What would a pure PG do for our offense?

[Diesel]

I know that one of the main things about us is that we don't have a "Pure PG"....

I was watching Minny vs. Memphis last night. Strangely enough... and I started thinking about PGs watching Foye. He's a bit of a mix... I could really see him being like Devin Harris but he's not so big.

Anyway, I started to think If we added a real PG to our mix... how would it affect our team.

For instance,

Philly will trade Andre Miller before the deadline. His value is slipping.

I was thinking: Speedy, Mo, and Flip for Miller.

What that would do to our starting 5 is probably put Bibs at the OG and Joe at the Sf with Miller running the show. You can have a rotation of Smoove, Marvin, Horf, and Zaza in the front court.

The question is:

Would a pure PG make us better. I think Miller is one of the purest PGs in the game. He has excelled when he plays with shooters (see Cleveland)... We would automatically move from Iso Joe because Miller is more of a play maker than Bibs or Joe. Miller could get the ball to people like Smoove and Horf in their spots.

However, with all those benefits... would we be taking a loss moving away from a system where JJ has the ball in his hands most of the time??

I was watching last night and JJ was strongly tripled... and Bibby was top of the key (maybe about a step or two behind the key) and Joe threw the ball to Bibs and Bibs nailed the shot. It was a great stand up moment...

I'm just wondering can we live on that for the next 4-5 years.... Will Bibby's shooting hold up or should we look to get a pure PG who could either help develop or determine that we need change with our other players?

What does Hawksquawk think?

[diamond_dave]

interesting, but I don't see Bibby guarding any twos in this league.

Also as much as I dislike Flip's game (did you see the play last night as time was expiring when Bibby was ALONE at the three point line and he tried to beat a double team off the dribble), I would like to keep Mo. He's not great, but he's solid off the bench.

Edited December 30, 2008 by diamond_dave

[Vol4ever]

I know that one of the main things about us is that we don't have a "Pure PG"....

I was watching Minny vs. Memphis last night. Strangely enough... and I started thinking about PGs watching Foye. He's a bit of a mix... I could really see him being like Devin Harris but he's not so big.

Anyway, I started to think If we added a real PG to our mix... how would it affect our team.

For instance,

Philly will trade Andre Miller before the deadline. His value is slipping.

I was thinking: Speedy, Mo, and Flip for Miller.

What that would do to our starting 5 is probably put Bibs at the OG and Joe at the Sf with Miller running the show. You can have a rotation of Smoove, Marvin, Horf, and Zaza in the front court.

The question is:

Would a pure PG make us better. I think Miller is one of the purest PGs in the game. He has excelled when he plays with shooters (see Cleveland)... We would automatically move from Iso Joe because Miller is more of a play maker than Bibs or Joe. Miller could get the ball to people like Smoove and Horf in their spots.

However, with all those benefits... would we be taking a loss moving away from a system where JJ has the ball in his hands most of the time??

I was watching last night and JJ was strongly tripled... and Bibby was top of the key (maybe about a step or two behind the key) and Joe threw the ball to Bibs and Bibs nailed the shot. It was a great stand up moment...

I'm just wondering can we live on that for the next 4-5 years.... Will Bibby's shooting hold up or should we look to get a pure PG who could either help develop or determine that we need change with our other players?

What does Hawksquawk think?

Well I think 20 pts and 9 assist were pretty good last night from Bibby. I think our backcourt works pretty well including Flip off the bench. Why mess with something when it works???

Now we need a big in the worst way. Joe Smith, Brad Miller, Chris Wilcox come to mind and NO I don't care for Dally.

[Diesel]

Well I think 20 pts and 9 assist were pretty good last night from Bibby. I think our backcourt works pretty well including Flip off the bench. Why mess with something when it works???

Now we need a big in the worst way. Joe Smith, Brad Miller, Chris Wilcox come to mind and NO I don't care for Dally.

Vol you know I have to pick on you for your logic here. You just said Why mess with something when it works??... however, in light of us winning and beating teams soundly, you want to mess with our bigs?

My point is the same as what you're trying to say. Just because it's working now doesn't mean that it's not flawed. We're good. We're probably up with the good teams, but are we an elite team? Can we play with the Lakers and the Celtics? I don't have one bit of trust in Flip or in the win by the three motif that we play. I would rather us have some solid foundation and let the three be a weapon instead of our foundation.

I'm not suggesting that we drop everything and trade for Miller. However, I am saying that we should consider thinking about our team with a true PG and thinking about our team with a real big who can play defense.

[HawkItus]

I don't see the point of this? Bibby is 5th in the league in assist to turnover ratio. He is a real PG.

[Diesel]

I don't see the point of this? Bibby is 5th in the league in assist to turnover ratio. He is a real PG.

Does Bibby run the offense?

Does Bibby get everybody involved?

Have we moved away from ISOJOE?

[PlayaPat420]

Maybe it's because i'm not a big Andre Miller fan but i don't think he fits our team, at all. His offense is limited, especially perimeter-wise, and he himself does a lot of dribbling.

I also feel that Bibby does what our offense ask him too. It isn't complicated but he does run our high post screening plays well and Joe iso-ing IS the other major part of the offense.

Edited December 30, 2008 by PlayaPat420

[Diesel]

Maybe it's because i'm not a big Andre Miller fan but i don't think he fits our team, at all. His offense is limited, especially perimeter-wise, and he himself does a lot of dribbling.

I also feel that Bibby does what our offense ask him too. It isn't complicated but he does run our high post screening plays well and Joe iso-ing IS the other major part of the offense.

Right now, what we do is let JJ hold the ball and find an open man or Bibby who can find an open man or shoot the shot. Like you say it isn't complicated. However, it isn't practical either. It's just been good so far. When teams keep one on one coverage on JJ and kill the passing lanes, you will see the flaws in our offense. Namely, we don't have an efficient scorer. Usually this style of offense works when you can go to a motion offense or you have a post player who can score effectively. Well, we have neither. I'm not suggesting that Miller is the answer.. I just grabbed a guy that I'm sure will be available. I just think that maybe we need to consider getting a "pure" PG who can develop Horf, Smoove, and Marv so that we can have either that Motion or a guy who can get points efficiently.

[HawkItus]

Does Bibby run the offense?

Does Bibby get everybody involved?

Have we moved away from ISOJOE?

Well, in my opinion if you're looking for a traditional PG, then your looking at the wrong player. JJ is our traditional PG. He leads the team in assist. Get's others involved. And the ISO joe is our version of the Andre Miller at the top of the key.

[Atlsportfanz]

I've been more and more impressed by the amount of offensive sets that I've seen lately. (That backpick that freed Josh up for the lob from Bibby was beautiful.)

But every team in crunch time, the plays are virtually the same. Get the ball to your best player, hopefully in a position where he can make a play. ISOJOE, KG on the block, Mello face up on the wing, Lebron top of the Key, Duncan on the block, Nash-Amare pick and roll.

It's not just a Hawks thing.

As said earlier, Bibby couldn't defend many 2's. At least not the one's that like to attack the rim or play in the post. Also, Miller would not really help our floor spacing because he doesn't shoot the 3 at all! Horford, ZaZa, Josh get a lot of cheap rebounds and one on one opportunities because Marvin, Joe, and Bibby keep defenders out of the paint.

[Diesel]

Maybe it's because i'm not a big Andre Miller fan but i don't think he fits our team, at all. His offense is limited, especially perimeter-wise, and he himself does a lot of dribbling.

I also feel that Bibby does what our offense ask him too. It isn't complicated but he does run our high post screening plays well and Joe iso-ing IS the other major part of the offense.

In looking over the History of the NBA.. did anybody ever wonder why nobody has ever tried a team with 4 SGs and a C? What would be wrong with 4 Medium sized SGs and one C to rebound?

Just for grins... what would be the problem with having:

Joe Johnson, Jason Kapono, Mike Miller, Raja Bell, Emeka Okafor..

[tonegully]

Right now, what we do is let JJ hold the ball and find an open man or Bibby who can find an open man or shoot the shot. Like you say it isn't complicated. However, it isn't practical either. It's just been good so far. When teams keep one on one coverage on JJ and kill the passing lanes, you will see the flaws in our offense. Namely, we don't have an efficient scorer. Usually this style of offense works when you can go to a motion offense or you have a post player who can score effectively. Well, we have neither. I'm not suggesting that Miller is the answer.. I just grabbed a guy that I'm sure will be available. I just think that maybe we need to consider getting a "pure" PG who can develop Horf, Smoove, and Marv so that we can have either that Motion or a guy who can get points efficiently.

Do you really think our offense would change with another PG? I dont think so. Our offense starts at the coach. Woody is not worried about developing anyone. When he has a lottery pick PG on the bench. If he was worried about developing anyone, he would be working with Law to become a more of a PG than a shoot first guard that he is.

Andre Miller has not impressed me at all this year. He defense is about the same as Bibby. He is not worth his paycheck he is getting this year.

I mean trading for a guard is out of the question with the way Bibby is playing right now. I didnt expect Bibby to play this well but like you said, Its a contract year.

[Diesel]

Well, in my opinion if you're looking for a traditional PG, then your looking at the wrong player. JJ is our traditional PG. He leads the team in assist. Get's others involved. And the ISO joe is our version of the Andre Miller at the top of the key.

There's an old true basketball adage that arose from Jordan Rules... YOu don't want your best player/scorer to be your primary ball handler. When the Bulls were coached by Doug Collins, he tried to put Jordan as PG and it failed misraebly. The reason being is that a scorer has to have the abillity to work without the ball. You notice that even in LAL, Kobe is not the primary ball handler... It goes without saying that for that team to work, you need a PG. Either Joe will be the PG or he will be the scorer but it's too much for him to be both. That's why teams fail with Iverson running the point. It's not because these guys can't play PG, hell MJ averaged about 9 apg while he was playing PG.. it's just that the job of making the offense better cannot be done as efficiently as if there were a distributor on the team.

[Diesel]

Do you really think our offense would change with another PG? I dont think so. Our offense starts at the coach. Woody is not worried about developing anyone.

Offense doesn't start with the coach. Offense starts with the pieces you have. If you doubt, try explaining why we're better on offense now than we have ever been? The move for Bibby was the right move. I believe that Bibby goes with Joe like a hand and a glove because Joe needs a shooter who can free him up. BUT that philosophy IMO is part of the problem. I don't think Joe should be the focus of the ball handling. It's like when we had JT here trying to play PG. It doesn't work that way. Either you're a distributor or you're a scorer but you can't be both at the same time. What we're doing is fashioning Joe (with players) to be both... the problem is that even though he's scoring it will eventually diminish his ability as a scorer. Moreover, we stop developing other players. A while back, SA's offense ran through Tim Duncan. However, then they got Tony Parker and now everybody is involved on offense. Duncan is not less potent, but he's more specialized.. however, their offense is more potent.

[HawkItus]

There's an old true basketball adage that arose from Jordan Rules... YOu don't want your best player/scorer to be your primary ball handler. When the Bulls were coached by Doug Collins, he tried to put Jordan as PG and it failed misraebly. The reason being is that a scorer has to have the abillity to work without the ball. You notice that even in LAL, Kobe is not the primary ball handler... It goes without saying that for that team to work, you need a PG. Either Joe will be the PG or he will be the scorer but it's too much for him to be both. That's why teams fail with Iverson running the point. It's not because these guys can't play PG, hell MJ averaged about 9 apg while he was playing PG.. it's just that the job of making the offense better cannot be done as efficiently as if there were a distributor on the team.

That's a horrible basketball idiom. What about the other MJ Magic Johnson, Chris Paul, Zeke, Oscar Robertson, Nash, Stockton need I go on? There are a million and 1 ways to skin a cat, just make sure you choose the best method for your cat.

[PlayaPat420]

In looking over the History of the NBA.. did anybody ever wonder why nobody has ever tried a team with 4 SGs and a C? What would be wrong with 4 Medium sized SGs and one C to rebound?

Just for grins... what would be the problem with having:

Joe Johnson, Jason Kapono, Mike Miller, Raja Bell, Emeka Okafor..

i'm not much of a traditionalist when it comes to playing positions but I do feel PGs are the most important part of a team. That being said, the only major problems i see with a 4 SG line-up would 1st be defense and 2nd no one would actually set another player up, there would just be a lot of shooting going on. also, normally shooting guards don't test the interior much (Kobe and D Wade being a few of the exceptions), therefore all shots would be contested (in my opinion) which makes the team unsuccessful in the longhaul. the line-up above probably would be nice offensively but defensively awful.

[macdaddy]

interesting, but I don't see Bibby guarding any twos in this league.

Also as much as I dislike Flip's game (did you see the play last night as time was expiring when Bibby was ALONE at the three point line and he tried to beat a double team off the dribble), I would like to keep Mo. He's not great, but he's solid off the bench.

Oh yeah I saw that too. And Bibby was alone-alone. I criticize Woody a lot but he's been a lot better about getting Flip out of there when he's spazing out and you can tell it keeps Flip from going crazy.

Right now I think we are winning mainly because of the shooting punch of bibby and JJ. I don't want to mess that up. Plus Bibby does get other guys involved when they move without the ball. When they just stand around he ignores them as he should.

[Diesel]

That's a horrible basketball idiom. What about the other MJ Magic Johnson, Chris Paul, Zeke, Oscar Robertson, Nash, Stockton need I go on? There are a million and 1 ways to skin a cat, just make sure you choose the best method for your cat.

Again..

Were those guys the lead scorers on their teams?

Let's put out the ones that were not:

Stockton... Don't forget Malone.

Magic.... Kareem and Wilkes Early... Worthy later... The only year that it didn't hold true was 86-87 when Magic averaged 23 and 12... after that enter Byron Scott.

Zeke.. First Championship year (AD Adreian Dantley led scoring., The next year, Isiah Thomas did beat out Dumars scoring 18/9. After that it was Joe Dumars Lead scorer...

Steve Nash... Nash has never led the Suns in scoring.

Oscar Robertson has been one of the truly greats to ever play the game...

Chris Paul.. last year, Chris Paul has done it...However, he has only edged D West out by less than 0.6 ppg ... Plus, they didn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Like I'm saying... It's rare for a guy to be able to do both... and those who have are far better distributors than Joe Johnson could be.

[HawkItus]

Again..

Were those guys the lead scorers on their teams?

Let's put out the ones that were not:

Stockton... Don't forget Malone.

Magic.... Kareem and Wilkes Early... Worthy later... The only year that it didn't hold true was 86-87 when Magic averaged 23 and 12... after that enter Byron Scott.

Zeke.. First Championship year (AD Adreian Dantley led scoring., The next year, Isiah Thomas did beat out Dumars scoring 18/9. After that it was Joe Dumars Lead scorer...

Steve Nash... Nash has never led the Suns in scoring.

Oscar Robertson has been one of the truly greats to ever play the game...

Chris Paul.. last year, Chris Paul has done it...However, he has only edged D West out by less than 0.6 ppg ... Plus, they didn't get past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

Like I'm saying... It's rare for a guy to be able to do both... and those who have are far better distributors than Joe Johnson could be.

we differ on our opinions of best player/best scorer/leading scorer. Check most of those players during championship and playoff games. Your best player/scorer doesn't necessarily lead the team in scoring. But, I see your point. It's not a good idea for your leading scorer to also be your leading assist man. I agree with that. But, if you haven't noticed this year we are getting more and more balanced. Woody wants to recreate the Pistons. That's what we are going for.

[Diesel]

we differ on our opinions of best player/best scorer/leading scorer. Check most of those players during championship and playoff games. Your best player/scorer doesn't necessarily lead the team in scoring. But, I see your point. It's not a good idea for your leading scorer to also be your leading assist man. I agree with that. But, if you haven't noticed this year we are getting more and more balanced. Woody wants to recreate the Pistons. That's what we are going for.

Yeah, we may be going for Pistons?? Defensively... But offensively they were lead by PG Chauncey Billups who basically passed to everybody. I think I liked BK's idea of going towards being like Indiana... when they had McKey, Smits, Miller, Davis, Davis, and Jackson... They were long and Athletic too.. but they had a good foundation and could play in the halfcourt with anybody.