Joe's mythical "triple team"

[smithrules]

If you pound the ball long enough, sure, there will be more than

one defender. If it's Josh they are leaving, the simple solution

is, have Josh dive inside for the easy dunk/layup shot.

In the Hawks offensive set they use right now, sooner or later,

someone comes to set a screen, usually whoever is playing center

at the time. Defense then collapses into the paint. Either JJ

passes out to an open 3 shooter or he throws up a prayer

if time is running out.

Whichever happens, there are five defensive players in position to

grab the rebound. It's either hit it or forget it. Great when it

works and Hawks score. Terrible things happen when they don't.

Maybe I'm not looking at what everyone else is, but that's what

I see happening game after game. Does anyone else see this?

Or, am I missing something?

:sad:

I agree alot of whats going on has to do with our sets on offense. plus we keep on trying to get JJ the ball down on the block but he ends up getting the ball in the corner and then hes trapped. now joe does average more assists than bibby so he does hit the open man some. However thats also when alot of his turnovers occur. The do collaspe down as well when we try to post him up. Hes better at top of key like point forward. Also your comment about having smoove cut for the layup seems like something our coaches aren't doing.

[PureGreatness]

Its been a while since joe has been double teamed.

[macdaddy]

That must be right. I can't find any youtube clips of Joe getting double or triple teamed, passing out to Josh who misses a long jumper. I guess it never happens.

[crimedog]

Joe gets double-teamed when he works his way into the paint, but he gets double teamed like any competent player. Smith gets doubled when he drives or posts up, thats why he gets a decent assist total. Marv gets doubled when he drives, he's just got a pretty awful case of tunnel vision on his drives.

Joe has the ball in his hands the most so he gets doubled the most. He doesn't get the "constant double or triple teams every time he crosses half court" that some would have you believe though.

[macdaddy]

Teams are actively scouting us. I'm sure they aren't doubling as much now that Joe is not shooting well and Bibby has been doing well. When Joe catches fire again I'm sure we will see the return of the quick double team. I don't think you can make the case that Joe hasn't been double teamed much over the last couple years. Maybe the last month.

[thecampster]

Teams are actively scouting us. I'm sure they aren't doubling as much now that Joe is not shooting well and Bibby has been doing well. When Joe catches fire again I'm sure we will see the return of the quick double team. I don't think you can make the case that Joe hasn't been double teamed much over the last couple years. Maybe the last month.

Since someone stated "basketball 101", let me throw my 2 cents in. What is happening to Joe is a defensive philosophy and is not a traditional double team. Joe is a strong right handed player and is not as adept driving with his left. He can cross you over, but not drive it on you left handed like alot of guards. It's just a left handed speed thing. So teams are taking the cross over away by d'ing up on his left hand and making him drive right and stack D inside their defenders so he can't go front to the basket and keeps drifting to his strong hand...then the trap comes when he runs out of real estate to his right. Alot of his assists come when the double is late he can pass over the coming doubles hands. But make no mistake...he isn't being Doubled, he's being corner trapped by inviting him to drift to the strong hand.

The problem with drifting to the strong hand is that your body constantly drifts farther from the open floor and you have to pass across your body to get out of the trap. It's a scheme guys and he hasn't overcome it or been coached out of it.

[HawkItus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLpd2q9Pwo

against Portland. Notice the double that forces Joe's retreat back from the paint.

against the Spurs. A few doubles and then they don't double and Joe goes crazy.

against Boston. Notice the big men aren't doubling. Joe goes nuts.

Edited February 23, 2009 by sultanofatl

[thecampster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLpd2q9Pwo

against Portland. Notice the double that forces Joe's retreat back from the paint.

against the Spurs. A few doubles and then they don't double and Joe goes crazy.

against Boston. Notice the big men aren't doubling. Joe goes nuts.

Not a real double team in any of those clips. Closest thing was on a drive in the first clip a wing defender closed the lane...that's not a double team. That's Joe driving strong hand into a different defender (see my previous post).

[HawkItus]

Not a real double team in any of those clips. Closest thing was on a drive in the first clip a wing defender closed the lane...that's not a double team. That's Joe driving strong hand into a different defender (see my previous post).

http://en.mimi.hu/basketball/double_team.html

Those are double teams. The problem is Joe never gives up his dribble so than can complete the double team. I wonder sometimes how many people on this board have truly played basketball. Ha ha. I tell you what Campster. Show me this elusive real double team.

[Peoriabird]

Since someone stated "basketball 101", let me throw my 2 cents in. What is happening to Joe is a defensive philosophy and is not a traditional double team. Joe is a strong right handed player and is not as adept driving with his left. He can cross you over, but not drive it on you left handed like alot of guards. It's just a left handed speed thing. So teams are taking the cross over away by d'ing up on his left hand and making him drive right and stack D inside their defenders so he can't go front to the basket and keeps drifting to his strong hand...then the trap comes when he runs out of real estate to his right. Alot of his assists come when the double is late he can pass over the coming doubles hands. But make no mistake...he isn't being Doubled, he's being corner trapped by inviting him to drift to the strong hand.

The problem with drifting to the strong hand is that your body constantly drifts farther from the open floor and you have to pass across your body to get out of the trap. It's a scheme guys and he hasn't overcome it or been coached out of it.

Excellent post!

[thecampster]

http://en.mimi.hu/basketball/double_team.html

Those are double teams. The problem is Joe never gives up his dribble so than can complete the double team. I wonder sometimes how many people on this board have truly played basketball. Ha ha. I tell you what Campster. Show me this elusive real double team.

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-do-a-Doub...-Drill-23504459

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/971594/lebro...he_double_team/

Jordan getting a real double team. Watch the whole video...about a quarter of the way in they show Michael being Doubled away from the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Kobe doubled up in the corner

and you're right...you make me wonder who here has watched basketball if you call a player dribbling into a second defender who is clearly guarding someone else, a double team. I mean seriously. In that first clip they are playing a freaking Zone. how do you say it's a double team when Portland was in a Zone defense.

Edited February 23, 2009 by thecampster

[HawkItus]

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-do-a-Doub...-Drill-23504459

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/971594/lebro...he_double_team/

Jordan getting a real double team. Watch the whole video...about a quarter of the way in they show Michael being Doubled away from the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Kobe doubled up in the corner

and you're right...you make me wonder who here has watched basketball if you call a player dribbling into a second defender who is clearly guarding someone else, a double team. I mean seriously. In that first clip they are playing a freaking Zone. how do you say it's a double team when Portland was in a Zone defense.

Wow. Okay. Do you even know what a Double Team is? A double team is simply when two players defend one player. A trap is a double team. Those clips you showed were double teams. As were the examples on the clips I showed. If I dribble towards you and you leave your man to defend me, even after I retreat back to the 3 point line, you have double teamed me. My God man it's not that hard.

[EazyRoc]

http://en.mimi.hu/basketball/double_team.html

Those are double teams. The problem is Joe never gives up his dribble so than can complete the double team. I wonder sometimes how many people on this board have truly played basketball. Ha ha. I tell you what Campster. Show me this elusive real double team.

You don't get bonus points for being a smart *ss. Anyways, all of those links are old anyways. I don't know what TroyMcClure was referring to, but he hasn't drawn consistent double teams in the past couple of months (which I was talking about). You pull up some videos and in the first one that wasn't even a double team. Even the casual basketball fans (which I am) knows that is a zone. He comes up to defend Joe because Joe dribbles in his zone. Shame on you, basketball guru.

It is what it is. If you have to pull up videos from a year ago, showing Joe dribbling into the zone, you lose. Teams have figured out a new way to defend Joe that doesn't involve sending another defender whenever he touches the ball.

Edited February 23, 2009 by EazyRoc

[thecampster]

Wow. Okay. Do you even know what a Double Team is? A double team is simply when two players defend one player. A trap is a double team. Those clips you showed were double teams. As were the examples on the clips I showed. If I dribble towards you and you leave your man to defend me, even after I retreat back to the 3 point line, you have double teamed me. My God man it's not that hard.

Ok let me try it this way. Portland was in a 4-1 zone. No one was guarding a man, but only guarding the Man in his zone. in a 4 - 1 zone, the 4 is the 4 corners of the lane, the 1 is the area north of the lane/or the one person guarding the point.

In this setup Joe was acting as Point. The 1 was guarding Joe. When Joe dribbled into the 2 zone, defender 2 collapsed to defend his zone but made a point to allow no one in his zone behind him. He chased Joe out of his zone...defended his zone...This is why Joe retreated as he did....he left the zone and the player left. It's not a double team, it's a zone defense. Now here is where the coaching should have come in. When the 2 defender chased Joe out of the zone, it opened up an opportunity for Josh Smith to duck in behind this defender and cut. Josh never made a move. Not because he was "hanging around the 3 point line"....no it's because the play was designed for Joe to beat the zone. This play shows not only Joe's lack of a left hand but also Woody's lack of coaching. This should have been schemed on how to beat this zone. It can't possibly be the first time portland used it all year.

For starters...in the 4-1 zone the point needs to pick a zone corner....Joe started middle top of the key...he didn't give himself enough room to work. If Joe would have started left top of the key he could have driven right and rolled middle, but no he started middle and his drive right put him outside the lane and into the defender. If he had pulled the defender into the lane by setting up right he could have easily rotated left side and the defender would have been caught in an illegal defense. This is coaching pure and simple. Or if Joe wanted to stay middle right of the lane he could do that too but he needed to be farther right and drive right of the zone 2 defender and therefore given Josh Smith the ability to slip behind the zone causing a 2 on 1 in the low right post. Again this is coaching. The coaching put the onus on Johnson as a scorer, not a playmaker from the point position.

But you're right, I obviously have no F'ing clue what I'm talking about. How about instead we just quote the comment from 8th poster on that video.

TKDCats312 (1 month ago) Show Hide +1 Marked as spam Reply No... I mean... You could even listen to the announcer for this. Roy pushed Johnson over to Aldridge intentionally for the help in defense to maybe get a steal. This was great hustle defense and I'm proud there's finally a superstar shooting guard in the league that actually plays it.

[HawkItus]

You don't get bonus points for being a smart *ss. Anyways, all of those links are old anyways. I don't know what TroyMcClure was referring to, but he hasn't drawn consistent double teams in the past couple of months (which I was talking about). You pull up some videos and in the first one that wasn't even a double team. Even the casual basketball fans (which I am) knows that is a zone. He comes up to defend Joe because Joe dribbles in his zone. Shame on you, basketball guru.

Ok let me try it this way. Portland was in a 4-1 zone. No one was guarding a man, but only guarding the Man in his zone. in a 4 - 1 zone, the 4 is the 4 corners of the lane, the 1 is the area north of the lane/or the one person guarding the point.

In this setup Joe was acting as Point. The 1 was guarding Joe. When Joe dribbled into the 2 zone, defender 2 collapsed to defend his zone but made a point to allow no one in his zone behind him. He chased Joe out of his zone...defended his zone...This is why Joe retreated as he did....he left the zone and the player left. It's not a double team, it's a zone defense. Now here is where the coaching should have come in. When the 2 defender chased Joe out of the zone, it opened up an opportunity for Josh Smith to duck in behind this defender and cut. Josh never made a move. Not because he was "hanging around the 3 point line"....no it's because the play was designed for Joe to beat the zone. This play shows not only Joe's lack of a left hand but also Woody's lack of coaching. This should have been schemed on how to beat this zone. It can't possibly be the first time portland used it all year.

For starters...in the 4-1 zone the point needs to pick a zone corner....Joe started middle top of the key...he didn't give himself enough room to work. If Joe would have started left top of the key he could have driven right and rolled middle, but no he started middle and his drive right put him outside the lane and into the defender. If he had pulled the defender into the lane by setting up right he could have easily rotated left side and the defender would have been caught in an illegal defense. This is coaching pure and simple. Or if Joe wanted to stay middle right of the lane he could do that too but he needed to be farther right and drive right of the zone 2 defender and therefore given Josh Smith the ability to slip behind the zone causing a 2 on 1 in the low right post. Again this is coaching. The coaching put the onus on Johnson as a scorer, not a playmaker from the point position.

But you're right, I obviously have no F'ing clue what I'm talking about. How about instead we just quote the comment from 8th poster on that video.

TKDCats312 (1 month ago) Show Hide +1 Marked as spam Reply No... I mean... You could even listen to the announcer for this. Roy pushed Johnson over to Aldridge intentionally for the help in defense to maybe get a steal. This was great hustle defense and I'm proud there's finally a superstar shooting guard in the league that actually plays it.

So now you don't double team out of a zone? Wow. Okay. haha. I give up. You and your "4-1 zone" haha. Have fun with that.

[Peoriabird]

Ok let me try it this way. Portland was in a 4-1 zone. No one was guarding a man, but only guarding the Man in his zone. in a 4 - 1 zone, the 4 is the 4 corners of the lane, the 1 is the area north of the lane/or the one person guarding the point.

In this setup Joe was acting as Point. The 1 was guarding Joe. When Joe dribbled into the 2 zone, defender 2 collapsed to defend his zone but made a point to allow no one in his zone behind him. He chased Joe out of his zone...defended his zone...This is why Joe retreated as he did....he left the zone and the player left. It's not a double team, it's a zone defense. Now here is where the coaching should have come in. When the 2 defender chased Joe out of the zone, it opened up an opportunity for Josh Smith to duck in behind this defender and cut. Josh never made a move. Not because he was "hanging around the 3 point line"....no it's because the play was designed for Joe to beat the zone. This play shows not only Joe's lack of a left hand but also Woody's lack of coaching. This should have been schemed on how to beat this zone. It can't possibly be the first time portland used it all year.

For starters...in the 4-1 zone the point needs to pick a zone corner....Joe started middle top of the key...he didn't give himself enough room to work. If Joe would have started left top of the key he could have driven right and rolled middle, but no he started middle and his drive right put him outside the lane and into the defender. If he had pulled the defender into the lane by setting up right he could have easily rotated left side and the defender would have been caught in an illegal defense. This is coaching pure and simple. Or if Joe wanted to stay middle right of the lane he could do that too but he needed to be farther right and drive right of the zone 2 defender and therefore given Josh Smith the ability to slip behind the zone causing a 2 on 1 in the low right post. Again this is coaching. The coaching put the onus on Johnson as a scorer, not a playmaker from the point position.

But you're right, I obviously have no F'ing clue what I'm talking about. How about instead we just quote the comment from 8th poster on that video.

TKDCats312 (1 month ago) Show Hide +1 Marked as spam Reply No... I mean... You could even listen to the announcer for this. Roy pushed Johnson over to Aldridge intentionally for the help in defense to maybe get a steal. This was great hustle defense and I'm proud there's finally a superstar shooting guard in the league that actually plays it.

This will no doubt go over all of these "Joe is the greatest" type fan"s heads. This clearly illustrates what goes on with this team on a nightly basis! But you know that other people will constantly get blamed for lack of ball movement with the Hawks Offense. But at least you tried!

[TroyMcClure]

So now you don't double team out of a zone? Wow. Okay. haha. I give up. You and your "4-1 zone" haha. Have fun with that.

You really should give up. You are on a basketball message board and instead of understanding your limited knowledge of the game and learning something, you just keep typing.

TheCampster is right. He went so far as to spell it out for you. But you don't know the game, so his words mean nothing to you. Your loss.

Oh, I've wondered how many people here play or have played, as well. I'm quite sure you haven't. At least for a coach. You sound like this guy from Jersey that I work with. We were talking about when we played football. He said he played defensive back. So did I. So I asked him what was their call on interceptions. Ours was "Oskie". He was like "what"? I had to explain to him the importance of letting your team know that they were now on offense and to block someone on the return. It's a basic thing that flew over his head. Now, either he is lying, or they don't really play football in New Jersey.

If you can't talk about the game with a deep understanding, you shouldn't get into x and o discussions. You make yourself look bad and waste everyone's time.

[HawkItus]

You really should give up. You are on a basketball message board and instead of understanding your limited knowledge of the game and learning something, you just keep typing.

TheCampster is right. He went so far as to spell it out for you. But you don't know the game, so his words mean nothing to you. Your loss.

Oh, I've wondered how many people here play or have played, as well. I'm quite sure you haven't. At least for a coach. You sound like this guy from Jersey that I work with. We were talking about when we played football. He said he played defensive back. So did I. So I asked him what was their call on interceptions. Ours was "Oskie". He was like "what"? I had to explain to him the importance of letting your team know that they were now on offense and to block someone on the return. It's a basic thing that flew over his head. Now, either he is lying, or they don't really play football in New Jersey.

If you can't talk about the game with a deep understanding, you shouldn't get into x and o discussions. You make yourself look bad and waste everyone's time.

Whatever buddy. You find me any coach who says you don't trap/double in a zone. Then find me a reputable almanac or coach who teaches the "4-1 zone" Ha ha. You truly are a cartoon Troy

[thecampster]

Whatever buddy. You find me any coach who says you don't trap/double in a zone. Then find me a reputable almanac or coach who teaches the "4-1 zone" Ha ha. You truly are a cartoon Troy

here is a website that refers to the 4-1 as the 1-2-2 which is probably it's most common name. The 4-1 is a basically dumbed down highschool defense which is what Portland was in. Go back and watch the video.

The 4-1 is used basically to either defend ISO or when you're aren't very familiar with your opponent and want to test the waters before you make adjustments for your rotation. 1-2-2 which is what this site shows is the 4-1 but with the rotations and responsibilities set.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/122zonedefense.html

[thecampster]

here is a website that refers to the 4-1 as the 1-2-2 which is probably it's most common name. The 4-1 is a basically dumbed down highschool defense which is what Portland was in. Go back and watch the video.

The 4-1 is used basically to either defend ISO or when you're aren't very familiar with your opponent and want to test the waters before you make adjustments for your rotation. 1-2-2 which is what this site shows is the 4-1 but with the rotations and responsibilities set.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/122zonedefense.html

OMG I read farther down and the exact play I described earlier is written out here. It's basketball for dummies. Quick someone email this link to Woody.