Joe's mythical "triple team"

[HawkItus]

I familiar with 1-2-2 zone. I've never heard it referred to as the 4-1. Regardless my point was Joe draws the double team. Maybe not so much this year, but he draws it. No movement is our real offensive issue. I don't see how any one can say it is mostly on Joe.

[thecampster]

I familiar with 1-2-2 zone. I've never heard it referred to as the 4-1. Regardless my point was Joe draws the double team. Maybe not so much this year, but he draws it. No movement is our real offensive issue. I don't see how any one can say it is mostly on Joe.

now that I can agree with. And that was my whole point. Someone needs to step up here and recognize the issue. That person should be Woody or as team captain, Joe. I mean they had to go into the film room at some point and at least say, "how can we do this better?".

Interestingly, while jumping around I found this off of wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_defense

Attacking a zone defense

While strategies for countering zone defenses vary and often depend on the strengths and weaknesses of both the offensive and defensive teams, there are some general principles that are typically used by offensive teams when facing a zone.

Many popular zones (such as the 2-3 and 1-2-2) have a gap in the middle of the lane. Getting the ball in this area can be very effective because the defense is often forced to "collapse" on the ball handler, freeing up other players for open shots. To exploit this gap, many teams assign a forward to operate in the high post area near the free throw line to catch and distribute the ball. A forward in the high post area can also set screens on the players at the top of the zone to allow penetration by the guards.

Quick passing is an important element of attacking any zone. The defense will shift as the ball moves, but if the offense can move the ball faster than the defense can react, open shots can result. Quick passing against a zone often leads to open three-point shots, and zone defenses are less effective against teams with good three-point shooters.

Dribble penetration is very effective in breaking down a zone. If a guard can dribble into the gaps in the zone, multiple defenders must converge on the ball. The ball handler can then often pass to an open teammate for a shot. This strategy illustrates why preventing dribble penetration is important in playing an effective zone defense.

Maybe someone should email that to Woody too. In the one play we discussed, we talked about where Josh was, and where Joe set up. Funny how little things can break this up.

Now for the word Doubleteam, let me try arguing this better. To me a tradional double team is a commitment by 2 players to guard one guy to either deny him the ball or guard him when he has it. The argument was about Joe being double teamed all the time and no one on the hawks beside him is. This is pure folly. When Josh, Marvin drive to the hoop, does only one opponent ever try to stop them. No, multiple players collapse and try to block the shot, strip the ball on the drive or step up to take the charge. This is as much a "double team" as Joe running into a trap. But coaches in the league are not scheming that it's a better philosophy to not guard Marvin at all and permanently send his man on Joe. My point being that the Hawks are bringing alot of this on themselves by

A. Not being creative enough offensively

B. Not playing to their strengths

When Joe was out for 2 games, the Hawks had to get their points somewhere. In the first game against Minnesota, they greatly altered their offense. They took Josh Smith or Marvin Williams out of the high wing and instead moved them to the high post and played pick and roll or penetration and hit the cutter basketball utilizing their superior athleticism. Each player attempted 13 shots that game and drew 22 Free Throw attempts. They combined for 42 points. More importantly they got Bibby open look after open look and he scored 24 on only 15 shots. In the next game at Charlotte they got Marvin 15 shots, Smith 13 and Bibby 13. (43 total) using the same offensive strategy. The 3 of them combined for 53 points and 30 Free Throw attempts and this time got more people involved for a more balanced scoring attack. My point being is that with Joe, our "star" out, the Hawks were forced to be more creative offensively and use their talents more to their advantage. This led to less transition baskets for our opponents too and that in itself is huge. And note to Woody, WE WON BOTH OF THOSE GAMES!!!

Why when Joe came back, we reverted to isolation sets I'll never understand. Our offense should be flowing through Bibby, penetration and pick and roll with our 2 forwards. If I were Marvin and Josh, I'd get lost in this offense too. I can guarantee you that if Phil Jackson or Larry Brown took over this team tomorrow, we would not be running isolation sets 30 times a game for Joe. If Doug Collins were the coach of this team, I'm not even sure Horford would start. If Jerry Sloan were our coach, things would be much much different. I'm not even sure Josh Smith would still be in town if Jerry Sloan were our coach.

Coaching is everything. Ask yourself this. Would we be running ISO for Joe 30 times a game if Lenny Wilkens were back running the Hawks? Ask yourself what our offense would look like if Lenny Wilkens were our coach?

[thecampster]

Why when Joe came back, we reverted to isolation sets I'll never understand. Our offense should be flowing through Bibby, penetration and pick and roll with our 2 forwards. If I were Marvin and Josh, I'd get lost in this offense too. I can guarantee you that if Phil Jackson or Larry Brown took over this team tomorrow, we would not be running isolation sets 30 times a game for Joe. If Doug Collins were the coach of this team, I'm not even sure Horford would start. If Jerry Sloan were our coach, things would be much much different. I'm not even sure Josh Smith would still be in town if Jerry Sloan were our coach.

Coaching is everything. Ask yourself this. Would we be running ISO for Joe 30 times a game if Lenny Wilkens were back running the Hawks? Ask yourself what our offense would look like if Lenny Wilkens were our coach?

Piggybacking on my previous statement. Please read this. http://www.nba.com/history/players/wilkens_bio.html

Then ask yourself if "Mike Woodson" is the guy for the job.

[HawkItus]

I remember many a person wanting Lenny gone when he was coaching. He didn't play young guys either. I don't remember our offense being very efficient when we played a good team. I mean Lenny won more games than anybody, but he lost almost more than almost anybody too. Dude only won about half his games.

[Dsinner]

I remember many a person wanting Lenny gone when he was coaching. He didn't play young guys either. I don't remember our offense being very efficient when we played a good team. I mean Lenny won more games than anybody, but he lost almost more than almost anybody too. Dude only won about half his games.

I remember our offense being very boring and stagnant as well. In fact, offensively, he and Woody remind me of each other. Lot's of Iso's (iso-Smitty anyone?) and wouldn't trust their bench (or youngsters). The difference in the two is that Lenny was 10X the defensive mind that Woody is.

[HawkItus]

I remember our offense being very boring and stagnant as well. In fact, offensively, he and Woody remind me of each other. Lot's of Iso's (iso-Smitty anyone?) and wouldn't trust their bench (or youngsters). The difference in the two is that Lenny was 10X the defensive mind that Woody is.

Nah, the difference is Lenny had Dikembe and Mookie. End of story.

[HawkItus]

Look at this gem I found on Youtube

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Hawk...=en&tab=wv#

[TroyMcClure]

I remember our offense being very boring and stagnant as well. In fact, offensively, he and Woody remind me of each other. Lot's of Iso's (iso-Smitty anyone?) and wouldn't trust their bench (or youngsters). The difference in the two is that Lenny was 10X the defensive mind that Woody is.

Our offense may have been boring, but at least it was competent. To be fair, there was no zone defense back then, and pick and roll could run all day. Dsinner, we didn't run iso Smitty plays. That's just not factually correct. We mostly ran a two man game with Smitty and Mookie. When we weren't doing that, we were dumping it in to Deke to force a double. That's basketball. Sorry if it's boring, but it is what it is.

Edited February 24, 2009 by TroyMcClure

[Joker]

TheCampster sounds like a coach. I do agree with him to a degree. I know Woody's sets are poor but there is bball IQ that comes into play when your playing the game. Many of the Hawk players lack that. The only people who have good bball IQ on this team is Bibby, Evans, and Marvin. Bibby just has habits of wanted to jack shots to boost his stats and Marvin is weak when slashing to the basket. Evans is streaky and a bench player. I don't know what to say about this team, it's one thing that the offense is below average but the defense at the least should be solid. In the off season, I wouldn't mind bring Jason Kidd to Atlanta. Atlanta should also trade for a Center.

As for Horford coming off the bench, lol. Seriously, he one of our most consistent players and the only guy on our team with high intangibles. That alone make him one of our best starters. Another thing is the overall talent of our bench. Evans and Murray are solid, Acie good when given the opportunity but Zaza is soso and everyone else is NBDL caliber.

Edited February 24, 2009 by nbasuperstar40

[Dsinner]

Our offense may have been boring, but at least it was competent. To be fair, there was no zone defense back then, and pick and roll could run all day. Dsinner, we didn't run iso Smitty plays. That's just not factually correct. We mostly ran a two man game with Smitty and Mookie. When we weren't doing that, we were dumping it in to Deke to force a double. That's basketball. Sorry if it's boring, but it is what it is.

We ran more Iso's with Smitty than we did dumping in down to Deke in the post. I remember us AT TIMES dumping it into Mutombo but I promise you that was not a norm and I can assure you he was never doubled when we did it. Deke was a very slow and deliberate offensive post player. It simply didn't work. Yes I understand basketball and I'd much rather have Lenny than Woody but since we're talking basketball let's remember that Lenny's boring offense wasn't that good. Lenny only won a little over half his games in his career and most of those wins was because of his defense. He was a defensive coach and it is what it is.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Dsinner

[Dsinner]

Nah, the difference is Lenny had Dikembe and Mookie. End of story.

No it's actually not the end of story. Lenny's teams were frequently a top defensive team. Moreso than a top offensive team. But I do realize how good defensivley both Deke and Mook were.

[TroyMcClure]

We ran more Iso's with Smitty than we did dumping in down to Deke in the post. I remember us AT TIMES dumping it into Mutombo but I promise you that was not a norm and I can assure you he was never doubled when we did it. Deke was a very slow and deliberate offensive post player. It simply didn't work. Yes I understand basketball and I'd much rather have Lenny than Woody but since we're talking basketball let's remember that Lenny's boring offense wasn't that good. Lenny only won a little over half his games in his career and most of those wins was because of his defense. He was a defensive coach and it is what it is.

Totally 100% wrong. Our whole offense during that time revolved around a 2 man pick and roll or pick and pop with Mookie and Smitty. The other option was always to dump it into Dikembe to start the offense. The defense did have to double down, virtually every time when Deke was in his prime. So what if it looked ugly. It happened. Your memory does you a disservice on this issue. He got so low on the block and he was huge. You had to double down. He almost invited it with his clumsy attack. He had a good drop step and a pretty good hook. More than anything though, he forced a late double and often times got the defense on their heels and we were able to swing it and get the advantage.

Smitty could never "iso". Not even in his best days. Usually that led to him backing someone down and passing. Or he pulled up quickly. You are right that we did do that at times. But the bulk of the offense was the way I described it. I just can't believe you don't remember how we used Deke. It was almost to a point of being forced, we did it so much.

[Diesel]

Wow. Okay. Do you even know what a Double Team is? A double team is simply when two players defend one player. A trap is a double team. Those clips you showed were double teams. As were the examples on the clips I showed. If I dribble towards you and you leave your man to defend me, even after I retreat back to the 3 point line, you have double teamed me. My God man it's not that hard.

You beat me to it. Campster doesn't understand that no team can afford to double a guy outside of the paint all game long and play 4 on 3 defense. I think somebody said it before... Joe never picks up his dribble, so he's very hard to trap. For those who never played basketball, trapping is usually done in the corner and in the paint. In one of the clips, they said Jordan was being doubled away from the ball... Well, if he's in the paint, that will happen. However, the Knicks were a very good defensive team that tried to trap in the midcourt (using the high post) as a "corner".. As you could tell from the video, with Jordan, that didn't work because he was able to put the ball on the floor and force them to foul.

I guess the key point in this thread is that every double is not a trap.

[Diesel]

Ok let me try it this way. Portland was in a 4-1 zone. No one was guarding a man, but only guarding the Man in his zone. in a 4 - 1 zone, the 4 is the 4 corners of the lane, the 1 is the area north of the lane/or the one person guarding the point.

Actually, PTL was in a Diamond and One matchup Zone. The one being Roy. Roy is not going to play Zone, his job was to stay on Joe. It's a matchup Zone and that means that they grab the closest guy to them.. Zone rotates ball side and if the guy who has the ball comes your way, you quickly double.

[Diesel]

here is a website that refers to the 4-1 as the 1-2-2 which is probably it's most common name. The 4-1 is a basically dumbed down highschool defense which is what Portland was in. Go back and watch the video.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/122zonedefense.html

:lol6: :brick wall:

Maybe they call it a 4-1 in the undeveloped nation of qwerty uiop! But otherwise, that's a no.... Moreover, what they were playing was not a 1-2-2...

My GHOD...

[Diesel]

I remember our offense being very boring and stagnant as well. In fact, offensively, he and Woody remind me of each other. Lot's of Iso's (iso-Smitty anyone?) and wouldn't trust their bench (or youngsters). The difference in the two is that Lenny was 10X the defensive mind that Woody is.

Lenny didn't run isos.. Lenny ran DA motion offense. It was not stagnant, it just wasn't up tempo. We beat a lot of good teams with our motion offense. It relied on ball movement and the ability for every player to be able to pass. It would have been better with more movement without the ball. JR Rider fluorished in our offense because he made it into his own little iso, he neglected the pass and found holes in the defense due to everybody expecting what was coming.

[Diesel]

Look at this gem I found on Youtube

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Hawk...=en&tab=wv#

If you look in the background on the blackboard, you will see the motion offense.

[Dsinner]

Smitty could never "iso". Not even in his best days. Usually that led to him backing someone down and passing. Or he pulled up quickly. You are right that we did do that at times. But the bulk of the offense was the way I described it. I just can't believe you don't remember how we used Deke. It was almost to a point of being forced, we did it so much.

I remember us dumping it down to Deke (more than Deke ever got the ball at any other point in his career) and I remember it working most of the time. I also remember us not doing it enough. That was one of the things Lenny was criticized for was not going to Deke enough. Lenny would do it consistently for a game ( to a point of forcing it like you said) and then go 3 games without even letting Deke touch it. I remember that flaw clearly. I also remember Smitty backing down someone in the post A LOT more than Deke getting the ball down low. Both worked but it we would go several games in a row without utilizing Deke down low. More games without utilizing him than giving it to him. I don't remember the double team though. I mean, he was NEVER an offensive focal point in Denver so why would any team start double teaming someone that never showed a post up game? Put it this way, Deke's best PPG average with Atlanta was 13. You're telling me that a man getting the ball down low most of the time for an entire game only scored 13 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to believe someone being the number one scoring option down low only scored 13 a game. I have an even hardert time believing a team would consistantly double team someone with those numbers. That's how I remember it anyway.

Edited February 25, 2009 by Dsinner

[HawkItus]

If you look in the background on the blackboard, you will see the motion offense.

Know what? I had the wrong link :computer8:

this the gem I was referring to...

[Joker]

Why are we so quick to compare the 98 Hawks with this team. They had a team of vets, we have a 22 yr old SF and PF/C, and a 23 year old SF. For us to be this good is crazy especially considering their age. Portland is good as well but they have a excellent coach with a budding superstar in Brandon Roy. Everyone else on their team is either good or solid plus they have two quality centers.