Apologies 2 Billy Knight?

[khaos7]

The Hawks are on the verge of having their first winning season in years. Rick Sund is to be commended for acquiring the likes of Flip Murray and Mo Evans to give us a decent bench. However, the vast majority of our key players were acquired by BK:

Joe Johnson: the infamous trade that set the organization into a tailspin netted us an All-Star. Phoenix, who most people thought got the better end of the deal with two picks/Diaw no longer have Boris and gave up the pick that gave Boston Rajon Rondo in a trade. The other pick is Robin Lopez. So all the Suns have to show for the trade is Lopez and cash. Whereas, the Hawks have an All-Star, a guy who gets league wide recognition from the likes of Hubie Brown/Mark Jackson on ESPN telecast, a member of team Jordan (and team USA), and a go to scorer. However, some would argue that he lacks leadership and will not show up at key moments in a game. Is he a 1st or 2nd option?

Josh Smith: Diamond in the rough at 17 in the 2004 draft. Jay Bilas labeled him the guy that would most likely be a bust. Yet, he is a premier shot blocker, a guy Jalen Rose labeled the most atheltic guy in the league besides King James, and a double double waiting to happen. His win in the slam dunk contest gave the Hawks positive pub during their 13 win season. He has the most upside of any Hawks player. Yet he is known for having mental lapses during games and has had several run ins with the head coach. BB IQ is questionable.

Marvin Williams: Has the sweetest jumper on the team. He has stepped up in his fourth season and carried the scoring burden when JJ was in a slump. When Horford or Smith was out due to injury, he took it upon himself to rebound the ball and attack the glass. He has improved his three point shot. The discussion has now switched to whether he or Josh Smith actually fits the team better. That said, he has a mysterious back injury and has never quite lived up to his 2nd overall pick status. He's become a solid pro, yet still remains in the shadow of Chris Paul/Deron Williams.

Mike Bibby: With out question, the Hawks have become a winner since BK traded for him. He is shooting the best 3 point % of his career. While not a true pass first PG, he has solidified the PG position and is a backcourt a threat in tandem with JJ. He brought an intangible to the team: swagger. However, some would argue he's lost a step and is a defensive liability. Was traded to the Hawks for Shelden Williams, a guy who was traded ahead of Brandon Roy. Some question whether the Hawks would have needed Bibby if they drafted Roy.

Zaza Pachulia: Not a flashy or intimidating big guy. However, he has played quality minutes off the bench. He is a proficient offensive rebounder. His stance against Kevin Garnett in the 2008 playoffs helped to energize his team and fans. Does Milwaukee regret letting him go? He doesn't go strong to the whole and plays smaller than his size at times.

Al Horford: One word: leader. Has drawn comparisons to Buck Williams. He came into the league and provided a toughness and a desire to win the Hawks have lacked. He is evolving into a double double machine. He let the Celtics know in the playoffs the Hawks would not be intimidated. However, his offensive moves are mechanical at times. Is he playing out of place? Is he a four or a five?

Acie Law: An enigma to some. He is the Hawks best penetrating guard and defensive point. Although some likened him to Mark Jackson, he has yet be given the opportunity to lead the team due to injury and the acquistions of Bibby and Flip Murray.

Speedy Claxton: Since his acquistion, he has seldom played due to injury. He has one more year on his contract. He could be a viable trading piece, due to his expiring contract.

Honorable Mention: Solomon Jones, Josh Childress (we still have his rights)

Given the players that Billy Knight brought over, strengths and weaknesses considered, how do we truly evaluate him? Is it too early to judge? Is the franchise in better shape because of him (much to Belkin's chagrin)? Was he right to draft a bunch of 6'7 / 6'9 guys? On one hand, people suggest this cripples us in the paint. On the other people say this makes a switching defense tough to attack because everyone is the same size. Did he have a vision that equates to a winning formula? Did he stock this team with talent where we will compete for years? Or did passing over Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Brandon Roy only slow down the evolution of the team? Did he leave us in a good cap situation? Or did he set the team up by acquiring a bunch of players whose contracts will be up for extension around the same time? In totality, I believe all of these points must be considered.

[exodus]

Arguably none of the players above are as good as Roy, Paul or Deron, all of who BK passed on.

One of BK's top 6 picks is playing in Greece and another (Shelden) has been a complete bust. BK got nothing from the second round even though he had consistently high second round picks and there were many good players available.

BK's big free agent aquisition at the point, Craig, hasn't played in years.

A hockey fan with no knowlege of the NBA at all could have made better draft picks than BK.

[khaos7]

Arguably none of the players above are as good as Roy, Paul or Deron, all of who BK passed on.

One of BK's top 6 picks is playing in Greece and another (Shelden) has been a complete bust. BK got nothing from the second round even though he had consistently high second round picks and there were many good players available.

BK's big free agent aquisition at the point, Craig, hasn't played in years.

A hockey fan with no knowlege of the NBA at all could have made better draft picks than BK.

Good points. Rebuttal anybody?

[crimedog]

Arguably none of the players above are as good as Roy, Paul or Deron, all of who BK passed on.

One of BK's top 6 picks is playing in Greece and another (Shelden) has been a complete bust. BK got nothing from the second round even though he had consistently high second round picks and there were many good players available.

BK's big free agent aquisition at the point, Craig, hasn't played in years.

A hockey fan with no knowlege of the NBA at all could have made better draft picks than BK.

What this guy said.

This thread seems to pop up once a month and the synthesis is always that he didn't build the worst team in history but the strategy of passing up the most talented players so you can get more draft picks in the future was neither intelligent nor intentional.

[khaos7]

What this guy said.

This thread seems to pop up once a month and the synthesis is always that he didn't build the worst team in history but the strategy of passing up the most talented players so you can get more draft picks in the future was neither intelligent nor intentional.

I think any one who puts forth the argument that you pass up on more talented players to get more draft picks in the future is grasping at straws. If BK did that, that would be the dumbest strategy ever, in terms of building a team.

I do think, however, after winning our 41st win (assuring we won't have a losing season in the first time in years) this post is timely because (supposedly) we're starting to see the fruit of the Hawks labor. The question is, was Billy a genius or an idiot by going the route he chose.

[txsting]

I think any one who puts forth the argument that you pass up on more talented players to get more draft picks in the future is grasping at straws. If BK did that, that would be the dumbest strategy ever, in terms of building a team.

I do think, however, after winning our 41st win (assuring we won't have a losing season in the first time in years) this post is timely because (supposedly) we're starting to see the fruit of the Hawks labor. The question is, was Billy a genius or an idiot by going the route he chose.

Billy is an "accidental genius". In hindsight, it would be hard to have put together a better team. For instance, if you pick Paul, you probably don't have Horford because the team would have performed too well, and of course you don't have Marvin. You can put together all the what if's that you want to. It's true that the sooner you make good picks, the less high picks you get. The fact is, the roster turned out pretty well, 1-5, but there was a generous factor of luck involved in scoring the #3 pick to nab Horford. He is owed credit for salary management, we are in a good situation there.

BK is "Mr. Magoo". Myopic and stubborn, and it gets him into trouble, but miraculously he comes out okay. Without Horfy, this is a .500 ballclub going nowhere fast.

[gsuteke]

BK got stupid lucky we didn't give the Suns the 4th pick and wound up with Horford. Without Horford this doesn't exist.

I supported the decision to draft Shelden at the time but Billy Knight got paid to be smarter than that. That's why he was the GM and I was the guy typing on a Hawks msg board.

Blowing that pick set the Hawks back 2 years and they're still not as good as they could have been today.

Edited March 20, 2009 by gsuteke

[HawkItus]

Not having Roy is really the killer. If he had of gotten Roy along with JJ, he could of done a sign and trade for Chillz or Marvin last Summer for some size.

[crimedog]

Billy is an "accidental genius". In hindsight, it would be hard to have put together a better team. For instance, if you pick Paul, you probably don't have Horford because the team would have performed too well, and of course you don't have Marvin. You can put together all the what if's that you want to. It's true that the sooner you make good picks, the less high picks you get. The fact is, the roster turned out pretty well, 1-5, but there was a generous factor of luck involved in scoring the #3 pick to nab Horford. He is owed credit for salary management, we are in a good situation there.

BK is "Mr. Magoo". Myopic and stubborn, and it gets him into trouble, but miraculously he comes out okay. Without Horfy, this is a .500 ballclub going nowhere fast.

These are the conversations that get us into complaining but what are you gonna do.

Without any of our starters except Marv, this is a poor team. Not the case with Paul who is a true superstar and the type of player that is a cornerstone of a perrenial contender.

[capstone21]

Arguably none of the players above are as good as Roy, Paul or Deron, all of who BK passed on.

One of BK's top 6 picks is playing in Greece and another (Shelden) has been a complete bust. BK got nothing from the second round even though he had consistently high second round picks and there were many good players available.

BK's big free agent aquisition at the point, Craig, hasn't played in years.

A hockey fan with no knowlege of the NBA at all could have made better draft picks than BK.

The Paul/Deron miss is obvious and has been talked about to death.

As for Roy. Coming into the draft it was thought that he had injuries that were going to limit his career.

Also, we probably would have went with Foye (who most people on the board at the time wanted instead of Roy). I think with having JJ there was not really a need for Roy.

I don't agree with the Sheldon draft but I don't think we would have taken Roy either. Who would have thought he would become this good.

[khaos7]

These are the conversations that get us into complaining but what are you gonna do.

Without any of our starters except Marv, this is a poor team. Not the case with Paul who is a true superstar and the type of player that is a cornerstone of a perrenial contender.

You are right. This is the type of question that would lead people to say what woulda/coulda/shoulda. However, it should be conversation geared towards reflection. After a decade or so of awful basketball, we finally have a winning team! We're playing good ball right now. How much recognition does Billy deserve for this? Does BK have the right to sit back in his LazyBoy and say "I told you so" because this team is built for the long haul and finally got over the hump of losing year in and year out? Or, do we say, we're happy to be winning, but we could have been doing this a long time ago? I think, by hitting the 41 win mark, these are timely questions.

[coachx]

Not having Roy is really the killer. If he had of gotten Roy along with JJ, he could of done a sign and trade for Chillz or Marvin last Summer for some size.

For who ? An over paid, and over 30, Jermaine O'Niel or Brad Miller ? What would we have done last year to fill the C hole ? Start ZaZa at center again ?

Had we drafted Roy rather then Shelden, we would have not had the 3rd pick the next year to get Horford. That pick would have gone to the Suns if not top 3. Heck, I thought most guys wanted Foye that year b/c he could potentially fill the PG hole we had at that time and Roy had stress fracture red flags on his X-Rays ( that still may haunt him later in he career.) Heck, at that time we had a 25 year old JJ, a 20 year old Marvin, and a 22 year old Chillz at that time. What business would we have haddrafting another wing that year ? Some people just refuse to see that.

In the long run it may play out quite well the way the cards fell. JJ is alot like Roy.... and Horford has some intangibles and versitillity to play the 4 and 5 which is arguebally just as valuable as having a 2nd, allstar quality, wing player (without a starting caliber center).

Chillz...........Its not BK's fault that Greeve offered more money then any US team could, in a year when the recession hit, the stock market collapsed, and international currency rates in favor of Europe all lined up for a American FA to jet to Europe for a bigger pay day. That is not BK's fault. Maybe he could have drafted Deng or Iggy but its not like Chillz "was chop liver" ( as Rick Sund liks to say).

I agree BK was much more lucky, then good, with obtaining the #3 pick through the lottery. the same pick used on Horford in the same year our pick was only top 3 protected. However, that saying of "better lucky then good" has some merit to it. After all, any team who wins the lottery or gets a higher then expected pick is more lucky then good. The Spurs were lucky when they won the lottery for Duncan and Robinson. Heck, they hit the lottery jack pot twice in the same decade ! So for the Hawks to get a better then expected pick only once out 5 consecutive trips to the lottery is really not that much lottery luck at all when looked at as a whole.

The could of should of game sucks any way. There is just no way to know what could have been. Heck, the way things worked out we are on our way to 50 wins ! I'm a happy Hawks fan !

Edited March 20, 2009 by coachx

[khaos7]

At the end of the day, I don't think Billy was doofus like some of us thought he was or a genius like a small minority of us might claim. I think he had a gambler's mentality. That mentality paid off with JJ and Josh Smith. It had mixed returns with Marvin. He overplayed his hand with Shelden. He had some gamblers luck getting Horford at 3 and not losing the pick. If we stick with the poker analogy, did he win or did he ultimately lose at the table?

[bronnt]

The flip side of the coin is that BK HAD so many high lottery picks to play with in a 5 year span, it would have been hard NOT to assemble a talented team. It's completely possible to draft complete busts in the top 10-even multiple times-but in the top 10 of the draft, it's harder to find guys who DON'T work out. The guys at the top are just too talented and have too much upside to be complete wastes.

For example-in the case of Marvin Williams, he completely made the worst possible decision (within reason-I suppose he could have taken Channing Frye, but he was never really in the equation), and yet Marvin's talented enough that he's still not a complete waste of a draft pick. In fact he's even a player who has plenty of value at this point.

He again made the worst possible decision in drafting Shelden in 2006, when pretty much anything would have worked out better. It's impossible to justify, but the point is that 7 out of the top 10 players in a bad draft AREN'T worthless.

In 2007, he made the best possible choice at #3, but if you look at the rest of the top 10 picks following Horford, all of those guys are valuable to their teams (well, except maybe Corey Brewer). Even Yi is developing, and Mike Conley, the other considered choice, is on a tear lately. Jeff Green, who I thought had bust written all over him, is going for 17/7.

Basically, if you get enough high picks in a short time period, it's gonna pay off, whether you deserve it or not.

[tonegully]

Why do we keep dwelling on the past? What ifs? Dude BK put our team together from scratch. He missed some, oh well its all water under the bridge.

Bk put our team together and Sund is finishing it off. Im not complaining at all. The only thing im worried about is where would our team be if Woody was fired and another coach was brought in. Thats about it.

[exodus]

For who ? An over paid, and over 30, Jermaine O'Niel or Brad Miller ? What would we have done last year to fill the C hole ? Start ZaZa at center again ?

Had we drafted Roy rather then Shelden, we would have not had the 3rd pick the next year to get Horford. That pick would have gone to the Suns if not top 3.

Uhh... the only reason we got that 3rd pick is because we won the lottery which we very well could have done with Roy on the roster. After all Porland and Seatle both had better records than the Hawks yet they picked 1 and 2.

Roy had stress fracture red flags on his X-Rays

No what he has is an elongated bone in his heel that has caused problems. He could be easily cured by surgery by just shaving down the bone but so far he has been reluctant to do it.

There has never been any reports of stress fractures.

[crimedog]

You are right. This is the type of question that would lead people to say what woulda/coulda/shoulda. However, it should be conversation geared towards reflection. After a decade or so of awful basketball, we finally have a winning team! We're playing good ball right now. How much recognition does Billy deserve for this? Does BK have the right to sit back in his LazyBoy and say "I told you so" because this team is built for the long haul and finally got over the hump of losing year in and year out? Or, do we say, we're happy to be winning, but we could have been doing this a long time ago? I think, by hitting the 41 win mark, these are timely questions.

I am enjoying the trip. I'm loving this season. I'm loving when I go to the bar to watch the games and all the Knicks fans tell me they're cheering for Altanta because we're exciting and finally good.

That doesn't mean there weren't a lot of easy ways for the team to have more talent and potential.

Regarding being built for the long haul, what does that mean? I've always thought that a team best positioned for the long haul is a team built around a young superstar (like Paul, Deron, or even Roy). The fact is we could have had any of those guys plus secondary stars like Joe and Smith and from there you don't need to worry about getting expensive talent at other positions, just filler.

[AtLaS]

BK was terrible. He managed to screw up so bad that the Hawks stayed bad enough for him to get lucky and keep the 3rd pick in the 07 draft. Sorry but I don't pat luck on the back.

BK screwed up every lottery pick he had. Childress was nowhere near as good Iggy/Deng who were drafted right behind him (and were rated higher predraft), and Shelden and Marvin just don't need to be explained. Because of his lotto screwups, the Hawks managed to remain such a bad team that we got to keep our top 3 protected pick, get lucky on about a 30% chance of keeping that pick and getting Horford.

Rebuilding shouldn't take 6 years with top 5 picks every year and unlimited cap space.

[Dsinner]

BK was terrible. He managed to screw up so bad that the Hawks stayed bad enough for him to get lucky and keep the 3rd pick in the 07 draft. Sorry but I don't pat luck on the back.

BK screwed up every lottery pick he had. Childress was nowhere near as good Iggy/Deng who were drafted right behind him (and were rated higher predraft), and Shelden and Marvin just don't need to be explained. Because of his lotto screwups, the Hawks managed to remain such a bad team that we got to keep our top 3 protected pick, get lucky on about a 30% chance of keeping that pick and getting Horford.

Rebuilding shouldn't take 6 years with top 5 picks every year and unlimited cap space.

...and here's where the thread should end.

[jerrywest]

Today is a wrong day to praise BK.

I cursed at him every time Roy scored in the 4th quarter against the Cavs. What a stud.