Yeah we lost, but how about Smoove?

[exodus]

Oh really? What he said is a fact? So if Woody didn't say it, what makes it a fact? I'd be interested in seeing how you can prove that fact. Otherwise maybe you can change your statement to be "What DSinner said in point 4 is just his opinion." ... because that's all it is, opinion.

Either Woody has never tried to get Smith to stop shooting 3s or he has been unsuccessful in doing so. We know one of these has to be true because Smith is still shooting 3s.

It isn't an opinion that Smith is still shooting 3s, it is a fact.

[Admin]

Either Woody has never tried to get Smith to stop shooting 3s or he has been unsuccessful in doing so. We know one of these has to be true because Smith is still shooting 3s.

It isn't an opinion that Smith is still shooting 3s, it is a fact.

The point is that it's highly unlikely that nobody has ever on any level told Smith not to shoot 3's. That was the clear point in my original post. Either you agree or disagree with it.

So now the point that you're trying to make is that Smith is still shooting 3's? I haven't seen where that has been argued for/against anywhere in this thread so it's a bit pointless to mention that as fact since it's well known by 100% of Hawks fans.

[exodus]

The point is that it's highly unlikely that nobody has ever on any level told Smith not to shoot 3's. That was the clear point in my original post. Either you agree or disagree with it.

So now the point that you're trying to make is that Smith is still shooting 3's? I haven't seen where that has been argued for/against anywhere in this thread so it's a bit pointless to mention that as fact since it's well known by 100% of Hawks fans.

Let's look at the quote in question again.

So, at least in the pro's, he has NEVER had a coach that told him to stop taking them. At least not until it was too late

Did you not see the part in bold or do you not understand it?

The bottom line is that Woody either hasn't told Smith not to shoot 3s or he has been unable to get Smith to stop shooting 3s. ONE OR THE OTHER HAS TO BE TRUE BECAUSE SMITH IS STILL SHOOTING 3s.

[coachx]

Josh is learning............just at a slower clip then we would like. Attitude on the court goes along way. I think we all want to see a more positive attitude out there and would like to see him rebound and box out more consistently. Are the 3's really as bad as we let on this year ? He has definately cut down on his attempts. as hard headed as Smith is, I'm sure coaches and teamates, a like, have been in his ear about it over the years.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/josh_smith/career_stats.html

Here is how his 3 point shooting attempts have decreased since 06-07:

06-07 / 2.11 3pt att/gm

07-08 / 1.22 3pt att/gm

08-09 / 1.11 3pt att/gm

People have definately been in Smith's ear about shooting 3's. One 3 per game is not that bad. Many of them come when the shot clock is running down and I'm sure there are a few half court heaves at the end of quarters in there.

I blast him for shooting too many 3's all the time, but truth be told he does not do it as often as you would think for the amount of time we spend b*tching about it.

On a positive notes:

1. Josh has lowered his turnovers from 3.15 /per gm in 06-07, to 3.02 per/gm in 07-08, to 2.39 per/gm in 08-09

It would be great if he could get that number under 2 turnovers per game next year, say 1.8 to 1.9.

2. Josh has improved his FG % from .439 in 06-07, to .457 in 07-08, to .489 in 08-09.

There is no reason for that number to not be above .500 next season.

There are some positives about Josh we should bring up.

[AHF]

In an attempt to get everyone on the same page:

Woody said it in HIS own words..."we're not going to tell Josh to stop taking 3s".

This is a fact. (I didn't check the quote but it is close enough for our purposes even if it is not exact).

A lot of Woody huggers will say it was taken out of contest or whatever, but if you watched the interview (or speak our native language called english) you would know this is EXACTLY what he said.

This is worded in a provoking way but if you boil this down to "Woodson made it clear in his comments that he wasn't asking Josh Smith to stop shooting in his interview" then this is a fact.

The bit about huggers, etc. and about whether Woodson could have secretly intended some other meaning is speculation.

So, at least in the pro's, he has NEVER had a coach that told him to stop taking them. At least not until it was too late.

This is speculation on the NEVER part and the too late part. Whether Josh is capable of being reined in on his shot selection is speculation.

The fact that goes with this is that Woodson either has never told him to stop taking threes or has been ineffective in reining Josh's 3pt shooting in.

* * * * *

Everyone on board with this?

[exodus]

The fact that goes with this is that Woodson either has never told him to stop taking threes or has been ineffective in reining Josh's 3pt shooting in.

Is the word never speculation in the sentence above?

As far as the too late part being speculation that is just another way of saying that once Woody let Smith start shooting 3s (late in his 2nd season) he hasn't been able to get him to stop. This of course is assuming he actually tried.

[TheTrueSiete]

Josh is learning............just at a slower clip then we would like. Attitude on the court goes along way. I think we all want to see a more positive attitude out there and would like to see him rebound and box out more consistently. Are the 3's really as bad as we let on this year ? He has definately cut down on his attempts. as hard headed as Smith is, I'm sure coaches and teamates, a like, have been in his ear about it over the years.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/josh_smith/career_stats.html

Here is how his 3 point shooting attempts have decreased since 06-07:

06-07 / 2.11 3pt att/gm

07-08 / 1.22 3pt att/gm

08-09 / 1.11 3pt att/gm

People have definately been in Smith's ear about shooting 3's. One 3 per game is not that bad. Many of them come when the shot clock is running down and I'm sure there are a few half court heaves at the end of quarters in there.

I blast him for shooting too many 3's all the time, but truth be told he does not do it as often as you would think for the amount of time we spend b*tching about it.

On a positive notes:

1. Josh has lowered his turnovers from 3.15 /per gm in 06-07, to 3.02 per/gm in 07-08, to 2.39 per/gm in 08-09

It would be great if he could get that number under 2 turnovers per game next year, say 1.8 to 1.9.

2. Josh has improved his FG % from .439 in 06-07, to .457 in 07-08, to .489 in 08-09.

There is no reason for that number to not be above .500 next season.

There are some positives about Josh we should bring up.

:angel19:

7

[HawksFan87]

no matter how much smoove improves, some here will always have something negative to say.. oh well he's been much better lately.. HE did what he could... now the other players need to step up...

[exodus]

There are some positives about Josh we should bring up.

Speaking of positives there is one thing i noticed last game that seemed like a deliberate change. Way too often Smith goes inside and hurries up an off balance shot. Last game he frequently faked before shooting which has two benefits. First it might actually work and get the defender off his feet. Secondly it allows Smith to get his feet under him and go up on balance.

[AHF]

Is the word never speculation in the sentence above?

It is an either/or situation. Two mutually exclusive possibilities. One must be true. The other cannot be true. I think that is different from speculation but there is an unknown element since we do not know which statement is true and which is false.

[exodus]

It is an either/or situation. Two mutually exclusive possibilities. One must be true. The other cannot be true. I think that is different from speculation but there is an unknown element since we do not know which statement is true and which is false.

I agree which is why i was a little confused by this.

This is speculation on the NEVER part and the too late part. Whether Josh is capable of being reined in on his shot selection is speculation.

[AHF]

I agree which is why i was a little confused by this.

Because Dsinner's statement was not an either/or statement where part must be true. It was simply a statement that Josh has never had a coach who told him to stop taking 3's which is speculation in my mind.

So, at least in the pro's, he has NEVER had a coach that told him to stop taking them. At least not until it was too late.

If we don't watch someone shooting baskets before practice but we know he shot baskets, we can say with 100% certainty that either the guy made a shot or missed all of them. We don't know which is true but one or the other must be and it is not speculative whether that is the case.

However, if we say that he made a shot that is speculation because we don't know if it is true or not for sure. That statement could be 100% false.

Likewise, saying that Smith has never been told by a coach in the pro's to stop shooting threes is speculation because it may be 100% false. However, since we know Smith keeps taking 3's, we know with 100% certainty that Woodson has either not tried to stop Smith from shooting 3's or has failed to get him to stop shooting 3's. One of those conditions must be true and there is nothing speculative about saying that one or the other must be true.

[exodus]

Because Dsinner's statement was not an either/or statement where part must be true.

I read it as an either or statement that just happened to be in two sentences.

When he said "At least not until it was too late" that means to me that even if Woody tried to stop Smith from shooting 3s it wasn't effective.

[Dsinner]

Hugger = Someone who can read

Woody did not say that he (or the coaching staff) NEVER told Josh not to shoot 3's. Way to make stuff up to try and make your point.

Way to run a MB for the Hawks and not really follow them. That was a FACT he said that.

[Dsinner]

No, he's misquoting Woody as his basis for trying to disprove my point and to use your favorite line ... reading is fundamental. Here is the original post.

It's not a separate issue because the original post to which I replied to said that Josh was NEVER told to not shoot 3's. The ONLY thing Woody said this year about it is that they ARE NOT telling him not to shoot 3's, not that they have NEVER told him (meaning in the past up until that moment) to not shoot 3's. Then DSinner comes out with the "hugger" line and trying to be cleverly insulting while failing miserably.

Speaking of reading, that wasn't my post.

And "hugger" is not clever so why woud you assume this? I was simply stating the overhyped verbage of todays teens so that most of this board could follow my post. Well, I guess I did fail miserably.

[Admin]

Way to run a MB for the Hawks and not really follow them. That was a FACT he said that.

It's a FACT? Really? Well then if it's a FACT that he said that then please show me PROOF that Woodson said ... We have NEVER told Josh to not shoot 3's. As an FYI I'll put the quote here for you and you can show me where in that quote Woody said what I put in bold.

“Josh is five years in the league now, man,” Woodson said after Smith’s 5-for-19 shooting effort in the loss to the Rockets. “And it comes down to time, score and situation. That’s the bottom line. We’re not telling him he can’t shoot 3-pointers but if you miss four or five jump shots, something has to go off in his head that says, ‘I have to do something else.’ “

Do you understand the difference between ... Have never and We're not?

The former refers to the past up until the moment of the statement while the latter refers to the present only. Based on Woodson's statement it's possible (albeit unlikely) that every day up until that day he was told not to shoot 3's.

In regard to your other post I am aware that it wasn't your post and clearly said so throughout this thread that you were replying to me and that I was replying to the post I linked.

[Dsinner]

Give me a break. First, notice I said THE ORIGINAL POST THAT I REPLIED TO? I NEVER said the original post was DSinners. I am "accusing" DSinner of making stuff up in his reply which indirectly called me (or anyone that agreed with me) a "hugger".

Facts:

1. Woody never said that he has NEVER told Josh not to shoot 3's.

2. Buckeye insinuated that was the case with his post (again the original post that I replied to).

3. I replied to Buckeye and corrected him, he agreed with me.

4. DSinner says "So, at least in the pro's, he has NEVER had a coach that told him to stop taking them. At least not until it was too late.".

5. I replied to DSinner and corrected him.

6. Exodus blindly jumped to his rescue (apparently without reading his entire post) by saying "That is what you are doing. He is taking Woody's direct quote. Woody said point blank that he isn't telling Smith not to shoot 3s. ". Sorry Ex but what DSinner said in point 4 is not Woody's "direct quote".

You may now go back to finding kitten's in trees to rescue as your attempt here has failed.

Man, I'm really not trying to be mean but I suggest you go back an re-read my posts. You are WAY off on what I said.

[AHF]

I read it as an either or statement that just happened to be in two sentences.

When he said "At least not until it was too late" that means to me that even if Woody tried to stop Smith from shooting 3s it wasn't effective.

If you read that as being the equivalent of what I wrote, then we agree. I just leave the door open for a very different interpretation that Woody initially told Smith "no threes" and then gave up on that way too early rather than brought it to the table way too late.

[Popeye]

5 rebounds and 4 turnovers is pretty bad...

[exodus]

If you read that as being the equivalent of what I wrote, then we agree. I just leave the door open for a very different interpretation that Woody initially told Smith "no threes" and then gave up on that way too early rather than brought it to the table way too late.

I just realized that the argument i have been making in this thread is completely wrong. Let's look at your summary of my position.

The fact that goes with this is that Woodson either has never told him to stop taking threes or has been ineffective in reining Josh's 3pt shooting in.

This is the argument i was trying to make and what i thought Dsinner was saying. I was operating under the assumption that one or the other had to be true. However that is not the case.

Smith shot only 23 three pointers during his rookie year. In his second season he shot only 9 3s total in the 1st four months of the season. Then in March he took 2.9 three pointers per game and in April he took 4.9 three pointers per game.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/spli...006&sType=2

So i think it is clear that Woody kept a lid on Smith shooting 3s for nearly two seasons, then gave him the green light.

Since we know Woody has stopped Smith from shooting 3s in the past the key issue is really what he said at the start of the season. He was quoted directly as saying he isn't telling Smith not to shoot 3s. That is a real head scratcher.