What really kills us.

[Diesel]

I noticed two things about last night's game.

Rio plays excellent defense.

We should have gone after a big before the deadline.

Our starting frontline of Horf and Smoove is just small. Most of the game, we were out of the paint and their bigs were just pushing us.

I believe the Boston broadcaster said that Horf is listed as 6'10 but is more like 6'8. After watching last night, I can't help but agree. Horf is about 6'8-6'9. We're just too short at the C/PF position. Not to mention that we don't make up for it with girth.

When Joe is having a bad game, we can call it. This team needs a second superstar. I'm starting to think getting Bosh in here is not a bad idea. At least you will have a guy who can pick up the scoring while JJ is snoozing.

This offseason, we need to get a defensive PG and a Big... If we go the route of trade, we need to trade for a player who can get us 20 consistently.

[tonegully]

Or we need a small big man coach. In order for us to do damage with Horf at the 5 he needs to develop 2 things IMO.

1. He has to be able to hit that 15-20ft constantly. I mean at a nice clip. I dont need to explain what happens if Horf is a threat from the FT line to the top of the key and 15-20ft on the sides.

2. We he is in the paint. The PUMP FAKE is his best friend. He needs to learn how to play like a Small center. Meaning when you play against someone taller than you they want to block you. If Horf could learn to use the pump fake then either attack while the defender is out of position or jump into him and draw the foul, putting their bigs in foul trouble his life would be alot easier down there in the paint.

[Diesel]

Or we need a small big man coach. In order for us to do damage with Horf at the 5 he needs to develop 2 things IMO.

1. He has to be able to hit that 15-20ft constantly. I mean at a nice clip. I dont need to explain what happens if Horf is a threat from the FT line to the top of the key and 15-20ft on the sides.

2. We he is in the paint. The PUMP FAKE is his best friend. He needs to learn how to play like a Small center. Meaning when you play against someone taller than you they want to block you. If Horf could learn to use the pump fake then either attack while the defender is out of position or jump into him and draw the foul, putting their bigs in foul trouble his life would be alot easier down there in the paint.

It's too hard to dance around the truth.

We need new coaching. Period. I agree with having somebody work with Horf and Smoove... but the deal is that as long as Woody thinks that offense is played from the outside in... and that bigs are used to do "the dirty work" then our bigs don't matter. Smoove, in trying to be more offense, still has a tendency to do outside stuff. Our paint remains empty. Nobody posting up. We just suck.

[DJlaysitup]

I think this quote from SS's AJC article backs up that logic:

"The Celtics whipped the Hawks the same way they have all 11 times they’ve beaten them the past two years: They outworked and outclassed the Hawks when it mattered most.

“We must have given up 20 layups,” Hawks coach Mike Woodson said. “We fought, so I’m not taking anything away from it. But I guarantee you we gave up 20 layups tonight. Not when you’re talking about playoff basketball. The good teams don’t do that.

“The bottom line is they defended that rim and we didn’t. And that was the difference in the game."

++++++++++++++++++++++++

We seem to be mis-matched as far as team-to-coach somewhat. Woody is the self annoited defensive coach and complains about layup drills - yet we start a 6-9 and 1/2 inch center and a 6-8 PF. Granted the 6-8 PF is a great shot blocker...but other teams know that too and design plays (yes Woody, they actually design plays) to keep Smoove out of range. Horford is a tough guy gamer - but sometimes he looks like Davey Crocket at the Alamo out there.

Edited April 4, 2009 by DJlaysitup

[Gray Mule]

:cant believe:

For many years, I have cried, "We desperately need a "Tractor Trailer" type player

who is big enough and strong enough to control the center of the court and put

a stop to this lay up drill we constantly witness.

This is not something that has just happened. Years and years it's been going on.

The Celtics "Big Baby" is this "Tractor Trailer" type player. Too bad we don't have

him or have the recources to get someone like him.

Before the signing deadline, there was an old, big enter who was available who would

have given us limited minutes but apparently we didn't try to sign him or we were

rejected. He's an old Hawk from long ago, Mutumbo. Sure, he's older than dirt and

couldn't play 48 minutes but wouldn't he have nice to have last night when all the

easy layups were sinking our ship.

:help wanted:

[HamHawk]

I couldn't agree more about picking up a big. We sit right now as one of the best teams in the east. . . that isn't one one of the elites. I know we're fighting for a first round home playoff series, but we're only 5 games over .500! If we weren't in the shallow Eastern conference, we wouldn't even be making playoffs!! Here is why getting a dominant man in the paint is a necessity:

1) Just because we have multiple PF that can play and no true center, doesn't mean we can roll one of them over to the 5 and expect him to dominate. Al's a great up and coming player, but he's not a center. We can't beat teams like Boston because we can't compete in the paint.

2) We are a great team. . . . at times. When are those times? When we have players hitting from the outside. If we had someone that could be a true force in the paint, we would be much less streaky. Shots from the paint are higher percentage and if the big man gets defended, that means more open looks for our streaky shooters. That turns into higher percentages all round and more points.

3) Big men make everyone better. . . . Did I already write that once?? Oh, maybe because it's true. Very true.

If we want to be a team that competes with the elites of the East or anyone out west, WE NEED A BIG!!

[tremor]

Theo Ratliff is still one of the best shotblockers in the game. He whooped some *ss tonite.

[DJlaysitup]

If we want to be a team that competes with the elites of the East or anyone out west, WE NEED A BIG!!

A stunning but accurate idea Ham!....Seriously though, when your PF is the size of ther team's SFs - your starting C is the size of most team's PFs - your only real center shoud be a backup - and your depth at the 4/5 spots are little more than fillers?? Whaddaya expect? An agument could be made that this team is actually over-achieving.

I joke about Woody's "D and 3" approach - but what else do we really have? Zaza, Al, and JS all three try hard but none of them really have "go to" post moves at this point that you can count on. Solo isn't there yet (if he ever will be) Morris is nearly non-existant.

[HamHawk]

A stunning but accurate idea Ham!....Seriously though, when your PF is the size of ther team's SFs - your starting C is the size of most team's PFs - your only real center shoud be a backup - and your depth at the 4/5 spots are little more than fillers?? Whaddaya expect? An agument could be made that this team is actually over-achieving.

I joke about Woody's "D and 3" approach - but what else do we really have? Zaza, Al, and JS all three try hard but none of them really have "go to" post moves at this point that you can count on. Solo isn't there yet (if he ever will be) Morris is nearly non-existant.

True post DJ. Everyone says we need G help or that our perimeter shooting is streaky. Guess what happens when you get a true big man that's a good defender and "go to" moves.

A) The other team scores less points because you don't just let them run in with layups all night

B) Hawks score more because there is a presence down low. . . .that also brings OPEN LOOKS outside when the defense squeezes inside. . . . that brings shooting percentages up outside. . . .etc. . . .etc. . . .etc.

=D

[Plainview1981]

I noticed two things about last night's game.

Rio plays excellent defense.

We should have gone after a big before the deadline.

Our starting frontline of Horf and Smoove is just small. Most of the game, we were out of the paint and their bigs were just pushing us.

I believe the Boston broadcaster said that Horf is listed as 6'10 but is more like 6'8. After watching last night, I can't help but agree. Horf is about 6'8-6'9. We're just too short at the C/PF position. Not to mention that we don't make up for it with girth.

When Joe is having a bad game, we can call it. This team needs a second superstar. I'm starting to think getting Bosh in here is not a bad idea. At least you will have a guy who can pick up the scoring while JJ is snoozing.

This offseason, we need to get a defensive PG and a Big... If we go the route of trade, we need to trade for a player who can get us 20 consistently.

The hawks need a superstar, period. Only a fool would believe Joe is a star player. He should have stayed in Phx.

[D.R.P.]

It's too hard to dance around the truth.

We need new coaching. Period. I agree with having somebody work with Horf and Smoove... but the deal is that as long as Woody thinks that offense is played from the outside in... and that bigs are used to do "the dirty work" then our bigs don't matter. Smoove, in trying to be more offense, still has a tendency to do outside stuff. Our paint remains empty. Nobody posting up. We just suck.

But Diesel, doesn't the Hawks offense flow so much smoother without Marvin?

[DJlaysitup]

But Diesel, doesn't the Hawks offense flow so much smoother without Marvin?

In fairness to D...D.R.P....I think his point is that our offense really doesn't work very well with or without Marvin.

[HAWKS1986]

I noticed two things about last night's game.

Rio plays excellent defense.

We should have gone after a big before the deadline.

Our starting frontline of Horf and Smoove is just small. Most of the game, we were out of the paint and their bigs were just pushing us.

I believe the Boston broadcaster said that Horf is listed as 6'10 but is more like 6'8. After watching last night, I can't help but agree. Horf is about 6'8-6'9. We're just too short at the C/PF position. Not to mention that we don't make up for it with girth.

When Joe is having a bad game, we can call it. This team needs a second superstar. I'm starting to think getting Bosh in here is not a bad idea. At least you will have a guy who can pick up the scoring while JJ is snoozing.

This offseason, we need to get a defensive PG and a Big... If we go the route of trade, we need to trade for a player who can get us 20 consistently.

defensive PG and a Big?

How about bring back Dikembe and Mookie? LOL Just kidding..

GM Sund dropped the ball. He should have been more aggressive in trying to acquire Camby, and maybe try to get Will Bynum when he was available....

Bibby got the Hawks to a certain point, but its the law of diminishing returns with the aging Bibby. A second superstar scorer is needed (and its not Marvin)...

[D.R.P.]

In fairness to D...D.R.P....I think his point is that our offense really doesn't work very well with or without Marvin.

That's my point; the offense doesn't flow any better without Marvin.

[DJlaysitup]

defensive PG and a Big?

How about bring back Dikembe and Mookie? LOL Just kidding..

This is a tad OT but in reality the Hawks just p!ssed away too many draft choices when we were bad. Players like Milsap, Gomes, Big Baby and many others while BK took chances on unproven tweeners like Solo and Shelden (put that one on Woody). Even Acie was/is a tweener....a better tweener...but still a tweener. These people don't understand NBA basketball - at least not v. good NBA basketball. You have to have a center. He doesn't have to be the best center - but he has to be competitive and athletic (like Diop versus Zaza). You also have to have a real PG UNLESS you have Kobe Bryant. We don't - so we need a real PG.

Our depth is sad. We have a decent PG (Bibby), a journeyman tweener backing him up (Flipper), a second year guy who has struggled and can't be counted on (Acie), and a guy who doesn't play at all (Speedy). Now that's a mess.

At center we have a solid 6'9 1/2" guy who actually holds his own well for a 2nd year man (but has little offense - AL) and a backup who is basically a half a step above being a BWSITM (big white stiff in the middle - Zaza). Our other depth at big is a joke.

Edited April 5, 2009 by DJlaysitup

[Joker]

The hawks need a superstar, period. Only a fool would believe Joe is a star player. He should have stayed in Phx.

lol, you never surprise me, EVERY team needs a superstar. The problem with the Hawks is there talented enought to win without one but badly need a Center. Al shouldn't play Center, Josh shouldn't start. Those two things are fact. Also the Hawks have no starters in the post outside of them. Zaza is a backup with heart. Solo is.... I wouldn't mind seeing the Hawks try to get Thabeet. We are in bad need of a Center. He would make us not just a player but a serious contender. Interior defense is our need and he is the best available. Unless D12 or Oden is on the block.

[Joker]

In fairness to D...D.R.P....I think his point is that our offense really doesn't work very well with or without Marvin.

Our offense is good for us. Regardless of what everyone on here thinks. Woody isn't good at teaching offense but he isn't awful neither. Our problem is us, were too unbalance. We can defend almost any shot but don't let the other team have a low post player. It's a wrap for us then. We might go to the 2nd round but we are not beating the Cavs.

[Diesel]

That's my point; the offense doesn't flow any better without Marvin.

We stiill don't miss Marvin's contribution.

i.e. having Marvin would not have made a difference.

[tremor]

We need a coach with offensive plan, a guy able to adjust gameplan during the game. Orlando, Boston adjusted in second half, we were firing jumpers hoping for 3 pt streak (like against Lakers).

[Peoriabird]

We stiill don't miss Marvin's contribution.

i.e. having Marvin would not have made a difference.

Will somebody please fix this broken record! :help wanted3: