Billy Knight haters

[NJHAWK]

Ive said it a hundred times and I'll say it again, Billy Knight not only built this team from the ground up HE TRADED SWAMP LAND IN FLORIDA FOR THE SOLID GROUND TO BUILD IT ON. He should get gm of the year this year, lol but he really should.

[exodus]

Ive said it a hundred times and I'll say it again, Billy Knight not only built this team from the ground up HE TRADED SWAMP LAND IN FLORIDA FOR THE SOLID GROUND TO BUILD IT ON. He should get gm of the year this year, lol but he really should.

I think you have to actually have a job in order to get GM of the year.

Nets by 7, 3 minutes left.

[crimedog]

All I'm saying without getting into too much whatif.. is had we drafted Paul, we would have been too good to merit having another lottery pick during BK's tenure. I'm not saying that that justifies taking an inferior player (although a GM who took players that they knew they had to wait for just so they could have a team full of lottery picks would be some serious futurethinking.). Unfortunately, if you have to wait on them in this day and time, they are probably not that good. Rose, Mayo, Beasley, CP3, Melo, Bron, and guys like that are destroying the waiting period theory.

... I understand that. What I'm saying is that we passed up two players that you can build a team around so we had more chances to draft players that should be used to build around the aforementioned players.

Saying that you should give BK credit for the team that is on the floor and ignore everything else is as valid as saying that BK should only be evaluated based on what the team he could have built.

[BusBoyIsBack]

... I understand that. What I'm saying is that we passed up two players that you can build a team around so we had more chances to draft players that should be used to build around the aforementioned players.

Saying that you should give BK credit for the team that is on the floor and ignore everything else is as valid as saying that BK should only be evaluated based on what the team he could have built.

Of course people should be evaluated for their pros and their cons.

That's not the case with Billy Knight, people literally solely focus on the misses. His entire legacy is defined as passing on Roy and Paul/Deron and quite frankly that is not fair.

If we were a garbage to mediocre team and we passed on those guys then yeah those should define his legacy. But the fact that we are one of the youngest teams in the league with arguably one of the brightest futures, it's beyond absurd to let the gaffes alone define his legacy.

[Diesel]

... I understand that. What I'm saying is that we passed up two players that you can build a team around so we had more chances to draft players that should be used to build around the aforementioned players.

Saying that you should give BK credit for the team that is on the floor and ignore everything else is as valid as saying that BK should only be evaluated based on what the team he could have built.

Drafting is not GMing though.

I'm not saying that BK gets credit for his mistakes... or the opportunities that his mistakes gave. I'm saying that he should get credit for good moves he made just like he take blame for the bad ones.

Good ones:

Drafting the Joshes.

Drafting Horf.

Trading for Joe, Bibby.

Bad Ones:

Shelden

Marvin

Not resigning Pryz.

All of these are subjective but we have to consider them all in judging him.

Saying that this team is not a BK built team is to ignore the truth.

[sturt]

ex, for what it's worth, I sympathize with the real life difficulties you spoke about... that's hard stuff to endure.

[TheTrueSiete]

I'll play your game, putting aside the fact that Detroit can't even begin to claim that they've gotten better each season.

If Detroit makes it to the playoffs next year with players that Millen obtained, what would that tell you?

That Millen was wrong about the players obtained? Or, that Millen sucked at choosing coaches? Or... that he should have chosen better uniforms or a better place for training camp or wasn't choosing the most effective performance-enhancing supplments?

You're a smart guy. What conclusion would you reach?

I do my best to set you straight, but so far it ain't working. There's a point where you have to think it through cause I can't do that part for you.

If Detroit makes it to the playoffs next year, what wasted 1st round picks are still there that he drafted? Roy Williams... Nope... Charles Rogers... Nope... Mike Williams... Nope... Should I keep going?

That tells me "that Matt Millen was wrong about the players HE obtained"... The fact that the team has yet to get better under any coach HE hired tells me that HE chose the wrong coaches... It's truly not hard to see that Matt Millen stunted the growth of that franchise... That should be the "conclusion" that anyone would reach when examining what happened to that franchise... And as far as setting me "straight" and having me "think it through", GET THE HELL OFF THAT PEDESTAL YOU PUT YOURSELF ON... If you're so blind that you can't relate what Millen did to what Knight did, then you're either blind or truly ignorant... Think that through!

7

[AHF]

I can only see a connection between Knight and Millen in a very general sense that would also sweep in a ton of other GMs. Millen was arguably the worst GM in all of sports. Knight was a mediocre to sub-par NBA GM who was never in the bottom three (to pick an arbitrary number) of NBA GMs, IMO.

[TheTrueSiete]

I can only see a connection between Knight and Millen in a very general sense that would also sweep in a ton of other GMs. Millen was arguably the worst GM in all of sports. Knight was a mediocre to sub-par NBA GM who was never in the bottom three (to pick an arbitrary number) of NBA GMs, IMO.

That leads me to ask who your bottom three would consist of?

7

[AHF]

That leads me to ask who your bottom three would consist of?

7

I haven't ranked but here are three (in no particular order) I think were inferior to BK:

1 - Isiah Thomas. Squandered unparalleled financial resources (see what can be done in Portland versus Isiah's need to build "chemistry" with guys like Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, etc.) and numerous draft picks (for example, traded the pick that could have been Amare Stoudemire for a past-his-prime McDyess, gave up high first round picks for Eddy Curry, etc.). Add in the sexual harassment settlement in the seven figures and his time as GM can't be anything other than a huge disaster leaving a pile of toxic waste for the next guy to clean up. At least he nailed some mid to late first round picks like David Lee and Nate Robinson. Not quite as good as Amare Stoudamire, LeMarcus Aldridge and Thaddeus Young, though (guys taken or available with the dealt picks).

2 - Elgin Baylor. Squandered more high first round picks than probably any other GM in NBA history without any real success to show for it. Took players like Yaroslav Korolev, Keyon Dooling, Melvin Ely, Michael Olowokandi, Lorenzen Wright and many others in the lottery. Baylor is like a worse version of BK.

3 - Michael Jordan. The names Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, and others just roll off the tongue for a guy who wasted premium picks and showed little interest in his job and even less success. The trades that have improved the Bobcats have come from their new de facto GM, Larry Brown. MJ has been a disaster as a GM.

[exodus]

I haven't ranked but here are three (in no particular order) I think were inferior to BK:

1 - Isiah Thomas. Squandered unparalleled financial resources (see what can be done in Portland versus Isiah's need to build "chemistry" with guys like Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, etc.) and numerous draft picks (for example, traded the pick that could have been Amare Stoudemire for a past-his-prime McDyess, gave up high first round picks for Eddy Curry, etc.). Add in the sexual harassment settlement in the seven figures and his time as GM can't be anything other than a huge disaster leaving a pile of toxic waste for the next guy to clean up. At least he nailed some mid to late first round picks like David Lee and Nate Robinson. Not quite as good as Amare Stoudamire, LeMarcus Aldridge and Thaddeus Young, though (guys taken or available with the dealt picks).

2 - Elgin Baylor. Squandered more high first round picks than probably any other GM in NBA history without any real success to show for it. Took players like Yaroslav Korolev, Keyon Dooling, Melvin Ely, Michael Olowokandi, Lorenzen Wright and many others in the lottery. Baylor is like a worse version of BK.

3 - Michael Jordan. The names Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, and others just roll off the tongue for a guy who wasted premium picks and showed little interest in his job and even less success. The trades that have improved the Bobcats have come from their new de facto GM, Larry Brown. MJ has been a disaster as a GM.

No bottom 3 list of NBA GMs could be complete without McHale.

[TheTrueSiete]

I haven't ranked but here are three (in no particular order) I think were inferior to BK:

1 - Isiah Thomas. Squandered unparalleled financial resources (see what can be done in Portland versus Isiah's need to build "chemistry" with guys like Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, etc.) and numerous draft picks (for example, traded the pick that could have been Amare Stoudemire for a past-his-prime McDyess, gave up high first round picks for Eddy Curry, etc.). Add in the sexual harassment settlement in the seven figures and his time as GM can't be anything other than a huge disaster leaving a pile of toxic waste for the next guy to clean up. At least he nailed some mid to late first round picks like David Lee and Nate Robinson. Not quite as good as Amare Stoudamire, LeMarcus Aldridge and Thaddeus Young, though (guys taken or available with the dealt picks).

2 - Elgin Baylor. Squandered more high first round picks than probably any other GM in NBA history without any real success to show for it. Took players like Yaroslav Korolev, Keyon Dooling, Melvin Ely, Michael Olowokandi, Lorenzen Wright and many others in the lottery. Baylor is like a worse version of BK.

3 - Michael Jordan. The names Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, and others just roll off the tongue for a guy who wasted premium picks and showed little interest in his job and even less success. The trades that have improved the Bobcats have come from their new de facto GM, Larry Brown. MJ has been a disaster as a GM.

Wasn't Baylor exec of the year in 2006? And Lo Wright sounds familiar...

7

[AHF]

Wasn't Baylor exec of the year in 2006? And Lo Wright sounds familiar...

7

Are you saying that you think Elgin Baylor is anything but a bottom 3 NBA GM? That sounds like what you are saying.

As for Lo Wright, he was a gamble as a washed up, minimum contract player when BK acquired him.

Where the Hawks really screwed up with Wright was Babcock's trade of two first round picks for him. One lottery pick and another pick than was used to select Quentin Richardson. The Wright signing was solid based on his stats for the preceding years - he just performed MUCH worse for the Hawks than for others and ended up being a backup player who didn't pan out. So the Wright signing doesn't score BK points for me, but isn't much of a problem either.

Kevin McHale also deserves to be on the "lower than BK" list, as exodus mentioned. I was just picking the first three that came to mind. Probably others as well.

Don't take this for an endorsement of BK - it is simply a statement that BK wasn't the disaster for the Hawks that Millen was for the Lions.

[Dsinner]

Given that my name, and not Dsinners, was in your post i thought you were actually talking about me. When i said nobody i actually was talking about me but i can certainly understand why you would miss that.

GD Heat have tied the game.

Ladies, ladies I'm thrilled you've included me in your salon'ish evening bantering but I'd appreciate it if the real world continues to believe I have better things to do than have e-arguments all day.

Diesel, it's funny how you believe Marvin's absence was a direct correlation with our winning streak but can't apply the same logic to Sund's entering and the Hawks finally have a winning season. Would that not be the same simple logic? It's a rhetorical question BTW don't count on me to respond and start an e-war with you. Not my style.

[TheTrueSiete]

Are you saying that you think Elgin Baylor is anything but a bottom 3 NBA GM? That sounds like what you are saying.

As for Lo Wright, he was a gamble as a washed up, minimum contract player when BK acquired him.

Where the Hawks really screwed up with Wright was Babcock's trade of two first round picks for him. One lottery pick and another pick than was used to select Quentin Richardson. The Wright signing was solid based on his stats for the preceding years - he just performed MUCH worse for the Hawks than for others and ended up being a backup player who didn't pan out. So the Wright signing doesn't score BK points for me, but isn't much of a problem either.

Kevin McHale also deserves to be on the "lower than BK" list, as exodus mentioned. I was just picking the first three that came to mind. Probably others as well.

Don't take this for an endorsement of BK - it is simply a statement that BK wasn't the disaster for the Hawks that Millen was for the Lions.

What I'm saying is that the NBA thought better of Baylor in 2006 (not my personal opinion because come on we're talking about the Clippers)... Bottom line is that both Knight and Millen stunted the growth of their respective franchises in regards to their draft day decisions, which was my original argument...

7

[AHF]

What I'm saying is that the NBA thought better of Baylor in 2006 (not my personal opinion because come on we're talking about the Clippers)... Bottom line is that both Knight and Millen stunted the growth of their respective franchises in regards to their draft day decisions, which was my original argument...

7

Agreed but the same is true with a LOT of GMs and Millen's overall incompetence was much worse, IMO. If I own an NBA franchise and have to pick a GM from among the 2006-07 GMs, I am picking BK over several guys. If I own an NFL franchise and have to pick a GM from all NFL GMs in NFL history, I don't know that there is anyone I would pick Millen over. I'll say that among 2007-08 GMs, for sure, that Millen ranks last.

[sturt]

If Detroit makes it to the playoffs next year, what wasted 1st round picks are still there that he drafted? Roy Williams... Nope... Charles Rogers... Nope... Mike Williams... Nope... Should I keep going?

That tells me "that Matt Millen was wrong about the players HE obtained"... The fact that the team has yet to get better under any coach HE hired tells me that HE chose the wrong coaches... It's truly not hard to see that Matt Millen stunted the growth of that franchise... That should be the "conclusion" that anyone would reach when examining what happened to that franchise... And as far as setting me "straight" and having me "think it through", GET THE HELL OFF THAT PEDESTAL YOU PUT YOURSELF ON... If you're so blind that you can't relate what Millen did to what Knight did, then you're either blind or truly ignorant... Think that through!

Siete, pardon the observation, but it was your analogy, and your question, in an attempt to extend your analogy to BK.

Were you not attempting to make the point that giving credit to BK for this team is like giving Millen credit if DET went to next season's playoffs?

So, if that's the case, who from ATL compares to Mike Williams, to Roy Williams, and to Charles Rogers?

There's no denying that Sund made some very good decisions in the off season, and there's no telling whether BK would have made as good or worse or better decisions. But the core of this team is BK's.

Btw, while I haven't studied it, I'm almost certain that Millen acquired several DET players beyond those you named, and indeed, if next year's team goes to the playoffs with a majority of the starters being Millen's guys, then as I was trying to get through to you, there's no good rationale for blaming me for giving Millen credit for knowing talent better than anyone would have realized at the time. It's like arguing whether the sun comes up in the east... it's just a natural law of logic.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Matt Millen built the worst team in NFL history.

Billy Knight built one of the best young teams currently in the NBA.

It's a joke people even entertain that comparison

[AtLaS]

I haven't ranked but here are three (in no particular order) I think were inferior to BK:

1 - Isiah Thomas. Squandered unparalleled financial resources (see what can be done in Portland versus Isiah's need to build "chemistry" with guys like Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury, Jerome James, Zach Randolph, etc.) and numerous draft picks (for example, traded the pick that could have been Amare Stoudemire for a past-his-prime McDyess, gave up high first round picks for Eddy Curry, etc.). Add in the sexual harassment settlement in the seven figures and his time as GM can't be anything other than a huge disaster leaving a pile of toxic waste for the next guy to clean up. At least he nailed some mid to late first round picks like David Lee and Nate Robinson. Not quite as good as Amare Stoudamire, LeMarcus Aldridge and Thaddeus Young, though (guys taken or available with the dealt picks).

2 - Elgin Baylor. Squandered more high first round picks than probably any other GM in NBA history without any real success to show for it. Took players like Yaroslav Korolev, Keyon Dooling, Melvin Ely, Michael Olowokandi, Lorenzen Wright and many others in the lottery. Baylor is like a worse version of BK.

3 - Michael Jordan. The names Kwame Brown, Adam Morrison, and others just roll off the tongue for a guy who wasted premium picks and showed little interest in his job and even less success. The trades that have improved the Bobcats have come from their new de facto GM, Larry Brown. MJ has been a disaster as a GM.

Although I agree MJ isn't a good GM, it has recently surfaced that he didn't want to draft Kwame, which is by far considered his biggest mistake. He probably just didn't want to throw them under the bus and get into a media battle. The Morrison pick was terrible though.

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba/nba-news/mich...wn-ar50239.html

[AHF]

Color me skeptical on MJ not having the power to make his own deal/pick.