Whats the REAL reason Nique Got traded?

[Sothron]

You're still funny. Next time, be willing to do homework...

And More research...

BTW, I hope you noticed that both Atlanta and Detroit were willing to offer 5 year 50 Million dollar deals at the time...

More research.

Here's part of a commentary about Bickerstaff botching the Mutombo deal.

One last nail for your coffin...

I love how you come on here with no research, making claims and then you say...

"What I say still stands"

Notice how my story checks out!! Long and Augmon traded to Detroit for Picks... That's what made the room for us to get Deke.

This is not the Busch League Ron!!!

Do your homework before you try changing history.

I see Heavy D still hasn't changed: obfuscate, obfuscate, obfuscate. Oh here is the obligatory link: Obfuscate

Your post and links don't invalidate anything I wrote. We still would have had Nique or Manning's salary on the books and that would have not left enough room to sign Deke. It doesn't matter if Long and Augmon got traded, their salaries would haven't equaled what Nique or Manning's would have been. Nique was already unhappy with his current deal and he wanted a huge contract (for those times) even though he was 34: Nique wants a deal

The point is if we had those salaries from either man it would have precluded us from signing Deke.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The 88 team that lost to Boston was so, so, so much better than that 94 team. The teams with Mookie, Smitty, Deke and Laettner were also better than the 94 team. That 94 team had no chance vs Indiana and would have got swept by the Knicks and humiliated by the Rockets.

I disagree totally. Now I'll admit that Nique was HIGHLY SCHIZOPHRENIC as a player during that season. He'd have games in which he'd look like the best player in the league. Almost unstoppable.

Then he'd have games in which he would be straight garbage, and still jack up shots. Come to think of it, the best way to describe his last season in ATL, would be to compare him to Gilbert Arenas, with his off and on azz.

But even when he had an off night, the Hawks were still able to overcome his horrible shooting at times, because the team was solid defensively. Not great, but solid.

The biggest thing with losing Nique, is that we lost the one offensive player that could score in a number of ways, at almost anytime we wanted to.

Even though he'd lost some of his explosiveness, he still had a knack of getting to the FT line. And that season, he shot a whopping 85% at the line.

Nique, while nowhere near a great 3-point shooter that year ( 31% ), was still a guy that you had to accont for on the outside. When the Hawks traded him, it only left us with 2 legit shooters from the arc ( Mookie and Ehlo ). Ish, they were the ONLY guys shooting 3's.

Nique was also a guy, because of his versatility on offense, that you had to double team at times, especially when he has a smaller 3 posted on the block, or a slower big man trying to guard him out on the perimeter.

And I'm going to give Nique the benefit of the doubt, from an intangible standpoint. Nique was 34 at the time he got traded. And he was playing on the best team he'd played on in about 6 years. I'm thinking that Nique would've really elevated his level of play during the playoffs, because this would be essentially his last shot to win a title.

We'd had trouble with Indy that year, so they may have well beat us in that 2nd round. But the Knicks sweeping us? Hell no. We split the season series 2 - 2 that year. ( Nique and Manning each had 1 win vs the Knicks ) We matched up pretty well with the Knicks. And once again, we were a DOMINANT HOME TEAM that year.

If anything, if we kept Nique, we'd swept the Heat ( because with Nique, we were 2 - 0 against that team ) . . and maybe had been up 2 - 0 against the Pacers, which may have given us some room for error when Willis got hurt during that series.

It's funny. We lose 5 home games total that year ( the last one being when Nique came back to ATL and dropped 36 on us, while Manning scored 6 whopping points. ) But once the playoffs came around, we drop BOTH Game 1's, and lost control of both series.

Babcock betrayed Nique with that trade, because he denied him a shot at a title for all the years of service he'd given ATL. And he betrayed the fans with that move as well, by trading the most popular player in franchise history for some complimentary azz punk.

It's an unforgivable sin, if you ask me. And I still get mad every time I think about that ish.

Edited May 17, 2009 by northcyde

[Diesel]

Your post and links don't invalidate anything I wrote. We still would have had Nique or Manning's salary on the books and that would have not left enough room to sign Deke. It doesn't matter if Long and Augmon got traded, their salaries would haven't equaled what Nique or Manning's would have been. Nique was already unhappy with his current deal and he wanted a huge contract (for those times) even though he was 34: Nique wants a deal

The point is if we had those salaries from either man it would have precluded us from signing Deke.

Sure, we would have had Nique or Manning's salary on the books... but that also means that we would not have had Kenny Norman's salary on the books. Let me show you again how it all worked out. Our knee jerk reaction to losing Manning was signing Norman... a 12 pt, 6 rb per game PF. We traded Capspace and Roy Hinson (I believe). The Bucks made so much of a savings in trading away Norman for our capspace that the Bucks were able to go out and sign Big Dog for $100 Million dollars.

Think about that... Our capspace helped Milwaukee get the room to sign a 100 million dollar deal. Surely, had we signed Manning, We would not have traded for Norman.... And the fact that we were able to sign DEKE with Norman on the books says to us all that we could have had Deke with Manning on the books. This is not the Busch league. If you want to make up stuff, make up stuff about things that are not already documented... You know the deal. These facts are kicking your arse... Go get a source or something if you want to continue to make up stuff..

[Diesel]

I disagree totally. Now I'll admit that Nique was HIGHLY SCHIZOPHRENIC as a player during that season. He'd have games in which he'd look like the best player in the league. Almost unstoppable.

Then he'd have games in which he would be straight garbage, and still jack up shots. Come to think of it, the best way to describe his last season in ATL, would be to compare him to Gilbert Arenas, with his off and on azz.

But even when he had an off night, the Hawks were still able to overcome his horrible shooting at times, because the team was solid defensively. Not great, but solid.

The biggest thing with losing Nique, is that we lost the one offensive player that could score in a number of ways, at almost anytime we wanted to.

Even though he'd lost some of his explosiveness, he still had a knack of getting to the FT line. And that season, he shot a whopping 85% at the line.

Nique, while nowhere near a great 3-point shooter that year ( 31% ), was still a guy that you had to accont for on the outside. When the Hawks traded him, it only left us with 2 legit shooters from the arc ( Mookie and Ehlo ). Ish, they were the ONLY guys shooting 3's.

Nique was also a guy, because of his versatility on offense, that you had to double team at times, especially when he has a smaller 3 posted on the block, or a slower big man trying to guard him out on the perimeter.

And I'm going to give Nique the benefit of the doubt, from an intangible standpoint. Nique was 34 at the time he got traded. And he was playing on the best team he'd played on in about 6 years. I'm thinking that Nique would've really elevated his level of play during the playoffs, because this would be essentially his last shot to win a title.

We'd had trouble with Indy that year, so they may have well beat us in that 2nd round. But the Knicks sweeping us? Hell no. We split the season series 2 - 2 that year. ( Nique and Manning each had 1 win vs the Knicks ) We matched up pretty well with the Knicks. And once again, we were a DOMINANT HOME TEAM that year.

If anything, if we kept Nique, we'd swept the Heat ( because with Nique, we were 2 - 0 against that team ) . . and maybe had been up 2 - 0 against the Pacers, which may have given us some room for error when Willis got hurt during that series.

It's funny. We lose 5 home games total that year ( the last one being when Nique came back to ATL and dropped 36 on us, while Manning scored 6 whopping points. ) But once the playoffs came around, we drop BOTH Game 1's, and lost control of both series.

Babcock betrayed Nique with that trade, because he denied him a shot at a title for all the years of service he'd given ATL. And he betrayed the fans with that move as well, by trading the most popular player in franchise history for some complimentary azz punk.

It's an unforgivable sin, if you ask me. And I still get mad every time I think about that ish.

You are on the button... and IN several ways, I think we have to be cautious of not making the same mistakes with Joe or Smoove. I remember it like it was yesterday... the Danny Manning fiasco. Not that Danny couldn't be more than another player on the floor... but that when we finally went to negotiate with Manning and gave him more than any team could offer (5 Million, which was a lot back then). He pissed on our money, jetted to Phoenix and said " the Hawks are not good enough to win a championship and I want to play for Championship contenders.". That and trading Nique when he could have gone pissed me off. Danny Manning had an Marvin Williams like undervalue of himself in that statement. IF he didn't believe that we could win 57 again, then what does that say about what he believed about his own abilities? We had the coaching. We had the defense. We had the help in Mookie and Willis. SO really what this idiot was saying is that with him, we were not good enough. I'm glad he went to Phoenix and never won a championship. He's a sorry player and I hate that Babcock traded our franchise player for him... You know even thought it's 15 years later, we really haven't recovered from that dumb GM move.

[NJHAWK]

1988 PG: Doc Rivers SG: Randy Whitman C: Tree Rollins SF: Nique at 28 PF: Willis KEy reserves Spud Webb, John Battle, Cliff Levinsgton, Antoine Carr

1998 PG: Mookie SG: Smitty C: Deke SF: Phonze PF: Laettner Key Reserves: Grant Long, Ty Corbin, Alan Henderson ( back when he wore a uni and not a suit)

1994: PG: Mookie SG: Augman C: Koncak SF: Nique at 34 PF: Willis Key Resrves: Ehlo,

:write a letter: I dont get how anybody can even fathom that the 94 team is #1 on this list. I cant even see putting them #2.

[Sothron]

Sure, we would have had Nique or Manning's salary on the books... but that also means that we would not have had Kenny Norman's salary on the books. Let me show you again how it all worked out. Our knee jerk reaction to losing Manning was signing Norman... a 12 pt, 6 rb per game PF. We traded Capspace and Roy Hinson (I believe). The Bucks made so much of a savings in trading away Norman for our capspace that the Bucks were able to go out and sign Big Dog for $100 Million dollars.

Think about that... Our capspace helped Milwaukee get the room to sign a 100 million dollar deal. Surely, had we signed Manning, We would not have traded for Norman.... And the fact that we were able to sign DEKE with Norman on the books says to us all that we could have had Deke with Manning on the books. This is not the Busch league. If you want to make up stuff, make up stuff about things that are not already documented... You know the deal. These facts are kicking your arse... Go get a source or something if you want to continue to make up stuff..

Again, its like talking to a brick wall here. Its amazing how two plus years later the same guy is still the same guy. Kinda funny in a sad way.

I don't care about Norman. Manning or Nique would have had a lot more money on the books than the Snake. If we had kept either one we probably (and we still can't say for certain) would have not signed him but WE STILL WOULD HAVE HAD MORE MONEY TIED UP. Its really not that hard guy. Either Manning or Nique on our team when Deke is a free agent means we wouldn't have had the space available to give him the deal he was going to get.

[Diesel]

1988 PG: Doc Rivers SG: Randy Whitman C: Tree Rollins SF: Nique at 28 PF: Willis KEy reserves Spud Webb, John Battle, Cliff Levinsgton, Antoine Carr

1998 PG: Mookie SG: Smitty C: Deke SF: Phonze PF: Laettner Key Reserves: Grant Long, Ty Corbin, Alan Henderson ( back when he wore a uni and not a suit)

1994: PG: Mookie SG: Augman C: Koncak SF: Nique at 34 PF: Willis Key Resrves: Ehlo,

:write a letter: I dont get how anybody can even fathom that the 94 team is #1 on this list. I cant even see putting them #2.

I think you have to look at circumstance. That 1998 team looks really good on paper. The problems:

1. Phonze was always hurt.

2. I didn't think we had Laettner and Deke at the same time?

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Laettner playing Smits then Shaq in the playoffs Then we sending Laettner away in leui of Hendu.... then the next year us getting Deke.

The 1988 team was really good.

There were two endcappers however. The 1994 team was the best defensive team of the lot. Even without a dominant big. Mookie was in his prime. Augmon was a freakin beast (defensively). Willis wasn't so bad. In the later versions, we had Smitty and I love SMitty, but Smitty was not the defensive stalwart that we would have liked complimenting Deke and Mook. BTW, Nique at 34 was the first Nique that had ever worked out. I remember him saying that when he tore his Achilles, as part of his rehab, he begin to do weight training. Thing is that it made him a better player than Nique at 32. It's unfortunate that he had picked up the habit of shooting that 3. Lastly, the 1994 Hawks didn't have to worry about Jordan. He was off in Birmingham, playing baseball.

[Diesel]

Again, its like talking to a brick wall here. Its amazing how two plus years later the same guy is still the same guy. Kinda funny in a sad way.

I don't care about Norman. Manning or Nique would have had a lot more money on the books than the Snake. If we had kept either one we probably (and we still can't say for certain) would have not signed him but WE STILL WOULD HAVE HAD MORE MONEY TIED UP. Its really not that hard guy. Either Manning or Nique on our team when Deke is a free agent means we wouldn't have had the space available to give him the deal he was going to get.

Oh, the make up artist is back.

Facts are that we only offered Manning 5 million dollars.

Fact is that we took on Snake's contract of 2.633 million and Babcock prorated it for one year to make the salary work so Snake was making ~3.4 Million per. 1.6 Million was not going to stop us from getting Deke. Not when we basically turned over our whole roster. Deke came in with 7 other new players.

[NJHAWK]

1. Phonze was always hurt.

2. I didn't think we had Laettner and Deke at the same time?

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember Laettner playing Smits then Shaq in the playoffs Then we sending Laettner away in leui of Hendu.... then the next year us getting Deke.

Yeah we had Laettner and Deke together with Hendo coming off the bench and it was a dam good combo when Laettner had his head on staright. That series vs Shaq came before we signed Deke, I believe DEKE signed with us that offseason after the Orlando 5 game beat down. On a side note eventually Hendu was outplaying Laettner so bad a year or two after we got Deke that Christian was on the trade block at the deadline. I remember when Babcock was trying hard to send Laettner to Phoenix for a then relativly unknown Steve Nash. Can you imagine if that deal got done.

[NJHAWK]

I think you have to look at circumstance. That 1998 team looks really good on paper. The problems:

1. Phonze was always hurt.

Yeah but Tyrone Corbin and Grant Long were perfect role players in the starting 5 when needed. Ultimate team player 1 and Ultimate team player 2. lol

[NJHAWK]

There were two endcappers however. The 1994 team was the best defensive team of the lot. Even without a dominant big. Mookie was in his prime. Augmon was a freakin beast (defensively). Willis wasn't so bad. In the later versions, we had Smitty and I love SMitty, but Smitty was not the defensive stalwart that we would have liked complimenting Deke and Mook. BTW, Nique at 34 was the first Nique that had ever worked out. I remember him saying that when he tore his Achilles, as part of his rehab, he begin to do weight training. Thing is that it made him a better player than Nique at 32. It's unfortunate that he had picked up the habit of shooting that 3. Lastly, the 1994 Hawks didn't have to worry about Jordan. He was off in Birmingham, playing baseball.

That 94 team just didnt have the talent to even compete with the 5th seeded Pacers. It was a sweet 1st season under Lenny but I think it was the product of the energy of it being his 1st year here. Nique was nowhere near the player he was in 88 and Augmon was a liability on offense and was so bad guarding Miller that Lenny often went to Ehlo. Its nice folklore to think we could have won a title if Babcock didnt trade Nique but I think we would have ended up right where we did, smoked by the Pacers. AGAIN I HATE NIQUE GETTING TRADED ESPECIALLY FOR MANNING but I just dont think that team had the talent. It was more a product of regular season Lenny ball just like his Cav teams that could win alot in the regular season playing d but couldnt win in the playoffs when teams played hard every night.

[Diesel]

That 94 team just didnt have the talent to even compete with the 5th seeded Pacers. It was a sweet 1st season under Lenny but I think it was the product of the energy of it being his 1st year here. Nique was nowhere near the player he was in 88 and Augmon was a liability on offense and was so bad guarding Miller that Lenny often went to Ehlo. Its nice folklore to think we could have won a title if Babcock didnt trade Nique but I think we would have ended up right where we did, smoked by the Pacers. AGAIN I HATE NIQUE GETTING TRADED ESPECIALLY FOR MANNING but I just dont think that team had the talent. It was more a product of regular season Lenny ball just like his Cav teams that could win alot in the regular season playing d but couldnt win in the playoffs when teams played hard every night.

Before Manning, the talent was there. We were 2-2 vs. the Pacers with Nique. We took them to game 6. Let's not sell Reggie and company short. They swept the Magic, they beat us in 6 and they took the Knicks to 7 games. Had we had Nique, we would have beaten them. No way we lose in the OMNI to the pacers.

Game 1

[PureGreatness]

so it had nothing to do with fred tokars?

[NJHAWK]

Before Manning, the talent was there. We were 2-2 vs. the Pacers with Nique. We took them to game 6. Let's not sell Reggie and company short. They swept the Magic, they beat us in 6 and they took the Knicks to 7 games. Had we had Nique, we would have beaten them. No way we lose in the OMNI to the pacers.

Game 1

There are only 3 legit nba starters on that team. Nique, Willis and Mookie.

Edited May 18, 2009 by NJHAWK

[Diesel]

so it had nothing to do with fred tokars?

I remember the Tokars case, a little, but didn't that come to Light after Nique? Hawks would have had to have previous knowledge. Furthermore, the Hawks turned their blind eye for all those years that Nique operated Dominique's Downtown. If that was the most rouchy...gansta haven. I swear I saw Charles Smith and the girl from Teen Summit (Lisa) having relations in a booth there one night.

[Diesel]

There are only 3 legit nba starters on that team. Nique, Willis and Mookie.

Our Hawks teams under Lenny were not star driven. He got more out of guys like Ehlo, Recasner, Augmon, Corbin, Long, etc than he did out of star guys like Big Dog. That's one of the best things about a motion offense. As long as you're willing to play your role, you can be successful. For that time the 94 team had some guys who were very useful, just not house hold names.

Still, I think you ignore the biggest factor in this discussion.

NO JORDAN.

Even when we had that 1996 team... we got smacked down by Jordan in the 2nd round. The window had passed.

[PureGreatness]

I remember the Tokars case, a little, but didn't that come to Light after Nique? Hawks would have had to have previous knowledge. Furthermore, the Hawks turned their blind eye for all those years that Nique operated Dominique's Downtown. If that was the most rouchy...gansta haven. I swear I saw Charles Smith and the girl from Teen Summit (Lisa) having relations in a booth there one night.

smith and lisa are married.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

There are only 3 legit nba starters on that team. Nique, Willis and Mookie.

Mookie made the All-Star team: 13.8 ppg . . 9.7 asst . . 5.2 rebs . . 2.6 stls

Willis had a very good year: 19.1 ppg . . 12 rebs

And Nique, while inconsistent, was still very good: 24.4 ppg . . 6.2 rebs

Augmon and Ehlo were very good on the ball defenders

The rest of the team filled in where they were needed.

That was a TEAM. They were solid all around. If we had a decent center that year, we were easily a title contender. Ish . . we still were a title contender, because all of those teams had problems with us.

[NJHAWK]

Our Hawks teams under Lenny were not star driven. He got more out of guys like Ehlo, Recasner, Augmon, Corbin, Long, etc than he did out of star guys like Big Dog. That's one of the best things about a motion offense. As long as you're willing to play your role, you can be successful. For that time the 94 team had some guys who were very useful, just not house hold names.

Still, I think you ignore the biggest factor in this discussion.

NO JORDAN.

Even when we had that 1996 team... we got smacked down by Jordan in the 2nd round. The window had passed.

Corbin Recassner and Long werent on that 94 team. Augmon had to start and so did Koncak. 2 guys who were born bench players. Reggie Miller was not Jordon but he looked like him in that playoffs. I dont think even Jordon could have did what Miller did to the Knicks in that legendary game 5 Spike Lee " choke " game. Even if the Hawks had Nique and were allowed to by pass the East playoffs and go staright to the finals I got one thing to say Hakeem vs Koncak. Dream all you guys want but its just a myth and a legend because that team was a 2nd round knockout team just like most Hawk playoff teams. 88 was our best shot at the ECF because we almost had game 6 vs Boston. The Bad Boys would have beat us but it was still our best shot to get to the E.C. finals and there was no Jordon, at least not left in the playoffs.

[NJHAWK]

Maybe its because I live in NJ but I remember very well that the national consensus of that #1 seeded Hawks team in 94 was that it was indeed smoke and mirrors and nobody thought they would come out of the east even when Nique was still there. They just didnt have the playoff pieces. It was another Lenny Wilkens regular season coaching spectacular.