With all those injuries & no depth we were only 2 games behind last year

[jerrywest]

Ken Strickland

January 21st, 2010

9:19 pm

I was curious, so I did a little checking to see where we were, along with the other teams in our division, in comparison to last yr, and here’s what I came up with.

2008/09 2009/10

BOSTON 31-9 27-13

CLEVELAND 35-8 32-11

ORLANDO 33-9 27-15

HAWKS 25-16 27-14

MIAMI 22-19 21-20

NOW CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING:

(1) You have to consider that last yr at this time, all of the other teams in our division played better and had a better record than this yr.

(2) At this time last yr, we had defeated every team in our division at least once, which accounted for one of the their losses. So far this yr, we’ve only managed to defeat Miami.

(3) So far this yr we’ve been injury free, while last yr we lost both Smoove and Horford for extended periods during this time.

(4) With JCrawford and Joe Smith being definite upgrades over FMurray and SJones, RMorris being much improved over last yr, JCollins and JTeague adding size, speed, quickness and versatility, and the obvious improvement of JSmoove, AHorford, means we’d be hard pressed to say this yrs 2 extra wins at this point means this yrs team has accomplished more than last yrs team. WE’VE BEEN TREADING WATER AT BEST.

[tbhawksfan]

Great observation and you're right. Maybe better coaching would provide the growth we're looking for.

[Atlantaholic]

since our 11-2 start we have been treading water big time. Every big win is followed by a disappointing loss it seems. Lucky for us Boston and Orlando are playing a lot worse than last year, because we would be exactly were we were a year ago if that wasn't the case.

I believe in the talent on this team... we should be better IMHO. 1-6 there isn't a single team in the NBA with more balanced talent.

[Admin]

While I agree that we've cooled off significantly since that hot start what's not being taken into account here is the fact that some of the "bottom feeders" have gotten better, most notably Charlotte and I'd put the Knicks in that category as well and to me that's the biggest factor in why the top teams have fewer wins this year than last and why we're only slightly better.

[T21]

... another thing... we had a surprise factor goin' for us last year, while this year everybody get's prepared, ready and pumped-up before they play us...

[jerrywest]

While I agree that we've cooled off significantly since that hot start what's not being taken into account here is the fact that some of the "bottom feeders" have gotten better, most notably Charlotte and I'd put the Knicks in that category as well and to me that's the biggest factor in why the top teams have fewer wins this year than last and why we're only slightly better.

Boston got older and worse. We got 3 wins out of that. East in general got worse and West got better.

We got so much better depth, so much more experienced (Al&Smoove), so many less injuries & so much more 1 on 1 options that any change in eastern teams shouldn't be a factor.

[coachx]

I agree that the team is under-performing.

A statician just came out with an article that I posted which said the same thing.

That being said I'm still happy to be fighting for home court advantage through the 2nd round.

Hawks have to come out swinging and take care of the Bobcats tonight. Teams like the Bobcats, Knicks, and Thunder who can actually play with more energy then we do give us fits.

Edited January 22, 2010 by coachx

[Birdman316]

we are 27-14 this year:

-Detroit

-Both home games vs New York

-Chicago

Thats four games right there where we could be 31-10 and instead of being in 3rd place half game back of 2nd we could be just 2 games back of second for the #1 seed in the east and have a 3.5 game lead over Orlando.

If this team wants to win the division and not just compete for the 4th seed but possibly the #2 seed, we need to start beating teams we should beat. We are learning to beat the good teams in this league (Dallas, Denver, Portland, Boston) but we need to beat teams we should beat (Chicago, New York, Detroit).

Granted its the NBA and yes the Clippers have beaten the Lakers. Boston just lost to Detroit. Thing that seperates us from them is how often will the elite teams lose to teams that are vastly better than. You might have a hick up every now and then because its an 82 game season. But the Hawks need to be more consistant

[Plainview1981]

Boston got older and worse. We got 3 wins out of that. East in general got worse and West got better.

We got so much better depth, so much more experienced (Al&Smoove), so many less injuries & so much more 1 on 1 options that any change in eastern teams shouldn't be a factor.

The increased depth is an illusion. ZaZa and Mo are both playing worse than last year. While Crawford is more productive than last season, Bibby has become far less effective than he was last year. Truth is that Bibby/Crawford is not much more productive than Bibby/Murray.

[buckeye242424]

The increased depth is an illusion. ZaZa and Mo are both playing worse than last year. While Crawford is more productive than last season, Bibby has become far less effective than he was last year. Truth is that Bibby/Crawford is not much more productive than Bibby/Murray.

Maybe as a combo - Bibby/Crawford is not much more productive than Bibby/Murray, but that's misleading. Bibby is another year older, which at his age is significant, and his role has changed somewhat. But if you're saying a Crawford vs. Murray comparison is similar, I disagree. The increased depth is not an illusion. When you add the favorite for 6th man of the year to your roster, you depth has obviously improved.

[Admin]

Maybe as a combo - Bibby/Crawford is not much more productive than Bibby/Murray, but that's misleading. Bibby is another year older, which at his age is significant, and his role has changed somewhat. But if you're saying a Crawford vs. Murray comparison is similar, I disagree. The increased depth is not an illusion. When you add the favorite for 6th man of the year to your roster, you depth has obviously improved.

Bibby also isn't far less productive this year and he's improved in several areas. The only difference is that his usage is down this year due to us having more blowout wins and Crawford playing PG a lot.

As far as the depth is concerned I see Mo and Zaza this year vs last as a wash. Crawford is an upgrade offensively over Flip but he's nowhere near the defensive presence that Flip rarely got credit for being so figuring offense and defense I'd say that they are a wash as well. Joe Smith is an upgrade over Solo but primarily because Solo played so little and not because Joe has been the player that I thought he'd be on the offensive end but his hustling and rebounding have made the bench a little better. In theory Teague should have been a big upgrade at backup point but so far he hasn't made much of a difference.

[Plainview1981]

Maybe as a combo - Bibby/Crawford is not much more productive than Bibby/Murray, but that's misleading. Bibby is another year older, which at his age is significant, and his role has changed somewhat. But if you're saying a Crawford vs. Murray comparison is similar, I disagree. The increased depth is not an illusion. When you add the favorite for 6th man of the year to your roster, you depth has obviously improved.

Bibby didn't decline enough in 5 months to go from 15PPG to 9PPG. He has obviously lost a tad bit, but Crawford plays more minutes than Murray did and Bibby just plays less. The only huge difference between Murray and Craw is that Craw playing about 5MPG more. If I'm not mistaken, Murray averaged like 15PPG after the all star break and neither are great passers. Actually, Flip is a better defender than Crawford. Nobody off the bench has given the team anything other than Crawford. The rest of the bench has played worse than it did a year ago. There is no depth. Joe Smith is more of a name than he is an actual producer at this point in his career.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[Traceman]

Boston got older and worse. We got 3 wins out of that. East in general got worse and West got better.

We got so much better depth, so much more experienced (Al&Smoove), so many less injuries & so much more 1 on 1 options that any change in eastern teams shouldn't be a factor.

This team is CLEARLY better than last year's team. We have lost a few that we could have won but we are still on pace to win 54 games. We started hot last year and faded down the stretch but I don't think this team looks like it is about to fade at all. JJ is a little nicked right now and so is Smoove but JJ doesn't look EXHAUSTED like he did last January.

Of course Boston got older. They knew that was going to be an issue at some point. We lost two tough games to CLE but we were very much in both games (refs cheated us out of the 2nd game with their 38-16 FT discrepancy and the shot clock fiasco). ORL still has our number but we are half a game ahead of them at the moment.

The West might be better but last I checked we were 12-4 vs the West with 9 of those wins coming against teams with winning records. The up and down teams in the West play right into our strengths.

Oh yeah, WAS is in our division and we have beaten them twice so we have wins over more than just MIA in the Division. The Division records are as follows: CHA is 4-2, MIA is 5-4, ORL is 4-3, we are 3-4 and WAS is 2-5. Not a big deal at this stage of the season, particularly when we are currently sitting atop the division in the standings.

Bottom line, this team is better than last year's team and we are built to get better, not worse down the stretch. I'm sure we will see a few bumps along the way but I think we will do much better than the 22-19 that we did last year in the 2nd half.

[AHF]

This team is CLEARLY better than last year's team. We have lost a few that we could have won but we are still on pace to win 54 games. We started hot last year and faded down the stretch but I don't think this team looks like it is about to fade at all. JJ is a little nicked right now and so is Smoove but JJ doesn't look EXHAUSTED like he did last January.

Of course Boston got older. They knew that was going to be an issue at some point. We lost two tough games to CLE but we were very much in both games (refs cheated us out of the 2nd game with their 38-16 FT discrepancy and the shot clock fiasco). ORL still has our number but we are half a game ahead of them at the moment.

The West might be better but last I checked we were 12-4 vs the West with 9 of those wins coming against teams with winning records. The up and down teams in the West play right into our strengths.

Oh yeah, WAS is in our division and we have beaten them twice so we have wins over more than just MIA in the Division. The Division records are as follows: CHA is 4-2, MIA is 5-4, ORL is 4-3, we are 3-4 and WAS is 2-5. Not a big deal at this stage of the season, particularly when we are currently sitting atop the division in the standings.

Bottom line, this team is better than last year's team and we are built to get better, not worse down the stretch. I'm sure we will see a few bumps along the way but I think we will do much better than the 22-19 that we did last year in the 2nd half.

Nice post. I'll just agree with this. I don't feel like the team is playing so far under potential this year at all.

[RedDawg#8]

I so agree with a lot of whats being said. We should be better record wise. The thing is that we get so caught up in measuring ourselves against "the big 3" that we are happy to be in 3rd instead of realize the the "big 3" aint so "BIG" this season. They arent as immortal as they were last year and our goals need to be not just competing against them, but trying to get the best possible record. We could be fighting for the 1 seed right now if we would have been focused against inferior opponents.

[Traceman]

I so agree with a lot of whats being said. We should be better record wise. The thing is that we get so caught up in measuring ourselves against "the big 3" that we are happy to be in 3rd instead of realize the the "big 3" aint so "BIG" this season. They arent as immortal as they were last year and our goals need to be not just competing against them, but trying to get the best possible record. We could be fighting for the 1 seed right now if we would have been focused against inferior opponents.

Who says we aren't fighting for the 1 seed? We are only 1/2 behind 2nd seed BOS (who we hold the tiebreaker against after having beaten them 3 times) and only 3 games behind Conference leading CLE in the loss column. If we win tonight, LAL will be the only team in the WC with a better record than ours.

Do you think we are the best team in the league? The most talented team? I don't, but I think we can compete with ANY of them on a consistent basis and I think that is GREAT. We are not the best team in the league but we have a chance to not only make the playoffs but actually be a CONTENDER when we get there.

[buckeye242424]

Bibby also isn't far less productive this year and he's improved in several areas. The only difference is that his usage is down this year due to us having more blowout wins and Crawford playing PG a lot.

As far as the depth is concerned I see Mo and Zaza this year vs last as a wash. Crawford is an upgrade offensively over Flip but he's nowhere near the defensive presence that Flip rarely got credit for being so figuring offense and defense I'd say that they are a wash as well. Joe Smith is an upgrade over Solo but primarily because Solo played so little and not because Joe has been the player that I thought he'd be on the offensive end but his hustling and rebounding have made the bench a little better. In theory Teague should have been a big upgrade at backup point but so far he hasn't made much of a difference.

I disagree with Crawford and Flip being a wash, as far as impact on the team. Leadership, confidence, just a swagger he gives the team. Flip doesn't demand the respect that Crawford does from other teams. Defensively, we rely on bailing our guards out anyhow, with switching and relying on our athleticism. Flip is better defensively, but not to the point where he's just as important to the Hawks as Craws. Crawford creates a buzz, whatever it is, that just makes us better.

[Plainview1981]

I disagree with Crawford and Flip being a wash, as far as impact on the team. Leadership, confidence, just a swagger he gives the team. Flip doesn't demand the respect that Crawford does from other teams. Defensively, we rely on bailing our guards out anyhow, with switching and relying on our athleticism. Flip is better defensively, but not to the point where he's just as important to the Hawks as Craws. Crawford creates a buzz, whatever it is, that just makes us better.

It's not that Flip and Crawford is a wash. It's just that Crawford demands more minutes and that reduces Bibby's minutes and his production.

[buckeye242424]

Bibby didn't decline enough in 5 months to go from 15PPG to 9PPG. He has obviously lost a tad bit, but Crawford plays more minutes than Murray did and Bibby just plays less. The only huge difference between Murray and Craw is that Craw playing about 5MPG more. If I'm not mistaken, Murray averaged like 15PPG after the all star break and neither are great passers. Actually, Flip is a better defender than Crawford. Nobody off the bench has given the team anything other than Crawford. The rest of the bench has played worse than it did a year ago. There is no depth. Joe Smith is more of a name than he is an actual producer at this point in his career.

You answered your own question, Bibby doesn't play as much. Crawford assumed some of his role, both minutes and scoring. Flip is/was a better defender, but other than Rio, our guards aren't asked to be a shut down defender. We rely on Smoove and Horf. The difference defensively, between Craws and Flip isn't enough to think we haven't improved depth from a year ago. Across the board....we've improved by adding experience, mixed with the same crew that's been there.

[buckeye242424]

It's not that Flip and Crawford is a wash. It's just that Crawford demands more minutes and that reduces Bibby's minutes and his production.

He should demand more minutes. He's earned those minutes, especially with our team. He can play free, no restraints. It's perfect for him.

We had injuries last year that enabled Flip to play more, and have a career year. He did, because he's a one-on-one player that could score on his own. For me, I can't even compare the discussion having Crawford vs. Flip on any level. Craws wins, no matter who's getting 5 more minutes a game or what. Crawford is better for the 09-10 Hawks by a landslide....