If Joe Johnson Leaves

[niremetal]

Well the way you came at me was I am full of it because you know for a fact Phoenix was not going to match. Sorry but the only facts we have is what others say. Owner says he would have matched....JJ says he would not. History also shows us MOST teams do not lose RESTRICTED free agents for nothing. But with all that being said, yours nor my opinion is fact; so calling me dead wrong just because we differ in opinions; and actling like your opinion is the word of God is condescending as well.

In no uncertain terms, you responded to my initital post like a pompous know it all jackass as well...

You spoke with absolute certainty in your original post on the subject ("Phoenix was willing to match our offer and keep him."). I responded with similar certainty. But unlike you, I didn't make a barely-veiled suggestion that you made your source up. That's the difference, buddy. You spoke with certainty and I responded in kind, but you were the one who proceeded to condescend by suggesting that I merely "thought" JJ said something. Everyone speaks with certainty around here when they state their opinions. That's part of being on a blog. But you're the first person I've seen respond to someone's post by saying something like your "what you think JJ said" statement. So don't try to equate our posts, unless you want other people to start responding to all your posts in the same way. Because if that happens, you'll find yourself having to provide links and citations for everything you say.

Edited November 22, 2009 by niremetal

[Buzzard]

You spoke with absolute certainty in your original post on the subject ("Phoenix was willing to match our offer and keep him."). I responded with similar certainty. But unlike you, I didn't make a barely-veiled suggestion that you made your source up. That's the difference, buddy. You spoke with certainty and I responded in kind, but you were the one who proceeded to condescend by suggesting that I merely "thought" JJ said something. Everyone speaks with certainty around here when they state their opinions. That's part of being on a blog. But you're the first person I've seen respond to someone's post by saying something like your "what you think JJ said" statement. So don't try to equate our posts, unless you want other people to start responding to all your posts in the same way. Because if that happens, you'll find yourself having to provide links and citations for everything you say.

I hope you are wrong and he sees no other place he would rather be. But these two facts worry me about JJ.

1- Phoenix was willing to match our offer and keep him. JJ did not want to stay.

2- They were a hell of a lot better than us back then. About 40 to 50 wins a season better.

JJ danced to the beat of a different drummer 5 years ago; I hope he is not dancing that way again after this season. I also think the extra year is bigger this time around because it will be his last near max or max offer.

1- When I said Phoenix was willing to match, that was taken directly from what their owner said with no doubts as to whether the Phoenix organization said it or meant it. I am not going to act like a mind reader and read something else into it. And quite honestly I doubt very seriously if the Suns management team ever told JJ they were bluffing; or invited him to a management meeting to discuss such a possible bluff. So how JJ all of a sudden became a mind reader we can count on definetely with 100 % certainty is beyond me.

2- Phoenix was a lot better than us but JJ left anyway.

My whole statement was a response to I hope the poster I was responding to was wrong. I never told him flat out I am 100% correct; as you implied in your response to me with your use of the words. (Paraphrased) "Phoenix was definetely not going to match (Buzzard) because JJ said so; therefore you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Buzzard

[niremetal]

1- When I said Phoenix was willing to match, that was taken directly from what their owner said with no doubts as to whether the Phoenix organization said it or meant it. I am not going to act like a mind reader and read something else into it. And quite honestly I doubt very seriously if the Suns management team ever told JJ they were bluffing; or invited him to a management meeting to discuss such a possible bluff. So how JJ all of a sudden became a mind reader we can count on definetely with 100 % certainty is beyond me.

2- Phoenix was a lot better than us but JJ left anyway.

My whole statement was a response to I hope the poster I was responding to was wrong. I never told him flat out I am 100% correct; as you implied in your response to me with your use of the words. (Paraphrased) "Phoenix was definetely not going to match (Buzzard) because JJ said so; therefore you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right.

You're hilarious, dude. You're basing on what the Phoenix owner told the public and are dismissive of the possibility that the owner was bluffing, basically arguing that those self-interested statements are obviously more reliable than the read of a player who sat across the negotiation player from the owners, and acting as if no one else has ever said that Phoenix was bluffing (when in reality MOST Hawks fans who've talked about this here and on the AJC blog have said Phoenix was bluffing). Yet in your original post, you said that Phoenix "was" going to match and called your opinion "facts." How is that not speaking with certainty?

Whatever. You keep trying to climb down from your high horse; have fun.

Edited November 22, 2009 by niremetal

[Buzzard]

You're hilarious, dude. You're basing on what the Phoenix owner told the public and are dismissive of the possibility that the owner was bluffing, basically arguing that those self-interested statements are obviously more reliable than the read of a player who sat across the negotiation player from the owners, and acting as if no one else has ever said that Phoenix was bluffing (when in reality MOST Hawks fans who've talked about this here and on the AJC blog have said Phoenix was bluffing). Yet in your original post, you said that Phoenix "was" going to match and called your opinion "facts." How is that not speaking with certainty?

Whatever. You keep trying to climb down from your high horse; have fun.

It is not a high horse to think they would match. Even JJ said multiple owners were interested yet all of them thought they would match. JJ is the only source you have for this fact of yours and you discount the Suns owner and multiple owners who believed the Suns would match. Like I said when did JJ become a mind reader? JJ was invovled in his first FA negotiation yet you discount multiple NBA owners who have been doing this for years. JJ is your fact; the Suns owner and management team is mine. End of story.

This is way off topic. It is not would the Suns really match our offer to JJ...the topic is "If Joe Johnson Leaves"

I hope he does not leave; but if he does unless we find someone better than Craw to replace him, IMO we will not be as good as we are now. Argue with that.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Buzzard

[sillent]

Rudy Gay/ Andre Iggy would be good fits for our team. Our team is constructed to be a team with many weapons that can attack from many angles at any different time and we rely on our defense to win games. Rudy is/would be available and would definitely not need ISO's for him. This means more ball movement and help defense which actually is the strength of our team!!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Rudy Gay/ Andre Iggy would be good fits for our team. Our team is constructed to be a team with many weapons that can attack from many angles at any different time and we rely on our defense to win games. Rudy is/would be available and would definitely not need ISO's for him. This means more ball movement and help defense which actually is the strength of our team!!

Problem is, we're not going to be able to afford Rudy. He'll command more money than Marvin did, out on the open market. He's easily an 8.5 - 10 mill a year player. Imagine this . . .the Knicks convincing LeBron to leave Cleveland to come to NY. But instead of splurging on another max level player, they settle for a complimentary player like Rudy.

G - Robinson ( I know Duhon is the starter, but he shouldn't be starting )

G - Rudy

F - Lebron

F - Harrington

F - Lee

With a guy like Lebron on the team, that would be a pretty decent squad to put around him, from an offensive standpoint.

[spotatl]

Its free to tell anyone that will listen that you are going to match. There is absolutely no reason to say anything else. When Andre Miller was a RFA on the Clippers they told everyone they would match right up until they didn't. Why wouldn't you tell everyone that you are going to match? Do you really believe that the Hawks would have actually matched ANY offer to Childress after they said that? I think its ridiculous that anyone actually believes that the Suns would have matched a max contract offer for their 4th best player. I mean after the Suns ended up SELLING their first round picks and so much information has come out saying they wouldn't have matched I am just astounded that people are still having this argument. To repeat- the Suns SOLD Rajon Rondo yet you think they would have matched a max offer for their 4th best player!?

Edited November 24, 2009 by spotatl

[AHF]

Problem is, we're not going to be able to afford Rudy. He'll command more money than Marvin did, out on the open market. He's easily an 8.5 - 10 mill a year player. Imagine this . . .the Knicks convincing LeBron to leave Cleveland to come to NY. But instead of splurging on another max level player, they settle for a complimentary player like Rudy.

G - Robinson ( I know Duhon is the starter, but he shouldn't be starting )

G - Rudy

F - Lebron

F - Harrington

F - Lee

With a guy like Lebron on the team, that would be a pretty decent squad to put around him, from an offensive standpoint.

Awwww...what a squeezably soft frontcourt!

[Buzzard]

so much information has come out saying they wouldn't have matched I am just astounded that people are still having this argument.

You are the only one still arguing, niremetal and I quit a couple of days ago. And you and your so much information? You can always tell new posters when they make such larger then life claims yet give no links what so ever to support these claims.

Here is a hint:

when you make such a claim, provide the multiple links to support the claim. Niremetal at least supported his JJ post with a very good link to the quote. Now if you go get your multiple quotes of multiple people directly involved in the negotiations who said the Suns would not match, you will get more responses (replies) to your post; and some well earned respect from the board.

I am assuming "so much information" means more than one person and quote; hopefully it is not just the one quote already provided by niremetal. Otherwise most of us who have been posting for a while see such statements as over the top, emotional, drama queen BS.

Did you forget the Suns added 20 million a year to their payroll with Shaq. So yes they sold draft picks but they sure as hell did not cut payroll when they added the Diesel for Marion. Now go get your multiple sources to support "so much information" or stop arguing like you implied everyone else should do except yourself...

Edited November 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

Awwww...what a squeezably soft frontcourt!

Yes! Put Lebron on a solid defensive team with a couple of good offensive role players (shooters and penetrators) and he takes them to the finals. Otherwise you are going to wear him out over a season being the best offensive and defensive player on the team.

Defense and rebounding wins championships. Whether you are Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Garnett, or Peirce, none of them got a championship until their team could rebound and play defense....

Edited November 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[MaceCase]

Problem is, we're not going to be able to afford Rudy. He'll command more money than Marvin did, out on the open market. He's easily an 8.5 - 10 mill a year player. Imagine this . . .the Knicks convincing LeBron to leave Cleveland to come to NY. But instead of splurging on another max level player, they settle for a complimentary player like Rudy.

G - Robinson ( I know Duhon is the starter, but he shouldn't be starting )

G - Rudy

F - Lebron

F - Harrington

F - Lee

With a guy like Lebron on the team, that would be a pretty decent squad to put around him, from an offensive standpoint.

Except after capholds are taken into consideration you are more likely to end up with:

G-Douglas

G-Gay

F-Lebron

F-Gallinari

C-Hill

with Chandler, Curry, and Jeffries coming off the bench.

Can you say championship?

Edited November 25, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[spotatl]

Frankly I am just sort of shocked that anyone would still with a straight face claim that they think the Suns would still have matched. I didn't think there were people in such denial anymore but if it makes you happy to be there then more power to you. The only reason to think that the Suns would have matched is that the Owners said they would. But of course the Hawks said the same thing about childress and no one here believes that and the Clippers said the same thing about Odom and MIller right before they were allowed to walk. I don't see any reason to dig around to find all the links because if you haven't come to grips with reality by now then I don't think there is any hope for you in the future.

[Atlantaholic]

I'm starting to think we overpaid a lot for Marvin. Our cap situation sure would look better without his 7 -9 million for the next few years.

The real question to me about JJ leaving is, how do we clear capspace to replace him? (is it even possible for us to do so?). In my mind only Horf and Smoove are untouchable right now (Horf is not totally untouchable, but I don't see us getting anything to close value if we shopped him)... Unfortunately for us, after JJ they are the only two players with real trade value.

[Buzzard]

I'm starting to think we overpaid a lot for Marvin. Our cap situation sure would look better without his 7 -9 million for the next few years.

The real question to me about JJ leaving is, how do we clear capspace to replace him? (is it even possible for us to do so?). In my mind only Horf and Smoove are untouchable right now (Horf is not totally untouchable, but I don't see us getting anything to close value if we shopped him)... Unfortunately for us, after JJ they are the only two players with real trade value.

I am not worried about Marvin and don't think he is overpayed. Smoove and Al have great trade value. I also think in this order these players have good to average value: Marvin, Craw, Bibby, ZaZa, and Teague.

We will see what happens at the trade deadline; but if we continue to play this well, I would be shocked if any of our starting five plus Craw are moved this season. JJ is a keeper and IMO Sund thinks that way also.

[tbhawksfan]

I think JJ will want to re-sign with the Hawks. The question is; is it in the Hawks best interest to sign him (probably in the $18M a year range) or try to trade him before the deadlline. Him walking would be a worst case senario.

If Sund thinks JJ at about $18M isn't a good deal, his talent and expiring become very attractive. If we're lucky, JJ will sign a reasonable deal, like Smoove, MW, bibby and Zaza and the Hawks can keep rolling for years.