Why we should like Woody AND why we shouldn't?

[JTB]

Im not like everybody who just dislike woody all togeather. There are things i like about his coaching and there are things i dont like. Now this is REAL truth about WOODY even haterz should agree on. Check it out:

Positives

1.Has improved every year since he has been the hawks coach, even if the wins weren't by much he still improved his team every

year. So progress is being made and development with players like smith and williams is improving.

2.We argue much about smith with the bonehead shots then blame it on woody. Well here's the thing if you watched nearly every

hawks game including the playoffs woody CONSTANTLY tells smith to go to the goal and STOP taking jumpshots. So really that

is smith's issue cause he dont listen and you cant blame that on woody.So woody gets a plus here because he knows his players

strengths and weaknesses of the ones he play.

3.Defense! yes just like every other coach in the league woody preaches defense but, I like how he coaches his defense and it

really benefited for the team this year. He dont believe in double teams on stars like d wade unless they go to the basket, in

general he dont like double teams at all really, he says why double and leave someone wide open or why let that star get his

team involved, cause if all our players are paying attention to that star then he's still making plays cause of too much attention. I

mean really then you really gon get a *ss whoopin! So woody says if he gon beat us then let him beat us himself dont let his team

get involved.

Negatives

1. Woody dont know offense and thats clear BUT i do think if he put the right pieces in then his offense will work. Woody needs

outstanding iso players at pg and sg to run his offense who can also be able to knock down the 3 pretty good. With of course a sf

being able to knock that 3 as well. As far as his big men he dont really use them as much as he should though smith gets a fair

amount of points, but there is no plays ran for the big men but neither is there any ran for the guards its just all ISO with woody.

2. Woody dont really pump his team up like he should but johnson can take alot of the blame on that as well. So its really on both

of them.

3. His managing skills as far as subbing in and out players is somewhat off but here's the thing woody only play the ones he

TRUST. woody didnt TRUST law therefore law didnt play, thats just how woody is and im like everybody else i disagree with that

philosophy but hey he's running the show and were just watching. BUT lets look at the bright side if we can keep that 8 man core

we used last year meaning get everybody back then we are improving cause we have crawford now and because woody knows

for a fact he can score, crawford will surely get his minutes and we turn into a 9 man rotation this year and possibly a 10 man

rotation if TEAGUE does well. An woody can seaparate the minutes with no problem! its just that he only give minutes to the ones

he TRUST and we as fans have to realize that.

Edited July 6, 2009 by JTB

[chico1]

Im not like everybody who just dislike woody all togeather. There are things i like about his coaching and there are things i dont like. Now this is REAL truth about WOODY even haterz should agree on. Check it out:

Positives

1.Has improved every year since he has been the hawks coach, even if the wins weren't by much he still improved his team every

year. So progress is being made and development with players like smith and williams is improving.

2.We argue much about smith with the bonehead shots then blame it on woody. Well here's the thing if you watched nearly every

hawks game including the playoffs woody CONSTANTLY tells smith to go to the goal and STOP taking jumpshots. So really that

is smith's issue cause he dont listen and you cant blame that on woody.So woody gets a plus here because he knows his players

strengths and weaknesses of the ones he play.

3.Defense! yes just like every other coach in the league woody preaches defense but, I like how he coaches his defense and it

really benefited for the team this year. He dont believe in double teams on stars like d wade unless they go to the basket, in

general he dont like double teams at all really, he says why double and leave someone wide open or why let that star get his

team involved, cause if all our players are paying attention to that star then he's still making plays cause of too much attention. I

mean really then you really gon get a *ss whoopin! So woody says if he gon beat us then let him beat us himself dont let his team

get involved.

Negatives

1. Woody dont know offense and thats clear BUT i do think if he put the right pieces in then his offense will work. Woody needs

outstanding iso players at pg and sg to run his offense who can also be able to knock down the 3 pretty good. With of course a sf

being able to knock that 3 as well. As far as his big men he dont really use them as much as he should though smith gets a fair

amount of points, but there is no plays ran for the big men but neither is there any ran for the guards its just all ISO with woody.

2. Woody dont really pump his team up like he should but johnson can take alot of the blame on that as well. So its really on both

of them.

3. His managing skills as far as subbing in and out players is somewhat off but here's the thing woody only play the ones he

TRUST. woody didnt TRUST law therefore law didnt play, thats just how woody is and im like everybody else i disagree with that

philosophy but hey he's running the show and were just watching. BUT lets look at the bright side if we can keep that 8 man core

we used last year meaning get everybody back then we are improving cause we have crawford now and because woody knows

for a fact he can score, crawford will surely get his minutes and we turn into a 9 man rotation this year and possibly a 10 man

rotation if TEAGUE does well. An woody can seaparate the minutes with no problem! its just that he only give minutes to the ones

he TRUST and we as fans have to realize that.

Great post man!!! I agree with it almost at it's entirety. Here is my two cents:

Positive:

1. Agree with you 100%. Some here will give credit to individual players improving, but players don't coach themselves. Also, when you take into consideration that basketball is a team sport it takes a person to bring everyone together to be successful.

2. Also agree with you on this point. I've actually heard Woodson speak negatively of Josh on interviews for taking too many shots and not driving to the basket instead.

3. I'm also a fan of Woodson's philosophy regarding double teaming high scoring players. It really makes perfect sense. Big offensive players like Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are always going to find a way to get their points. So double teaming them is counter productive. If their hot then let them score, but keep the rest of the team in check.

Negative:

1. Agree with you 100%. He can definitely be more creative with the offense and not rely so much on isolation plays.

2. I sorta agree with you on this one. You gotta give the guy credit for shaving his head after making the playoffs two seasons ago!

3. I agree with the fact that he can do a better job subbing players in and getting more guys involved. In regards to the Law situation though, I don't think we know enough on the situation to really know exactly why he didn't play him all that much. You could be right about the whole trust factor, but the guy kept getting hurt every time Woody gave him a shot. But in all honesty I'm really not sure what happened there... We'll have to see how Law plays in Golden State if he does in fact get some play time.

[JTB]

Great post man!!! I agree with it almost at it's entirety. Here is my two cents:

Positive:

1. Agree with you 100%. Some here will give credit to individual players improving, but players don't coach themselves. Also, when you take into consideration that basketball is a team sport it takes a person to bring everyone together to be successful.

2. Also agree with you on this point. I've actually heard Woodson speak negatively of Josh on interviews for taking too many shots and not driving to the basket instead.

3. I'm also a fan of Woodson's philosophy regarding double teaming high scoring players. It really makes perfect sense. Big offensive players like Wade, Lebron, and Kobe are always going to find a way to get their points. So double teaming them is counter productive. If their hot then let them score, but keep the rest of the team in check.

Negative:

1. Agree with you 100%. He can definitely be more creative with the offense and not rely so much on isolation plays.

2. I sorta agree with you on this one. You gotta give the guy credit for shaving his head after making the playoffs two seasons ago!

3. I agree with the fact that he can do a better job subbing players in and getting more guys involved. In regards to the Law situation though, I don't think we know enough on the situation to really know exactly why he didn't play him all that much. You could be right about the whole trust factor, but the guy kept getting hurt every time Woody gave him a shot. But in all honesty I'm really not sure what happened there... We'll have to see how Law plays in Golden State if he does in fact get some play time.

Good post on your answers. Im glad somebody took the time to read it. It might clear some things up for alot of people who has or doesnt have a problem with woody. LOL on the answer to NEG #2 forgot he did that!

[KB21]

I agree on most of your points. Many on here have damned Mike Woodson because of his inability to win with the Hawks early on. Well, Larry Brown wouldn't have won with the Hawks team that Mike Woodson inherited when he took this job. Mike Brown was the other finalist for the job back in 2004, and he wouldn't have made a difference with that team. Unlike the Cavaliers, the Hawks didn't find the luck of the lottery and get the #1 pick to draft the home town star.

Mike Woodson won 28% of his games in his first three years as a head coach in Atlanta. Even with that paltry winning percentage, his teams improved each year during that time, going from 13 wins in 2004-05 to 26 wins in 2005-06 and then to 30 wins in 2006-07.

Mike has won 51% of his games over the past two years, has been to the playoffs twice, and took his team to the 2nd round this past season. He has definitely shown improvement because he has been given time. One of the things that I dislike about the NBA is the expectation of instant gratification that many have. Young, first time head coaches taking on bad jobs aren't given a legitimate opportunity to build something. Look at Michael Curry in Detroit. He is the scapegoat for Joe Dumars's brilliant decision to trade their team leader for a team wrecker.

Sure, I would like to see Mike run more of a team oriented offense, but he's only doing what 95% of the coaches in the NBA do on offense anyway. He gets the ball into the hands of his best player and isolates them. No one on this board can tell me that most coaches in the NBA don't do this. It's one of the things I really dislike about the NBA - the NBA has taken a team game and has individualized it.

Another problem with the NBA is that there are really only a handful of good head coaches in the league. There is very little difference in everyone else.

[AHF]

Im not like everybody who just dislike woody all togeather. There are things i like about his coaching and there are things i dont like. Now this is REAL truth about WOODY even haterz should agree on. Check it out:

Positives

1.Has improved every year since he has been the hawks coach, even if the wins weren't by much he still improved his team every year. So progress is being made and development with players like smith and williams is improving.

Agreed.

2.We argue much about smith with the bonehead shots then blame it on woody. Well here's the thing if you watched nearly every hawks game including the playoffs woody CONSTANTLY tells smith to go to the goal and STOP taking jumpshots. So really that is smith's issue cause he dont listen and you cant blame that on woody.So woody gets a plus here because he knows his players strengths and weaknesses of the ones he play.

Woodson reminds me of the parents who say, "No Johny....stop pulling the cat's tail....no Johny....stop pulling the cat's tail....No Johny....Aargh. That Johny so frustrates me. (Sips coffee.) We aren't going to stop him from playing with the cat, but he needs to stop pulling the cat's tail. NO Johny...stop pulling the cat's tail...(sip)"

The parent doesn't take meaningful steps to enforce their direction or remove the child from the situation where he continues to get into trouble.

The time to use playing time or some other strong means of persuading Smith to stop shooting bad 3's was years ago. The time to get him to completely stop shooting 3's is yesterday. This is still on Woodson, IMO, because he hasn't required obedience from Josh on the issue of bad jumpers.

3.Defense! yes just like every other coach in the league woody preaches defense but, I like how he coaches his defense and it really benefited for the team this year. He dont believe in double teams on stars like d wade unless they go to the basket, in general he dont like double teams at all really, he says why double and leave someone wide open or why let that star get his team involved, cause if all our players are paying attention to that star then he's still making plays cause of too much attention. I mean really then you really gon get a *ss whoopin! So woody says if he gon beat us then let him beat us himself dont let his team get involved.

My main issue on D is the abuse of our switching by players like Paul Pierce. Bibby needs to be hidden on D more effectively. If you want Bibby as your PG, you can't run a no-thought switching system because it gets exploited with mismatches if you do.

Negatives

1. Woody dont know offense and thats clear BUT i do think if he put the right pieces in then his offense will work. Woody needs outstanding iso players at pg and sg to run his offense who can also be able to knock down the 3 pretty good. With of course a sf being able to knock that 3 as well. As far as his big men he dont really use them as much as he should though smith gets a fair amount of points, but there is no plays ran for the big men but neither is there any ran for the guards its just all ISO with woody.

This sounds like a kind way of saying we have zero structure for our offense and do nothing to exploit mismatches on the other team other than run isos for JJ, Flip, etc. This is a big problem.

2. Woody dont really pump his team up like he should but johnson can take alot of the blame on that as well. So its really on both of them.

Agreed that leadership from the players comes into play on this but I don't think this is as big a deal as other issues with Woodson. The team isn't always pumped up but the effort for a coach who has lost this many games and been there this long is pretty good, IMO.

3. His managing skills as far as subbing in and out players is somewhat off but here's the thing woody only play the ones he TRUST. woody didnt TRUST law therefore law didnt play, thats just how woody is and im like everybody else i disagree with that philosophy but hey he's running the show and were just watching. BUT lets look at the bright side if we can keep that 8 man core we used last year meaning get everybody back then we are improving cause we have crawford now and because woody knows for a fact he can score, crawford will surely get his minutes and we turn into a 9 man rotation this year and possibly a 10 man rotation if TEAGUE does well. An woody can seaparate the minutes with no problem! its just that he only give minutes to the ones he TRUST and we as fans have to realize that.

Hopefully Woodson will *trust* that JJ will not be as effective playing the minutes he did the last few years as he will be with more rest. I do think that Law should have had a regular, predictable role with the team - even if a limited one. The yo-yo style of minutes did not do him or our team any good (and I say this even with crediting Woodson that Law might be a bust). Hopefully the addition of Crawford will amount to more rest for JJ and Teague will not be "developed" like Law was.

[HawksBalla]

1. His offensive scheme is embarrassing. It doesn't fit the players we have. Its boring. Its mocked all the time in the press. It struggles mightily against good defensive teams. It relies far too much on Iso-Joe, causing Woody to play JJ 40+ a night. When Joe is off, our offense is usually toast.

2. He doesn't develop his bench. With Woody's job on the line yet again, we are assured of seeing 8-man rotations by January and 7-man rotations in March.

3. He doesn't develop young players. Acie Law, Shellhead, and Salim never came close to reaching what was predicted, Chills and Horford plataued offensivley much quicker then we thought would happen, Marvin and Smoove have had years in the league but havent achieved the potential we percieve of them due to their physical ability.

4. He doesn't get along with players. Zaza, Smoove, Salim, Law, Bibby bitches him out during a playoff game

If he took care even just #2, it would solve #3 as well. Those two factors alone would make our offensive output go up by sheer better production from our starters, and surely Woody would find lineups that give us mismatches, like when we would use Bibby-Flip-JJ at small forward.

I like him as a person, I know he tries hard as hell and is proud of what he has accomplished. But I think the Hawks aren't achieving what they could if they had a true offensive system, and if the team would play at least 9 deep to develop depth, develop our non-starting young players, and keep our starters rested for the playoffs. Those two weaknesses alone will keep the Hawks from advancing to the Eastern Conference finals.

[Watchman]

Woodson reminds me of the parents who say, "No Johny....stop pulling the cat's tail....no Johny....stop pulling the cat's tail....No Johny....Aargh. That Johny so frustrates me. (Sips coffee.) We aren't going to stop him from playing with the cat, but he needs to stop pulling the cat's tail. NO Johny...stop pulling the cat's tail...(sip)"

The parent doesn't take meaningful steps to enforce their direction or remove the child from the situation where he continues to get into trouble.

The time to use playing time or some other strong means of persuading Smith to stop shooting bad 3's was years ago. The time to get him to completely stop shooting 3's is yesterday. This is still on Woodson, IMO, because he hasn't required obedience from Josh on the issue of bad jumpers.

Excellent analogy.

[KB21]

So, Mike Woodson is basically caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Josh Smith. By giving him the minutes he does, he isn't disciplining him for his poor shot selection and habit of shooting too many jumpers. However, if Mike sits Josh down, he's roundly criticized for not playing one of his more talented players and the media starts talking about a rift between the player and the coach.

[Watchman]

So, Mike Woodson is basically caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Josh Smith. By giving him the minutes he does, he isn't disciplining him for his poor shot selection and habit of shooting too many jumpers. However, if Mike sits Josh down, he's roundly criticized for not playing one of his more talented players and the media starts talking about a rift between the player and the coach.

Life's tough.

BTW, are you on record as saying that playing Josh Smith is a no-win situation?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Watchman

[thefloydian]

This stuff about how the team has improved every year is so ridiculous that I didn't even read the rest. When you start at 13 wins with a team full of 19-year-olds it isn't hard to top that. And it's not like that "improvement" even netted us a winning season until last year. Woody is terrible. I don't know how many times I've watched the Hawks either on national tv (last year) or another team's broadcast and heard the announcers react in amazement to how awful the coaching is.

[Diesel]

Let me frame the reason why some don't like Woody to compare to your let's be soft on Woody stance.

You said that we blame Woody for Smith's shooting but Woody is constantly complaining to Smoove about his shot selection.

The truth of the matter is that if you brought in a championship Coach, he would only complain ONCE. Then after that, Smoove takes a dumb shot and Smoove goes to the bench. Woody's problem with Smoove comes from the fact that Woody never set up any boundaries with Smoove. So now, Woody's hoping that we trade Smoove instead of enforcing boundaries. That's not good coaching. Threats have to be made into promises. I would take a few losses with Smoove sitting on the bench if it will get him to stop shooting bone headed shots and focus on going to the rim.

You said that Woody doesn't know offense but puts the right pieces on the floor.

Actually, it's just that Woody doesn't know offense. His lack of offensive knowledge is only magnified when you look at his subbing pattern. There are too many times when we have non-scorers on the floor. Then the iso-Joe is ridiculous. IF Woody doesn't know offense, he should be humble enough to get an assistant who does and to allow that assistant to do that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Im not like everybody who just dislike woody all togeather. There are things i like about his coaching and there are things i dont like. Now this is REAL truth about WOODY even haterz should agree on. Check it out:

Positives

1.Has improved every year since he has been the hawks coach, even if the wins weren't by much he still improved his team every

year. So progress is being made and development with players like smith and williams is improving.

2.We argue much about smith with the bonehead shots then blame it on woody. Well here's the thing if you watched nearly every

hawks game including the playoffs woody CONSTANTLY tells smith to go to the goal and STOP taking jumpshots. So really that

is smith's issue cause he dont listen and you cant blame that on woody.So woody gets a plus here because he knows his players

strengths and weaknesses of the ones he play.

3.Defense! yes just like every other coach in the league woody preaches defense but, I like how he coaches his defense and it

really benefited for the team this year. He dont believe in double teams on stars like d wade unless they go to the basket, in

general he dont like double teams at all really, he says why double and leave someone wide open or why let that star get his

team involved, cause if all our players are paying attention to that star then he's still making plays cause of too much attention. I

mean really then you really gon get a *ss whoopin! So woody says if he gon beat us then let him beat us himself dont let his team

get involved.

Negatives

1. Woody dont know offense and thats clear BUT i do think if he put the right pieces in then his offense will work. Woody needs

outstanding iso players at pg and sg to run his offense who can also be able to knock down the 3 pretty good. With of course a sf

being able to knock that 3 as well. As far as his big men he dont really use them as much as he should though smith gets a fair

amount of points, but there is no plays ran for the big men but neither is there any ran for the guards its just all ISO with woody.

2. Woody dont really pump his team up like he should but johnson can take alot of the blame on that as well. So its really on both

of them.

3. His managing skills as far as subbing in and out players is somewhat off but here's the thing woody only play the ones he

TRUST. woody didnt TRUST law therefore law didnt play, thats just how woody is and im like everybody else i disagree with that

philosophy but hey he's running the show and were just watching. BUT lets look at the bright side if we can keep that 8 man core

we used last year meaning get everybody back then we are improving cause we have crawford now and because woody knows

for a fact he can score, crawford will surely get his minutes and we turn into a 9 man rotation this year and possibly a 10 man

rotation if TEAGUE does well. An woody can seaparate the minutes with no problem! its just that he only give minutes to the ones

he TRUST and we as fans have to realize that.

I've said the same thing for the past 2 years on this board. The people who hate Woody, are simply going to hate him, until he gets us to the NBA Finals. And if we don't win a title, they'll still blame Woody for our shortcomings.

There's just no changing their mind on this subject. They're absolutely convinced that Woody is still one of the 5 worst coaches in the league . . and that's that.

[JTB]

Let me frame the reason why some don't like Woody to compare to your let's be soft on Woody stance.

You said that we blame Woody for Smith's shooting but Woody is constantly complaining to Smoove about his shot selection.

The truth of the matter is that if you brought in a championship Coach, he would only complain ONCE. Then after that, Smoove takes a dumb shot and Smoove goes to the bench. Woody's problem with Smoove comes from the fact that Woody never set up any boundaries with Smoove. So now, Woody's hoping that we trade Smoove instead of enforcing boundaries. That's not good coaching. Threats have to be made into promises. I would take a few losses with Smoove sitting on the bench if it will get him to stop shooting bone headed shots and focus on going to the rim.

[b]You said that Woody doesn't know offense but puts the right pieces on the floor.

Actually, it's just that Woody doesn't know offense. His lack of offensive knowledge is only magnified when you look at his subbing pattern. There are too many times when we have non-scorers on the floor. Then the iso-Joe is ridiculous. IF Woody doesn't know offense, he should be humble enough to get an assistant who does and to allow that assistant to do that.

i agree with what you said but i didnt state that woody puts the right peices in on the floor. I said if he got the right players which would be iso players than his offense might actually work and that would be putting the right pieces in. right now he has 3 iso players jj, crawford, and hopefully we get flip back.

[ngc7]

we should be a running team