moses) won championships because they all had at least one of the 15 greatest players of all time on their team. Neither Pistons team was more "traditionally" built than the one we have, Sheed was a deep shooter and Big Ben doesn't play offense and neither one of them was what you'd consider a center. Similar to Laimbeer and Rodman on the bad boys. The Blazers were Walton and a bunch of little guys. Teams that win have the best players, period. Kaman doesn't make us any closer to a championship team than Smith because he isn't dominant and doesn't have the chance to be, he is a player who has had an injury shortened season of being better than average at his position.

Pt. 2. As far as Smith taking too many jumpers, true enough but I'm sure you've watched enough Hawks games to know that many of our halfcourt sets have him flanking JJ on the left as the recipient of the kickout when JJ is working up top. That is a design issue, as is the fact that when Chil is in the game (half an hour) HE has to set up down low because he doesn't take jumpers any more, when you have a wing down low, a big has to be outside and since Smith can take people off the dribble we move him out. He takes more shots and scores more inside than anyone else on our team though, he does it more efficiently than Al who is a "true" inside player. I'd like to see better shot selection from him but you know what else I'd like to see? A halfcourt set where our PF was stationed on the baseline, or you know what else? A wing who played off the ball and could nail the 3.

There is a reason Woody doesn't yell at him to get inside, you can't have 3 guys crowding the basket. What am I missing here?

[AHF]

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When, if ever, has a running team won a championship?

See Boston Celtics in their glory era. They started as an all offense team when Red took over and over a few years added additional talent and improved their D without ever giving up their revolutionary fast break offense.

[crimedog]

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When, if ever, has a running team won a championship?

See Boston Celtics in their glory era. They started as an all offense team when Red took over and over a few years added additional talent and improved their D without ever giving up their revolutionary fast break offense.

Hell, make a list of the greatest transition players of all time:

Jordan

Magic

Bird

Doc J

Unseld/Walt/Wilt/Russell (the 4 greatest outlet passers ever)

Great transition players win titles apparently.