Is Woody the Hawks' version of Doug Collins?

[hawks21]

How on earth can you say that Woodson has done a poor job developing guards when he hasn't had anything to work with? When Salim was here there were plenty of fans who thought that Woodson wasn't using him right. Then Salim became a free agent and is now out of the league because he simply isn't NBA material. He simply was a bad draftpick. People thought that Acie wasn't being used right. Then he got traded and the Warriors didn't even think he was good enough to pick up his 4th year team option. He simply was a poor draftpick. Its not like Woodson just sat on young players and as soon as they went to a different coach they all the sudden showed that they were being misused.

For the last six years under Woodson, this team has needed to import guards via free agency or trade because this team has a diffciult time in developing young guards. It is not an aberration due to a singular draft pick, but goes to the the flaws of Woodson as a talent evaluator and coach.

GM Sund want results from the Hawks younger players and this assignment falls on Woodson. Why sign Woodson if he can't develop the future? Teague doesn't have to be a All-Star player, but he has to be a contributing member of this Hawks on a nightly basis. If Teague DNP-CD starts to rise, this will work as a negative against Woodson.

[spotatl]

What coach do you think could have turned Salim, Acie, or Royal Ivey into quality NBA players? I can't see how any coach can be blamed for a GM drafting lousy players. Its not his fault he has nothing to work with. When Woodson was sitting Acie and Salim more than fans wanted its because he KNEW BETTER that they weren't NBA players and people here were just wishcasting all sorts of skills on them that don't exist. We'll see what Teague can do. I was much higher on him than I ever was on Acie. But After Salim and Acie I'll certainly give Woodson the benefit of the doubt for now. If Teague isn't ready yet then he just isn't ready yet. Maybe if the team wasn't too cheap to field a summer league team he would be further along.

Edited November 24, 2009 by spotatl

[TheNorthCydeRises]

For the last six years under Woodson, this team has needed to import guards via free agency or trade because this team has a diffciult time in developing young guards. It is not an aberration due to a singular draft pick, but goes to the the flaws of Woodson as a talent evaluator and coach.

GM Sund want results from the Hawks younger players and this assignment falls on Woodson. Why sign Woodson if he can't develop the future? Teague doesn't have to be a All-Star player, but he has to be a contributing member of this Hawks on a nightly basis. If Teague DNP-CD starts to rise, this will work as a negative against Woodson.

And that can be achieved at a later date, if need be. Teague ( if we want to keep him that long ) is under contract for four years. When you have a proven starting PG like Mike Bibby, and a combo guard like Jamal Crawford, it is not imperative that Teague gets developed in year 1.

Now if an injury happens, then he has to play. If Bibby can't go Thursday night, Teague will at least get 10 - 15 minutes of PT. It'll be different if Teague was the immeadiate backup PG to Bibby. But right now, that position is held by Crawford. So Teague is technically the 9th/10th man on the team, and the 3rd PG.

It's the same situaton that Mo Evans is in. With Crawford being able to play the 2, and JJ able to play the 3, Evans is essentially the 3rd SG and SF. The main differences with Mo is that he can play 2 positions . . and he's proven in the past that he can be trusted somewhat ( even though he's not doing anything in the past 2 weeks or so ). That gives him a chance to play a little more than Teague.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for the guards Woody has had to work with . . lol . . man please. These are the guards Woody had to work with in the 5 1/4 years he's been the Coach of the Hawks:

- Kenny Anderson ( and not the Georgia Tech version either )

- Jon Barry

- Tony Delk

- Royal Ivey ( who we kept for 3 years )

- Anthony Grundy

- Joe Johnson

- Salim Stoudamire

- Ceedric Bozeman ( lol . . this dude started at PG once )

- Speedy Claxton

- Anthony Johnson

- Jeremy Richardson ( who Woody called a play for at the end of a game to win it . . but JR missed the wide open shot )

- Mike Bibby

- Acie Law

- Mario West

- Thomas Gardner

- Mo Evans

- Flip Murray

- Jamal Crawford

- Jeff Teague

Man please. LOL @ some of the names on that list. And the only 1st round PGs the Hawks drafted, that are on that list, are Acie and Jeff.

Ish . . I can even say that Woody developed BOTH Tyronn Lue and Flip Murray.

Before Lue got to the Hawks, his most notable NBA achievement was being the DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST who guarded Iverson in the 2000 NBA Finals . . who will be forever immortalized as the guy Iverson made fall to the floor, shot a 3, hit it, and then stepped over him like he was road kill. ( If I were on my laptop, I'd post the youtube link to that. )

6 years later, Lue is averaging double figure points for the Hawks, and Woody is trusting him to take game-wnning shots.

And look at Flip. Flip was probably on his way overseas, before the Hawks picked him up. He comes in and IMMEADIATELY shows that he's better than Acie, which prompted Woody to eventually treat Flip like he was Ben Gordon or somebody, dramatically raising his importance level to the team. Flip then responds with the best NBA season he's ever had.

But because Woody didn't develop those other aging bums, and those 2nd round and undrafted combo guards, Woody doesn't develop guards?

And people have STILL failed the answer to my question:

Why do other coaches get credit for developing their young and/or star players, but Woody can't get ANY CREDIT for the development of Joe Johnson and Josh Smith?

Edited November 25, 2009 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . and people wonder why JJ plays like he does and why Woody developed ISO JJ. Lmao . . look at that list of guards he had to play with.

Damn.

[Buzzard]

As for the guards Woody has had to work with . . lol . . man please. These are the guards Woody had to work with in the 5 1/4 years he's been the Coach of the Hawks

Man please. LOL @ some of the names on that list. And the only 1st round PGs the Hawks drafted, that are on that list, are Acie and Jeff.

Ish . . I can even say that Woody developed BOTH Tyronn Lue and Flip Murray.

Before Lue got to the Hawks, his most notable NBA achievement was being the DEFENSIVE SPECIALIST who guarded Iverson in the 2000 NBA Finals . . who will be forever immortalized as the guy Iverson made fall to the floor, shot a 3, hit it, and then stepped over him like he was road kill. ( If I were on my laptop, I'd post the youtube link to that. )

6 years later, Lue is averaging double figure points for the Hawks, and Woody is trusting him to take game-wnning shots.

And look at Flip. Flip was probably on his way overseas, before the Hawks picked him up. He comes in and IMMEADIATELY shows that he's better than Acie, which prompted Woody to eventually treat Flip like he was Ben Gordon or somebody, dramatically raising his importance level to the team. Flip then responds with the best NBA season he's ever had.

But because Woody didn't develop those other aging bums, and those 2nd round and undrafted combo guards, Woody doesn't develop guards?

And people have STILL failed the answer to my question:

Why do other coaches get credit for developing their young and/or star players, but Woody can't get ANY CREDIT for the development of Joe Johnson and Josh Smith?

I don't think he developed Flip one bit. Murray has had four seasons (one with us) in which he averaged dbl digit scoring and is working on his 5th with the Bobcats now. Woody used him as he should have though; and I guess should get credit for that. Lue the same; he gave him more minutes and his scoring went up.

Lue has averaged 8.5 ppg for his career and the only season before us that he averaged dbl digit scoring was in 03/04 and he also got 30 minutes a game. I agree Woody never had a quality PG to work with until Bibby and that is sad for a franchise whose owners and gm said they wanted to build a winner. But saying Woody developed Lue and Flip is not true in my opinion either. He just gave the best PGs he had more minutes and their scoring went up, same as it did when they were given more minutes before coming to Atlanta.

Give me a break on developing JJ. The whole reason JJ was considered a top FA was because he had just put together his two best seasons in a row as a pro. If anyone developed JJ it was DAntoni. Smoove, sure we can say Woodson helped Smoove; no doubt.

I am not a detractor of Woodys coaching style; just his game plan. And I do not think Woodson got a lot of help from BK in getting him a offensive floor general one bit. But now that he has one in Bibby; its long overdue we see something more creative than ISO Joe and a three point attempt as our offensive staples.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Buzzard

[bonethugz]

So let me ask you this?

Why do all of those other coaches get credit for developing their players, but Woody can't get credit for developing the two best players on this team . . . Joe Johnson and Josh Smith?

According to Jay Bilas on draft night, Josh Smith was going to be a bust. According to a lot of NBA experts, Joe Johnson could NEVER be a #1 scoring option for a successful team.

Yet, both of those things have been proven untrue . . . with Woody being the coach of both of those players.

So why can't Woody get any credit . . MAJOR CREDIT . . for the development of JJ and Smoove?

because a)joe johnson was already a very good player when he first came here and b)josh smith only been playing good this year. remember a lot of people wanted to kill or trade josh smith before the season starts?

[thefloydian]

I don't even care about Woodson's player development. He's just a bad coach in terms of x's and o's and game management.

[Sothron]

My eyes boggled so badly reading that someone actually thinks Woodson "developed" JJ and Murry I think I've gone crosseyed.

[spotatl]

There is no question at all that Joe Johnson is a far better player with the Hawks than he ever was with the Suns. If you don't see that then you are just willfully being ignorant of the facts. There is no question that Woodson got a remarkable amount of production out of Flip Murray. Murray was waived during the season a couple times the season before he went to the Hawks as far as I know and by the end of the season he was being counted on in the second round of the playoffs. Its remarkable. (But I wouldn't use the word "developed" for Flip)

[bonethugz]

There is no question at all that Joe Johnson is a far better player with the Hawks than he ever was with the Suns. If you don't see that then you are just willfully being ignorant of the facts. There is no question that Woodson got a remarkable amount of production out of Flip Murray. Murray was waived during the season a couple times the season before he went to the Hawks as far as I know and by the end of the season he was being counted on in the second round of the playoffs. Its remarkable. (But I wouldn't use the word "developed" for Flip)

which teams was that? murray was waived(once) by the pistons(feb 22nd) but he signed with the pacers(mar 1st) right after. this guy can score and everybody knows that.

[spotatl]

Sorry- going off of memory. Waived once during the season doesn't really change the point. The Hawks got Flip off of the scrapheap and Woodson got more production out of him than anyone thought.

Edited November 25, 2009 by spotatl

[Atlantaholic]

Sorry- going off of memory. Waived once during the season doesn't really change the point. The Hawks got Flip off of the scrapheap and Woodson got more production out of him than anyone thought.

All Murray needs is a green light. When he has been on teams that let him dominate the ball on offense and do his thing he has been dynomite. He averaged like 20 ppg in Seattle one year during the first two months that Ray Allen was injured.

The reason guys like Murray, Craw and JJ have good offensive numbers with Woody is because everything he calls all game are isolations, and all three guys love dominating the basketball and going one on one... Conversely, a player like Diaw who is a guy who likes to pass and facilitate struggles with Woodson because there is very little offensive movement and no continuity on sets and offensive strategy. (aside from Isolations)

Also, JJ was obviously developed in Phoenix were he went from a dissapointing draft pick to a centerpiece of their 2004-2005 team. He averaged 19ppg on 50% shooting during the second half of that year, and we traded two first round picks to be able to sign him to a deal that was close to the Max... Obviously we were getting a player that had already broken out, not some raw experiment that Woody shaped. The only thing that changed from Phoenix to ATL was that he was the main man for us as opposed to a third or fourth option on a stacked Phoenix team.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Atlantaholic

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I don't think he developed Flip one bit. Murray has had four seasons (one with us) in which he averaged dbl digit scoring and is working on his 5th with the Bobcats now. Woody used him as he should have though; and I guess should get credit for that. Lue the same; he gave him more minutes and his scoring went up.

Lue has averaged 8.5 ppg for his career and the only season before us that he averaged dbl digit scoring was in 03/04 and he also got 30 minutes a game. I agree Woody never had a quality PG to work with until Bibby and that is sad for a franchise whose owners and gm said they wanted to build a winner. But saying Woody developed Lue and Flip is not true in my opinion either. He just gave the best PGs he had more minutes and their scoring went up, same as it did when they were given more minutes before coming to Atlanta.

Give me a break on developing JJ. The whole reason JJ was considered a top FA was because he had just put together his two best seasons in a row as a pro. If anyone developed JJ it was DAntoni. Smoove, sure we can say Woodson helped Smoove; no doubt.

I am not a detractor of Woodys coaching style; just his game plan. And I do not think Woodson got a lot of help from BK in getting him a offensive floor general one bit. But now that he has one in Bibby; its long overdue we see something more creative than ISO Joe and a three point attempt as our offensive staples.

But isn't this what other coaches do? Get a player, play him if he's good . . and if he plays well, receive credit for developing/molding him into a good player? That's what happens, right.

And let's say you're right about D'Antoni developing JJ. Does that mean that Nellie developed Steve Nash? This has to be true, if D'Antoni developed JJ.

So when Nash wins multiple MVP awards, is that because of Nellie's influence on his game, or D'Antoni's system giving Nash full control of the team?

And when JJ goes to 3 consecutive All-Star games, is that because of D'Antoni's influence on his game, or Woody trusting JJ to be Lebron-lite, running the offense almost solely through JJ?

To me, the answer is both . . to each scenario. But you guys want it one way, without giving credit to the other way. That's not reality.

Reality, is that most everyone around the league thought we overpaid to bring JJ here, including one of our owners. Reality is that everyone knew that JJ was a good player, but not a player that could be a multiple All-Star, and definitely not a player that could be the #1 guy on a winning team.

Without Woody pretty much treating JJ like he was Lebron or Wade, he would not be the player that he is today. He wouldn't have coaches gameplanning to stop him. He'd merely be a great spot-up shooter who occasionally drove to the hole, like he did most of his time in Phoenix.

To deny that Woody had a significant influence in JJ transforming to good player, to top 15 player, is simply not giving Woody any credit whatsoever.

At least you will concede on Josh Smith, which is pretty much a no-brainer.

[High5]

Funny you mention Byron Scott. New Orleans fans are loving how their young talent looks since he's gone. It's also funny how people want to praise Woodson for the improvement in Smith's game. The main difference in the way he's playing is he's not taking any 3's and playing closer to the basket. Which is what 99% of us have been calling for over the last 3 or 4 years. How many coaches would have allowed that to go on for as long as it did? And I'm not even sure how big Woodson's role was in the changes this year.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And all of this simply makes my point about Teague. If Teague plays well during the season, and Woody starts to trust him more and more, he won't get credit for it anyway. If anything, people on here will give credit to JJ and Bibby, before they do Woody. Woody is merely a bobble head doll on the Hawks, that does nothing but simply move his head, in most people's eyes.

It's just the way Hawksquawk ( and the AJC blogs) are. It's hilarious to me.

Happy Thanksgiving . . . and go Hawks. Get us a win tonight.

[thefloydian]

This really is a good comparison. Collins won 47 games his last year with the Buills. Carlisle with the Pistons is another example.

Edited November 28, 2009 by thefloydian

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This really is a good comparison. Collins won 47 games his last year with the Buills. Carlisle with the Pistons is another example.

No it's not.

In Collins case, the Bulls had won 3 less regular season games than they did the previous year. Plus he and Jordan didn't have the best of relationships. The Bulls did reach the Eastern Conference Finals that year, however, but lost to Detroit. And a lot of people were flat out shocked that Chicago fired Collins, after reaching the ECF in his 3rd year as the coach.

Collins got shafted, plain and simple. Dude was a good coach, and only got fired ( possibly ) because of Jordan, and definitely because the GM didn't like his emotional outbursts during games and thought he was too tough on the players after losses. But no way was his firing justified. He simply didn't get a chance to finish what he started. Phil Jackson the next year also lost in the ECF. It wasn't until 1991, against a hobbled Magic Johnson, did the Bulls win their first title.

In Carlisle's case, His Detroit teams won 50 games two seasons in a row. But like Collins, he also reached the ECF the year he was fired. Matter of fact, it was the first time the Pistons had reached the ECF in 11 years. But we all know what his firing was about. That was about Dumars having a chance to bring in a Hall of Fame coach in Larry Brown. He got a $25 million dollar deal to leave Philly hanging.

But Carlisle got the shaft too. Before he got there, the Pistons won 32 games. Under Carlisle, they win 50 games twice, win the division title twice, and reach the ECF. . but still got fired? Like Collins, Carlisle didn't get a chance to finish the job. And the Pistons were not going to win anything, with the team Brown inherited. They were good, but not a championship caliber team . . . until Billy Knight handed the title to them, with the Rasheed Wallace trade for Detroit's expiring contracts.

So like with Collins and Carlisle, I guess you'd be all for firing Woody, if the Hawks won 54 games and got to the Eastern Conference Finals . . . but lost. Then, when the next coach comes in to coach the players that Woody developed and made mentally tough, he'd get all of the credit, if he happen to win the NBA title the year after Woody leaves. Yeah . . that's real fair.

It'll be like a guy who does a good job on the exterior paint job of a house, but takes credit for building and designing the entire house as well.

Like I said . . . short of winning it all, people would still want Woody fired.

[MaceCase]

IIRC, the first thing Larry Brown did during the trophy award ceremony was thank Rick Carlisle for all the work he did. Meaning that despite his HOF credentials, Brown knew he couldn't recieve all the credit for taking that team to the finals. I don't know if PJ did the same for Collins though seeing as I was too young to remember.

Give Woody some credit, despite slowing down our pace considerably from our hot start we have still managed to maintain our top 5 ranked offensive efficiency while increasing our defensive efficiency from the upper teens to the lower teens. If we manage to have both within the top 10 by the end of the season then that is the mark of a championship caliber team and yes Woody should recieve at least a smidget of credit for that.