Smoove's bitching

[Plastic Man]

Better than Jordan??? You have to be kidding me. The NBA was much better in the 80s and 90s. The difference now is the game is officiated toward perimeter players. I wouldn't even put lebron in top 10 yet as a player. Is he talented yes but until lebron wins 6 rings im not giving him that. I mean lets be serious here Jordan was beating JOHN STOCKTON and KARL MALONE in finals. He got his first NBA chapionship agaisnt who? MAGIC JOHNSON and the Lakers. Right now in the nba the closest talent we have is Kobe! The point im making is Jordan was leading the bulls to wins agaisnt great players and great teams. To sit her and make the statement that lebron is better than jordan, you must not have been old enough to see those games

i don't expect anyone to agree with me but that's ok. mj was pampered by the league and favored by the media. LBJ is already a better all-around scorer, defender, rebounder, passer but he doesn't have any rings so i guess bob horry is BY FAR better than LBJ. whateva.

[macdaddy]

Lebron is annoying to me but I like his game. Kobe could hardly get his team in the playoffs without some help and Lebron is taking a fairly thin team probably to the finals. Seems like the Hawks aren't being physical enough though. That used to bug me with Jordan too. At what point is someone going to knock him on his *ss. If you're going to foul make it count. They hammer other players but never the 'greats'. If the Hawks have any pride they will make the Cavs feel this next game. Even if the Hawks lose.

[Diesel]

Honestly, LBJ is the best player in the NBA. Even if he didn't get the calls, he'd still be dominating. I guess it's time to realize that the guy wearing 23 for the wine and gold really is our generation's Jordan.

I do agree with the fact that Kobe gets little-to-no help from the refs, and that's why I definitely appreciate his ability. He doesn't wait for refs to bail him out like Wade, the guy is legitimately great.

I think you have to realize how knowing you have the calls affects or effects how aggressively you play! The difference between Lebron and Joe is the fact that Lebron has the confidence to know that he can go down the lane at will and dunk on the competition and not be called for a charge doing it. Seriously, Lebron is playing football out there and he has on the yellow Jersey. What's a team supposed to do to stop him? I want to see what happens when he plays tougher competition than us. Orlando or Boston. then LAL or Denver or Houston... what will happen then? Will he still be given the green light to run and jump into people? Will he still b*tch after ever foul he's called for?

Yesterday, I watched the Lakers play, Kobe was fouled. Refs didn't call it. Call said something to d*ck B. and he was hit with a technical. I watched us play Cleveland, Lebron Bitched at d*ck B. and nothing. If you want the appearance of a level playing field, you have to start by calling the games evenly.

[Diesel]

i don't expect anyone to agree with me but that's ok. mj was pampered by the league and favored by the media. LBJ is already a better all-around scorer, defender, rebounder, passer but he doesn't have any rings so i guess bob horry is BY FAR better than LBJ. whateva.

The comparison of Jordan vs. James ends at Pampering by the refs. The truth is that the game has changed a lot between these two players... which is what makes Jordan better.

go into the recesses of your mind for a moment (but continue reading).

Imagine Lebron James playing against:

Pat Ewing, Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason, John Starks, and Mark Jackson.

Now that you realize how much James would be picking himself off the floor.

Imagine Lebron James playing against:

Smits, The Davis brothers, Reggie, McKey, and Mark Jackson.

Imagine Lebron playing against

Karl Malone, Stockton, Hornacek, Byron

Imagine Lebron playing against:

Da Admiral, Duncan, Ellie, Johnson,

How about:

Barkley, Johnson, Marjle,

or

Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Rambis,

or

Bird, McHale, Parrish

Or

Isiah, Dumars, Aguire, Mahorn, Lambeer, Buddha

Worst...

Imagine Lebron playing against:

Jordan, Pippen, Rodman.

You can talk about how great Lebron is against modern day competition, but the truth is that competition has been watered down, the rules have been changed to help the ball handler, the toughness of the league is gone.

[Diesel]

if Scottie Pippen blows out his knee in the early 90's then MJ doesn't get 6 rings.

Well, I agree with what you're saying (a little) but I don't know about this pippen statement. I think that Pip could have been easily replaced. In fact, Pip went on to a nonstellar career after Jordan. I think that the coaching and the talent mix was right, but Jordan was definitely the engine that drove that train.

Now, when you talk about GOAT...

Why does nobody like to mention Bill Russell?

Probably the best student of the game. Problem the most aggressive player that the game has ever seen. Played under racial scrutiny and at the same time played during the most competitive time in league history. And with all that, he sports 11 rings.

[AHF]

Now, when you talk about GOAT...

Why does nobody like to mention Bill Russell?

Probably the best student of the game. Problem the most aggressive player that the game has ever seen. Played under racial scrutiny and at the same time played during the most competitive time in league history. And with all that, he sports 11 rings.

Russell is a top guy for me as an individual player. He is the greatest winner of all time and would dominate today if he played but he had the benefit in terms of racking up championships of playing with a slew of HOFers and a coach who was way ahead of his time. Russell is truly great, greater than anyone playing the game today to this point in their career, but doesn't surpass Jordan for me.

Off the court, Russell also really impresses with his interviews. He seems to be a very intelligent and reflective person. Very impressive.

[Diesel]

Russell is a top guy for me as an individual player. He is the greatest winner of all time and would dominate today if he played but he had the benefit in terms of racking up championships of playing with a slew of HOFers and a coach who was way ahead of his time. Russell is truly great, greater than anyone playing the game today to this point in their career, but doesn't surpass Jordan for me.

Off the court, Russell also really impresses with his interviews. He seems to be a very intelligent and reflective person. Very impressive.

Russell vs. Jordan is a very interesting comparison. Aside from playing different positions, this is how I view it....

Russell was probably the only guy in the league to ever play that could match Jordan's competitiveness. I hear about Kobe and Lebron... but neither or nearly as competitive as Jordan. You never had to ask about Killer instinct with Jordan or with Russell...

here's the thing.

If you plug Jordan onto another team... let's say a nonplayoff team. Could he take them to the championship?

Same thing with Russell, put him on a none playoff team of his day. Could he have taken them to the championship?

The thing about Russell is that Russell won 11 championships. That means that he was on both sets of Boston championship teams. What I mean is that while Russell remained the same, the team around him changed. We haven't had a chance to see Jordan without Pippen.

Next up: Jordan vs. Russell vs. Abdul-Jabber

Edited May 11, 2009 by Diesel

[AHF]

I don't disagree with much, but I don't think Russell playing with two groups is that big a thing since the talent was always exceptional:

Bob Cousy, HOF

Tom Heinsohn, HOF

Andy Phillip, HOF

Frank Ramsey, HOF

Arnie Risen, HOF

Bill Sharman, HOF

Sam Jones, HOF

K.C. Jones, HOF

John Havlicek, HOF

Clyde Lovellette, HOF

Bailey Howell, HOF

That is a heck of a lot of talent Russell enjoyed. He was the most important player of all those guys, though, and surely that HOF total is higher because of him. That said, Jordan basically has:

Scottie Pippen

and possibly Dennis Rodman for that list.

Kareem had some nice HOF talent, too:

Oscar Robertson

Magic Johnson

James Worthy

Gail Goodrich

Adreian Dantley

Bob McAdoo

Nobody wins those titles by themselves.

[DrReality]

I dunno Doc - I still think Stern is fixing this thing against us - I just can't figure out how he manages to guide in those three point shots. Probably the result of some NASA/CIA project that makes one guy score threes while the other team goes 4-19 early - maybe a magnetic/force field deal. You never can tell about those CIA spooks.

Personally I think all Hawks fans should bring magnets to the next game to mess up the "force"...then we will have a level playing field with these Cleveland game riggers. ....or maybe we should fire Woody and get a real NBA offense instead of this AAU shoot-around ISO junk.

Anyway - vacation next week :blink: .....off to Roswell!!

You are a funny DJ. The magnets are worth a try. Nothing else has worked.

[Diesel]

I don't disagree with much, but I don't think Russell playing with two groups is that big a thing since the talent was always exceptional:

Bob Cousy, HOF

Tom Heinsohn, HOF

Andy Phillip, HOF

Frank Ramsey, HOF

Arnie Risen, HOF

Bill Sharman, HOF

Sam Jones, HOF

K.C. Jones, HOF

John Havlicek, HOF

Clyde Lovellette, HOF

Bailey Howell, HOF

That is a heck of a lot of talent Russell enjoyed. He was the most important player of all those guys, though, and surely that HOF total is higher because of him. That said, Jordan basically has:

Scottie Pippen

and possibly Dennis Rodman for that list.

Kareem had some nice HOF talent, too:

Oscar Robertson

Magic Johnson

James Worthy

Gail Goodrich

Adreian Dantley

Bob McAdoo

Nobody wins those titles by themselves.

My memory might be bad, but I don't remember Kareem and Gail Goodrich being on a championship team together. Neither do I remember AD being on his championship team.

I remember Michael Cooper, Jamaal Wilks and AC Green and Norm Nixon....

[AtLaS]

Wasn't Russell winning the championship when there were only about 8 teams in the league? I just can't put him over MJ since that was the case.

Also, since players were severely underpaid back then and players often had offseason jobs, the best talent available did not always play in the league since there were little monetary incentives.

Russell belongs in the top 5, but definitely not over MJ IMO.

[AHF]

My memory might be bad, but I don't remember Kareem and Gail Goodrich being on a championship team together. Neither do I remember AD being on his championship team.

I remember Michael Cooper, Jamaal Wilks and AC Green and Norm Nixon....

You are right about the championship years. I was just pointing out what HOF support each guy had during their career at being able to make a run at a championship. Had Jordan played with Tim Duncan for a year and they failed to win a championship, I would have listed Duncan on the list because they had their shot together.

[Diesel]

Wasn't Russell winning the championship when there were only about 8 teams in the league? I just can't put him over MJ since that was the case.

Also, since players were severely underpaid back then and players often had offseason jobs, the best talent available did not always play in the league since there were little monetary incentives.

Russell belongs in the top 5, but definitely not over MJ IMO.

Where do you think that the competition is the best...

8 teams or 30 teams?

[AtLaS]

Where do you think that the competition is the best...

8 teams or 30 teams?

So if all teams are better in an 8 team league, wouldn't that mean Russell's team was better as well? So you're saying that if Russell was in a 30 team league and had a much worse team around him that he would have just as easily won 11 titles?

Also, since players were so underpaid back then, many of the greatest players didn't even play since they could barely make a living by playing in the NBA.

[AHF]

Also, since players were so underpaid back then, many of the greatest players didn't even play since they could barely make a living by playing in the NBA.

Just curious....who are you thinking about among the many greatest players who didn't play in the NBA?

[AtLaS]

Just curious....who are you thinking about among the many greatest players who didn't play in the NBA?

I definitely misused my words there. My point was that there was a lot less incentive to become a great basketball player in those days since there was such a small reward for doing so. If the NBA suddenly started paying 30K per year to it's best players, the league's talent level would drop immensely. But, I guess that's a different argument.

[AHF]

I definitely misused my words there. My point was that there was a lot less incentive to become a great basketball player in those days since there was such a small reward for doing so. If the NBA suddenly started paying 30K per year to it's best players, the league's talent level would drop immensely. But, I guess that's a different argument.

I think that there is a certaine percentage of domestic players for whom that was the case but think it is MUCH more the case for international players like Tony Parker, Yao Ming, Pau Gasol, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, etc. who never picked up the game at that point and came to the US due to $$ and more so cultre at that point.

I do think that is much more the case for domestic players over the years who played some other sport rather than soccer but that is probably more the case due to culture than $$, IMO.