Hawks Johnson won't sign extension

[Wurider05]

GSUTeke you kind of support my point. We have gotten as far as JJ can take us. Any further advances will be the result of a team effort. The JJ show is over. We are too good of a team with too much talent to be the JJ show this season. He wants Lebron and Wade money but those guys carry their teams and pretty much play with bums. JJ has more talent on this team than what they have. He has no business asking for the max when his role diminishes and we become more team oriented. That is the only way we beat Boston, Orlando, and CLeveland.

[HAWKSFAN89]

lolol, told you guys he won't be back here next season.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . gotta love the Squawk.

I wonder how many people have me on ignore on this site, because I've been talking about this for I don't know how long. There are going to be at least 6 teams ( possibly more ) that are going to be able to make a play for JJ.

You fans that are "washing your hands" with JJ, or mad at him for not taking the lowball offer of the ASG, better understand that the NBA IS A BUSINESS . . not some kid's sport that you play strictly for the love of the game.

So you guys are telling me that if you're working a job that pays you 50K a year . . and they come back and offer you 52K to return . . but you think that you can possibly make 70K a year doing the same thing somewhere else . . that you should STILL take the 52K offer, just because your current employer feels it's a "FAIR DEAL"?

That's not reality folks.

There is going to be a domino effect that's going to happen, if Lebron and/or Wade leaves their current team. And just because a guy like a Bosh or Amare may be better than JJ, it doesn't necessarily mean that a particular team won't pick JJ over those 2 guys ( assuming Wade and Lebron are already off the board )

Minnesota has Kevin Love and Al Jefferson on their frontline. They have my boy fron Syracuse ( Johnny Flynn ) running the point. The have Corey Brewer at SF. Now you tell me . . where is their NEED?

Shooting Guard.

You don't think for one minute that the T-Wolves will throw the bank at Lebron and Wade first . . then if they can't get him, go DIRECTLY AFTER JJ?

Let's do it again.

The Knicks could use ANY superstar or star free agent. With D'Antoni as their coach, what do you think their short list of targets look like?

1. Lebron

2. Wade

3. Amare

4. JJ

You honestly don't think that the Knicks wouldn't salivate all over JJ, if they couldn't get one of the top 3? If JJ could get the Knicks back to the playoffs, he'd become the new King of New York. They'll try to anoint him the next Bernard King.

If Wade leaves the Heat, and they don't re-sign Jermaine O'Neal . . they now have a TON of money to spend on whomever. You don't think they'll target JJ?

If Lebron leaves the Cavs, and they don't re-sign Shaq . . they also have a ton of money to spend on whomever. You don't think they'll target JJ?

And some of you are kidding yourselves, if you think that a team, a playoff team, that needs to upgrade it's lineup, wouldn't try to execute a sign and trade for JJ, and pay JJ the type of money that he could possibly receive.

That team would get JJ, and the ASG would say "see, we got some "quality pieces" back in return for JJ.

Players of JJ's caliber have routinely received 15+ million a year deals. Now the economy may see JJ making less money, if the teams that could offer JJ close to a max deal, start being more fiscally conservative.

But I think you're about to see the opposite. And you saw that this year. A lot of guys that would typically command 8 - 10 million dollar deals, got 5 - 7 million dollar deals. The guys that would be worth 5 million, got 1.5 to 3 million deals.

I think the star players are still going to get paid. It's the middle of the road type players ( like a Marvin ), and bench players ( like a Fiip ) that are going to make less money in this economy.

You'll also see less teams being patient with slow developing rookie players. You're seeing a lot of one-year deals. Those are the guys that will see significant pay cuts, because they are easily expendible.

Professional sports is a business. That's why I was saying all along to offer JJ a 5/80 - 90 ( 16 - 18 mill a year ) deal. Or if the max he could get was a 4-year extension, a 4/64 - 72 deal.

Whether you think so or not, 15 mill a year was a lowball offer for a guy that literally brought ATL out of the depths of Hell, got us to the playoffs twice, and made 3 consecutive All-Star teams.

If the ASG is really concerned about money, I still predict a Dominique-like trade in February involving Kevin Martin of Sacramento for JJ.

[KDT88]

If JJ leaves, then we'll take a step back next year, but thats fine because JJ will never be a player that leads a team to a title. I think we all know that. Better to spend our money on a legit all star down the road.

[Buzzard]

LOL . . gotta love the Squawk.

If the ASG is really concerned about money, I still predict a Dominique-like trade in February involving Kevin Martin of Sacramento for JJ.

I don't ignore you and if we are going to lose JJ straight up; a cap clearing move for one team that gets us a valid asset is fine with me. I do think JJ is gone next season; if for no other reason than we will not pay him the max and someone else will. He is just not worth 20 mill to us (my opinion) but he may be to some team that just needs one or two peices...

Far as I am concerned 20 mill should get you a lot more in the playoffs than .423 fg% and 15.8 ppg (career playoff averages). A whole lot more! Come to think of it...Crawford could give us that lol

Edited September 29, 2009 by Buzzard

[coachx]

Well then get lost JJ. I'd say we go after Wade if we are looking to spend max type money. His play has been on the decline. His playoff performances have been terrible for a so called franchise player. Time to look elsewhere.

Cap Rules 101

We cannot sign Wade or any other team's free agents b/c we are over the cap. We can only go over the cap to resign our own free agents.

[Buzzard]

Cap Rules 101

We cannot sign Wade or any other team's free agents b/c we are over the cap. We can only go over the cap to resign our own free agents.

And that is why a trade, such as northcyde mentions, to a team that will make cap space by losing JJ makes the most sense; if Sund is sure we will lose him outright. I will leave it to Sund to work out (as if I can do anything else) and now start getting hyped about our season again!

Edited September 29, 2009 by Buzzard

[gsuteke]

NC the Hawks are better than all the teams you mentioned above with the exception of the Cavs without Joe.

Also the Cavs are way over the cap just like we are, even if they lose Shaq's 20 million dollar deal they still won't be able to offer Joe 17 million per cuz they're in the same position we are.

[Buzzard]

NC the Hawks are better than all the teams you mentioned above with the exception of the Cavs without Joe.

Also the Cavs are way over the cap just like we are, even if they lose Shaq's 20 million dollar deal they still won't be able to offer Joe 17 million per cuz they're in the same position we are.

Yes the Cavs are screwed if they lose Lebron outright; at least we have some good young solid players. I don't think JJ's decision is going to be based on us being the bettter team so he will take less money from us. I think whomever offers him the max or close to it will get him and if it is more than one team then he will base his decision on the best fit.

[Buzzard]

If JJ leaves, then we'll take a step back next year, but thats fine because JJ will never be a player that leads a team to a title. I think we all know that. Better to spend our money on a legit all star down the road.

Agreed, even though I will hate losing him if that happens. From JJ's perspective, this is his last shot at a max offer. He is 28 and 5 years from now he will be considered a mid level exception at best.

[Flight]

If we givin max money to ANYBODY it better be D.Wade. I love JJ but if he wants to leave then he can. I think we should find a way to get Dwade or just trade JJ since he wants to be such a baby about signing the extension. We offered him exactly the amount of money he's worth. I think if anybody should be refusing to do an extension it should be us. Dude isn't very consistent in times of need (playoffs). I figure if he leaves he really won't go anywhere that he'll have the same opportunity as he has with the Hawks. Seriously, How many teams in this league would want JJ as a first option that can still make the playoffs and be a top 4 seeded team? Exactly. I love JJ and would love for him to stay but dude is just being stubborn with his money. He actin like the money matters more than the team.

[buckeye242424]

I have mixed emotions on this subject.

On the one hand JJ is an overrated jump shooter - on the other hand he's a damn good overrated jump shooter.

That shot he hit against the Heat in the playoffs from way beyond the 3 point arc was insane and clutch.

Sure some teams will have money to sign a max level player - but two? Even if that be the case the supporting cast around Joe would pale in comparison to what he's got in Atlanta.

The real question is does Joe want to win or does Joe want the most $$$ he can possibly get? It is impossible for him to get both. Joe left Phoenix because he wanted to "be the guy." Well he is the guy and the Hawks are on the verge of being "the team" over the next 5 years.

My only hope is that Joe doesn't get caught up in his own numbers this season because for this team to take the next step Marvin, Al, Smoove, and Crawford as the 6 man must play a larger role than last season.

For the Hawks to improve on 47 wins but more importantly make a deep playoff run this season Joe will have to play less minutes and other guys will have to shoulder a larger portion of the load. I just hope Joe is fine with that.

If Joe is going to receive max money, you're dead on...he's going to be expected to carry the team - like any player getting max dollars should do. I just don't see any team that has that kind of money to spend to have the situation that Joe has to win now, and more importantly, well into the future with the core guys being so young - save Bibs.

Joe has substituted wins with $$$ before. I can't see how his mindset would change too much unless he sees a chance at a ring here, if that matters to him, which I hope it would. However, some other team will offer more money to him than the Hawks come summer. It will happen...and I believe the primary reason Crawford was brought in. Just in case....

What is going to be interesting to me this year reagrading JJ, is....what if his minutes dwindle because of our increased depth? The domino effect is his production goes down. How does he handle it considering the payday he'll get in the summer? Will it become a distraction? What if his minutes go down, and (God forbid) we're losing?

[Guest Walter]

That's why I was saying all along to offer JJ a 5/80 - 90 ( 16 - 18 mill a year ) deal. Or if the max he could get was a 4-year extension, a 4/64 - 72 deal.

Whether you think so or not, 15 mill a year was a lowball offer for a guy that literally brought ATL out of the depths of Hell, got us to the playoffs twice, and made 3 consecutive All-Star teams.

If the ASG is really concerned about money, I still predict a Dominique-like trade in February involving Kevin Martin of Sacramento for JJ.

I read an earlier post of yours. I agree that JJ more likely will command more than $60M/4. I agree that $64M/4 would have been a better offer. Had JJ indicated $64M/4 or $75M/5 would have gotten it done, Sund would have gotten it done. I don't believe JJ indicated this (He wants even more) and is hoping for even more. I do not believe that giving more than $64M/4 or $75M/5 for JJ is prudent for the Hawks.

As such, I'm not at all averse to a trade that nets us Kevin Martin at $11 million next year (and for the next 2 years).

I do think that we will have to trade JJ at the deadline UNLESS he somehow convinces us that he does not intend to leave (I don't see how he could do that). We cannot afford to lose him for nothing.

W

Edited September 29, 2009 by Walter

[gsuteke]

If Joe is going to receive max money, you're dead on...he's going to be expected to carry the team - like any player getting max dollars should do. I just don't see any team that has that kind of money to spend to have the situation that Joe has to win now, and more importantly, well into the future with the core guys being so young - save Bibs.

Joe has substituted wins with $$$ before. I can't see how his mindset would change too much unless he sees a chance at a ring here, if that matters to him, which I hope it would. However, some other team will offer more money to him than the Hawks come summer. It will happen...and I believe the primary reason Crawford was brought in. Just in case....

What is going to be interesting to me this year reagrading JJ, is....what if his minutes dwindle because of our increased depth? The domino effect is his production goes down. How does he handle it considering the payday he'll get in the summer? Will it become a distraction? What if his minutes go down, and (God forbid) we're losing?

That was before he got stinking filthy rich 70 million ago. My honest to goodness hope is the guy doesn't walk over a 5 year 78 million dollar offer from us Vs. a 5 year 84 million dollar offer from the T Wolves or Knicks.

I'm not asking the guy to give us a discount but damn, how much money can you spend? Seriously. Comparing this situation to a guy that makes 50K and gets an offer for 60K is an absurd analogy.

[mrhonline]

Losing him for nothing is a risk the Hawks simply have to take. You don't build this team up from the bottom just to freak out over not getting your star player signed to an extension.

Sund couldn't offer five years via an extension, something JJ's agent is well aware of. The Hawks will have Bird rights next year, meaning they can offer 2.5% more in raises than any other team.

Unless some team stupidly offers him $100M, the Hawks still have a great shot at re-signing JJ.

[buckeye242424]

Losing him for nothing is a risk the Hawks simply have to take. You don't build this team up from the bottom just to freak out over not getting your star player signed to an extension.

Sund couldn't offer five years via an extension, something JJ's agent is well aware of. The Hawks will have Bird rights next year, meaning they can offer 2.5% more in raises than any other team.

Unless some team stupidly offers him $100M, the Hawks still have a great shot at re-signing JJ.

Everyone read this. Great post....

[HawkItus]

I read an earlier post of yours. I agree that JJ more likely will command more than $60M/4. I agree that $64M/4 would have been a better offer. Had JJ indicated $64M/4 or $75M/5 would have gotten it done, Sund would have gotten it done. I don't believe JJ indicated this (He wants even more) and is hoping for even more. I do not believe that giving more than $64M/4 or $75M/5 for JJ is prudent for the Hawks.

As such, I'm not at all averse to a trade that nets us Kevin Martin at $11 million next year (and for the next 2 years).

I do think that we will have to trade JJ at the deadline UNLESS he somehow convinces us that he does not intend to leave (I don't see how he could do that). We cannot afford to lose him for nothing.

W

I think this is what we see happen. And I think we get a guy with an expiring like Bosh or either a couple of young guys.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@ gsuteke:

Unless I looked at the Cavs salary structure wrong, ( accordng to Hoopshype ) the Cavs will have 48 million in salary commited to their players in 2010 - 11 . . IF . . Lebron didn't opt out, and took the 17 million he's due next year.

Now if the scenario is that Shaq is let go, and Lebron doesn't want to come back to the Cavs ( so they renounce his rights to eliminate his cap hold ) . . by what I see, the Cavs set payroll for 2010 - 11 will now stand at around 31 million.

If they did that, they now have enough money to splurge on whomever they want. For that squad, I'd probably go Amare first, the Wade, the Bosh, then JJ.

@ Walter:

That's probably what Babcock was thinking back in 1994, when Nique wanted a multi year deal and more money. They didn't want to risk losing him for nothing, so they dealt him for the younger, supposedly more versatile Danny Manning.

I actually agree with you about Kevin Martin. At 11 mill for the next 2 years, he'd be a sensible alternative for losing JJ the shooter. And financially, it's a fiscally sound move.

But to me, it would be a move reminiscent of how Phoenix runs their team. Their fans go crazy every time there's talk about them losing one of their star players, simply because the owner worries more about the financial bottom line, than the product on the court.

So while we'd gain an equal, or possibly even better shooter than JJ, we lose the other intangibles that JJ brought to the table. The, when the team falls back to around .500 or below, the fan base would become enraged at management, and their bad decisions.

But if for some reason if JJ and the Hawks are struggling near the All-Star break ( like a .500 record ), and are fighting just to make the playoffs, moving JJ at the deadline may be the way to go. But you only trade him if he AND the Hawks are struggling.

But if we're the #1 seed, like we were in 1994, then we bet not trade JJ, no matter how inconsistent he is.

@ mrH:

Defintely agree with you. If we do have a successful season, and JJ is a big reason for it, the team probably will give him more money anyway. But no way should they freak out and try to do a "smart move by trading JJ", just to make sure they have somebody next year to replace him.

We can't replay 1994 again . . with a team showing signs of really making noise in the playoffs, but management so afraid to lose their star for nothing, that they make a mid-season move to move him.

I still say that Crawford was Sund's "worst case scenario" solution to possibly losing JJ next summer.

[gsuteke]

But why would anyone go to Cleveland without Lebron there given other more attractive options?

I can't think of a reason outside of the money.

[bonethugz]

Everyone read this. Great post....

x2

and people get scared easy too.......

plus, if jj really choose a million or two over us(it's not like we're not offering jj some decent money). i don't want him. if jj want to play with lebron or other star(s)(championship) instead of here leading the team(admitting he's not da man). i don't want him or don't want paying him the max(or close to the max)

Edited September 29, 2009 by bonethugz