Woody's offensive indictment...

[AtLaS]

Some of it is certainly the coaches fault but the problem here is that as usual Woody is being given all of the fault. I could understand if our players played the same way all of the time but they are so damned inconsistent that the coach cannot get the full blame. Do you think Woody is coaching differently on the road than at home? His "system" has shown that we can be a dominant home team and I'm certain that it's the same system on the road but compounding the issues with the poor offensive scheme is the FACT that we have some dumb players who far too often lose focus and play out of control. Yes some of that can be attributed to the ISO offense but some of that also has to be attributed to selfish play and stupid mistakes.

As AHF said there is plenty of blame to go around ... and that's not just true of last nights game, it's true of every game for the Hawks.

Do you realize why we are so inconsistent? When all you do is run ISO's (without an absolute superstar) you are going to be inconsistent as hell. If we aren't hitting our tough jumpers, we usually aren't going to win.

I have never seen Tyronn Lue pound the ball and hog the offense as much as he did with Atlanta. When a team has NEVER ONCE attempted to run a structured offense in 5 years, how is that not the coaches fault? Are you serious?

[AtLaS]

Marvin was the guy who would get agressive and get to the line when the offense bogged down. He can't really do that right now or he will just fall on that bad wrist.

The offense really misses Marvin's versitility. He was that scorer who would score inside and out....and the guy who lead the team in FT attempts. Without him our offense is no longer dynamic and is very predictable.

And how was Marvin doing that? We'd give him the ball and back away, letting him go ISO and try to draw a foul. His only other offense is when JJ gets doubled going ISO and kicks it to an open Marvin for a jumper. That's it. That's not a structured offense.

[Admin]

Do you realize why we are so inconsistent? When all you do is run ISO's (without an absolute superstar) you are going to be inconsistent as hell. If we aren't hitting our tough jumpers, we usually aren't going to win.

I have never seen Tyronn Lue pound the ball and hog the offense as much as he did with Atlanta. When a team has NEVER ONCE attempted to run a structured offense in 5 years, how is that not the coaches fault? Are you serious?

NEVER ONCE? Gosh I seem to remember just last series during one of the halftime shows how how Kenny Smith was raving about how we were running AN ACTUAL OFFENSIVE SYSTEM. Is it your assertion that wasn't true? Or do you think that Woody put in an actual offensive system for just that game?

[Admin]

And how was Marvin doing that? We'd give him the ball and back away, letting him go ISO and try to draw a foul. His only other offense is when JJ gets doubled going ISO and kicks it to an open Marvin for a jumper. That's it. That's not a structured offense.

You do realize that for the past decade or so 90% of the players in the NBA are ISO players right? American fundamental team basketball has basically disappeared at the pro level.

[AtLaS]

NEVER ONCE? Gosh I seem to remember just last series during one of the halftime shows how how Kenny Smith was raving about how we were running AN ACTUAL OFFENSIVE SYSTEM. Is it your assertion that wasn't true? Or do you think that Woody put in an actual offensive system for just that game?

Yeah I remember watching that and laughing. We did nothing different. It was just another blowout win where we happened to be hitting our shots.

[Admin]

Yeah I remember watching that and laughing. We did nothing different. It was just another blowout win where we happened to be hitting our shots.

So guys weren't running off of screens in that game? And they never run screens for each other in other games either? We're ALWAYS 100% of the time an ISO offense?

[AtLaS]

You do realize that for the past decade or so 90% of the players in the NBA are ISO players right? American fundamental team basketball has basically disappeared at the pro level.

That is just flat untrue.

Of course every team runs ISO's in the NBA. But, most don't constantly do it the way we do. Usually, a team without an offensive system constantly runs PnR's or runs guys off screens like Rip or Reggie Miller did, and we don't do that. We have a GREAT PnR PG and we don't use him that way.

Miami and Chicago have better efficiency on offense than we do. That's sad.

So guys weren't running off of screens in that game? And they never run screens for each other in other games either? We're ALWAYS 100% of the time an ISO offense?

90% of the time yes. It's pretty obvious.

[exodus]

This from the RealGM Cavs board.

[Admin]

That is just flat untrue.

Of course every team runs ISO's in the NBA. But, most don't constantly do it the way we do. Usually, a team without an offensive system constantly runs PnR's or runs guys off screens like Rip or Reggie Miller did, and we don't do that. We have a GREAT PnR PG and we don't use him that way.

Miami and Chicago have better efficiency on offense than we do. That's sad.

90% of the time yes. It's pretty obvious.

How is it flat untrue? I can't remember which college coach it was but I heard a quote during March madness about he won't even watch NBA basketball because it's so much ISO. He was one of the bigger name coaches but I can't remember who it was off the top of my head. Can you honestly say that offensive systems in the NBA are even remotely as good as those run in college?

[Diesel]

This from the RealGM Cavs board.

This is exactly what happens.

That and the fact that we have no inside scorer. We were better inside last year because Chillz made up some difference. However, now, we have nothing. Smoove just gets tired of playing inside. Horf doesn't have an inside game. Zaza can't get a call inside. At this point, Paul Milsap is looking pretty good as a pickup. I know that Milsap will play inside.

I hear everybody calling for Marvin. Marvin is like decorative towels. Sure, they look pretty in the bathroom... but not functional. You may eventually dry your hands on one, but you will not get your money's worth out of them. Then you go in the linen closet and find a $6.00 towel that works much much better and is more functional. After Last night, any Marvin fan ought to be embarrassed to say his name.

[AtLaS]

I can't remember which college coach it was but I heard a quote during March madness about he won't even watch NBA basketball because it's so much ISO. He was one of the bigger name coaches but I can't remember who it was off the top of my head. Can you honestly say that offensive systems in the NBA are even remotely as good as those run in college?

I remember the quote.

Why are you asking me this question? Of course NBA systems are nowhere near as good as the ones in college. When you have players like Kobe/LeBron/Wade/Paul you don't need one. That's who is on TV most of the time.

How is it flat untrue?

So you think 90% of players in the NBA are ISO oriented? That's just ridiculous. Most teams have about 2 players MAX that are decent ISO players. Most others are completely role players who can't create their own shots at all.

[AtLaS]

This from the RealGM Cavs board.

I'm sure we could find thousands of these..

[exodus]

This is exactly what happens.

That and the fact that we have no inside scorer. We were better inside last year because Chillz made up some difference. However, now, we have nothing. Smoove just gets tired of playing inside. Horf doesn't have an inside game. Zaza can't get a call inside. At this point, Paul Milsap is looking pretty good as a pickup. I know that Milsap will play inside.

I hear everybody calling for Marvin. Marvin is like decorative towels. Sure, they look pretty in the bathroom... but not functional. You may eventually dry your hands on one, but you will not get your money's worth out of them. Then you go in the linen closet and find a $6.00 towel that works much much better and is more functional. After Last night, any Marvin fan ought to be embarrassed to say his name.

Nice hijack attempt. Sorry but this thread isn't about Marvin. maybe you should start another Marvin hate thread. I am sure that will make you feel better.

Marvin only played 12 minutes last night and is obviously still hurting. Anyone who saw his face when he landed on his wrist could see that.

[AtLaS]

That and the fact that we have no inside scorer.

Smith is an elite inside scorer. I think it's about time we started realizing that. His post game has tremendously improved and he's always been a good driver straight to the basket. He scores more than Amare and Boozer inside on just as good of percentages. The problem is our coach won't force him to stop shooting jump shots.

At this point, Paul Milsap is looking pretty good as a pickup. I know that Milsap will play inside.

Milsap plays in an offensive system and constantly gets easy baskets off of pick and rolls with Deron. He is no better than Horford offensively. He's got a nice midrange jumper and can finish inside. That's it.

I hear everybody calling for Marvin. Marvin is like decorative towels. Sure, they look pretty in the bathroom... but not functional. You may eventually dry your hands on one, but you will not get your money's worth out of them. Then you go in the linen closet and find a $6.00 towel that works much much better and is more functional. After Last night, any Marvin fan ought to be embarrassed to say his name.

I think it's ridiculous to say we don't miss Marvin. Not having him drastically reduces our depth. It takes away another three point shooter. It takes away our leading FT man, who also shoots 80+% from the line. It takes away a solid defender.

It's naive to bash Marvin for last nights game considering he hasn't played in forever.

[JackB1]

The fact that we are ranked 24th in "pace' is disgraceful with all the ability to run this team has.

Why isn't Woodson pushing this team to run more? We see it now and then but it goes away.

The whole NBA knows our half court offense is horrible and that we excel in transition and yet,

we dont try and play that way more often. Confusing.

[AtLaS]

Another gem...

just my opinion, but the hawks have no shot; inconsistent defensively, atrocious offensively. they look like strangers sometimes on the court, almost like a random pickup squad. if that's woodson's fault, he should've been let go a long time ago; but i'll add this: the hawks NEXT coach is going to have his hands full with this bunch. i can't fathom a coach with any rep/cred standing for what the hawks do offensively.

They just keep coming.

[Dsinner]

Some of it is certainly the coaches fault but the problem here is that as usual Woody is being given all of the fault. I could understand if our players played the same way all of the time but they are so damned inconsistent that the coach cannot get the full blame. Do you think Woody is coaching differently on the road than at home? His "system" has shown that we can be a dominant home team and I'm certain that it's the same system on the road but compounding the issues with the poor offensive scheme is the FACT that we have some dumb players who far too often lose focus and play out of control. Yes some of that can be attributed to the ISO offense but some of that also has to be attributed to selfish play and stupid mistakes.

As AHF said there is plenty of blame to go around ... and that's not just true of last nights game, it's true of every game for the Hawks.

One MAJOR point you are missing when you blame the players is that Woody basically taught these young players their NBA game. Our core hasn't known anything but Woody. So if you're going to blame the players for their play you still have to at least partially attribute that to Woody as well.

[HawksBalla]

Part of the problem for our Pace ranking is the fact that Bibby is slow and cant take the ball to the hoop. But I still believe it falls on Woodson's joke of an offense.

The bummer is that there is NO WAY we get rid of Woodson. You dont fire the coach that got you to the 2nd round for the first time in ten years. Especially not with us owing him another year on his contract. For better or worse (mostly worse), we're stuck with him.

[bronnt]

Cleveland runs lot of ISOs, also. But there's two fundamental differences.

1) LeBron really CAN get anything he wants with the ball because he's too big, too strong, too fast.

2) Cleveland doesn't stand around and watch. They remain involved in the offense on LeBron isolation plays, moving, cutting, finding open spaces.

[AHF]

Part of the problem for our Pace ranking is the fact that Bibby is slow and cant take the ball to the hoop. But I still believe it falls on Woodson's joke of an offense.

The bummer is that there is NO WAY we get rid of Woodson. You dont fire the coach that got you to the 2nd round for the first time in ten years. Especially not with us owing him another year on his contract. For better or worse (mostly worse), we're stuck with him.

Other teams fire coaches who produce the best records in basketball so I would say the ASG won't do it, but other teams might decide they aren't satisfied with the direction of the team and would not use this year's success as the be-all, end-all barameter. A team starting the #2, #12, #2, #17 and #3 picks in the draft should be able to make it to the second round of the playoffs if the players are at all legit.