Shaq not in Hawks plans!

[Admin]

This past season, most of the time JJ played, he was playing the three. Marvin went to the bench, Jamal Crawford came in... What do you think Joe was doing out there?

Uhh no, where are you pulling that info from? The top 5 man unit in terms of minutes played for the Hawks last year by far was Bibby-Johnson-Williams-Smith-Horford. The next 2 top 5 minutes played lineups combined don't even equal the top lineup and only in one of them was JJ playing the 3.

Now if you want to argue what position JJ was playing with our highest winning percentage and +/- lineup then that is Bibby-Crawford-Johnson-Smith-Horford, but that has more to do with Marvin being replaced in the lineup in the 4th quarter by Crawford than it does with an accurate representation of which lineup is more successful since our main lineup played nearly 3 times as many minutes together as opposed to our closing lineup and the closing lineup on a 53 win team is bound to have a higher winning percentage.

[Diesel]

Not going to put them in my sig. I like Marvins comments better. We really do not have to revisit; we will be reminded all season long IMO. Caracter is the Lakers Big Baby with more upside. Lawal will be getting playing time in Phoenix. And Alabi is a raw project, but with the Raps obvious defense and rebounding problems, he will get time as well. Did you notice btw that these three were taken by teams and GMs that have a very good draft history?

Every year, a bunch of you guys get gassed up over the next big thing in the second round. Last year, it was dude out of Augusta St. He was a foul, turnover machine. He went to China or somewhere right? Well, I have heard about those summer camp heroes for several years now and I always say the same thing, Summer Camp means nothing. In fact, if you want, we can get your Summer Camp Hero from last year in here. I don't think he's doing anything... he'd take a rookie min contract.

[Diesel]

Uhh no, where are you pulling that info from? The top 5 man unit in terms of minutes played for the Hawks last year by far was Bibby-Johnson-Williams-Smith-Horford. The next 2 top 5 minutes played lineups combined don't even equal the top lineup and only in one of them was JJ playing the 3.

Now if you want to argue what position JJ was playing with our highest winning percentage and +/- lineup then that is Bibby-Crawford-Johnson-Smith-Horford, but that has more to do with Marvin being replaced in the lineup in the 4th quarter by Crawford than it does with an accurate representation of which lineup is more successful since our main lineup played nearly 3 times as many minutes together as opposed to our closing lineup and the closing lineup on a 53 win team is bound to have a higher winning percentage.

Here's the bottom line. Crawford played 31.1 mpg last season. Joe Played 38 mpg last season. You can continue to look at 82 games and ignore the fact that when Hoford goes out and Pachulia comes in, that's a new 5 man unit... same with Smoove, same with Joe Smith... etc.

But Craw = 31.1 mpg, Joe = 38.0 mpg.. the SG position only has 48 minutes to give.

[Admin]

Here's the bottom line. Crawford played 31.1 mpg last season. Joe Played 38 mpg last season. You can continue to look at 82 games and ignore the fact that when Hoford goes out and Pachulia comes in, that's a new 5 man unit... same with Smoove, same with Joe Smith... etc.

But Craw = 31.1 mpg, Joe = 38.0 mpg.. the SG position only has 48 minutes to give.

So I should ignore 82games.com (very well respected site among actually basketball GM's) and listen to you? Maybe you should take a look at the minutes that were ACTUALLY played at each position.

http://www.82games.c...10/0910ATL2.HTM

[Dragitoff]

So I should ignore 82games.com (very well respected site among actually basketball GM's) and listen to you? Maybe you should take a look at the minutes that were ACTUALLY played at each position.

http://www.82games.c...10/0910ATL2.HTM

I think both of you are right. Joe's defense is far superior to Crawford's. On paper, he probably was playing the 2 on defense because the opposing 2 was more of a threat. I don't know that's the case. I'm just thinking out loud.

[NJHAWK]

When did they say that hte 3 million was to pay for the luxury tax? All I can ever remember them saying is that they would be willing to pay the tax for the "right player". And I do think thats the case- if a gift trade got dropped in their lap they would be willing to pay the tax. But they aren't going to pay the tax when they don't project to be a top 4 seed.

Sund absolutely said the 3 mill was for adding a veteran player instead of picking a young big at 31. If they were talking about getting a J.Collins or Randmo type instead of trying to develope a young big then they are all F'N IDIOTS.

[Diesel]

So I should ignore 82games.com (very well respected site among actually basketball GM's) and listen to you? Maybe you should take a look at the minutes that were ACTUALLY played at each position.

http://www.82games.c...10/0910ATL2.HTM

Nobody said that. I'm saying stop ignoring the other iterations where Joe is playing Sf but Zaza is in. It might not be more than our starting lineup, but Joe played a good deal of Sf and according to your stats, we were better while he was at SF than Marvin.

[spotatl]

NJhawk- I do think that the Hawks are going to end up filling the roster with someone like Jason Williams or Earl Watson.

[thescout5]

Face it guys the Hawks are just a tax write off for ASG and we are stuck with a good team but not good enought to win championships. Hard to get excited bringing the same ole team back.

:shake_puter:

[NJHAWK]

Young prospect like RandMo? Or Young Prospect like SOLO? People believe it's PG, but C is the hardest position to develop. We should know that from our History. Look at Oden and Thabeet. These are guys who were picked 1st and 5th in the draft. They are still not developing. Every year, you can pick out 5 Centers in the draft who never make it. Every year. To think that just because a Guy was a C in college that he will DEVELOP at this level is a huge crapshoot. ASG has tried that crapshoot before and failed. Let's just get a Vet C and work from there. It makes more sense where we are right now anyway. Maybe 4 years ago, we could have gone with development but right now.. Stop crying. Name your guy #31, put his name on your signature and during the year, we can see where he is?!

If I were going to put my name next to a guy it would be Whiteside because of his potential. Now if Im going with my Hungarian suspicion I would say that German kid that OK City took is going to blow up in a few years. Why you ask? Because it seems almost every time the Hawks pick a guy and trade him or a team picks a guy with a pick traded to them by the Hawks THAT GUY BECOMES A GOOD / GREAT PLAYER.

Edited July 16, 2010 by NJHAWK

[Admin]

Nobody said that. I'm saying stop ignoring the other iterations where Joe is playing Sf but Zaza is in. It might not be more than our starting lineup, but Joe played a good deal of Sf and according to your stats, we were better while he was at SF than Marvin.

We ran a lineup with Joe at SF and Zaza at C for 60 minutes last year ... all season! The rest of the time that Joe played at SF were with Horford at C for 506 minutes.

I think that what you're forgetting is the amount of minutes that Jamal played at PG last year as he played 26% of the teams minutes there, far more than the 17% of the teams SF minutes Joe played, and that Marvin played 6% of the teams minutes at PF and while that's not a lot of minutes it does account for part of where you are incorrect in your assumption.

The bottom line is that we have a big size and length advantage with Joe at SG and when we put Joe at SF we lose that advantage and we get worse defensively since Jamal and Bibby are both awful defenders, especially compared to Marvin. If you don't believe that then check out this stat, we are nearly 6 points worse per 100 possessions with Marvin off the court than we are with him on the court.

[Admin]

Face it guys the Hawks are just a tax write off for ASG and we are stuck with a good team but not good enought to win championships. Hard to get excited bringing the same ole team back.

:shake_puter:

I'd MUCH rather be "stuck" with a good team than to be the laughing stock of the league!

I think that people are also being short sighted here too as we've improved every single year with this crew and that's with very few additions but mostly from internal growth and I absolutely expect all of our starters (sans Bibby) to be improved next year and if by some miracle LD's offense actually works we might have a real shot at seeing another 5-7 game improvement in wins.

[AHF]

I'd MUCH rather be "stuck" with a good team than to be the laughing stock of the league!

I think that people are also being short sighted here too as we've improved every single year with this crew and that's with very few additions but mostly from internal growth and I absolutely expect all of our starters (sans Bibby) to be improved next year and if by some miracle LD's offense actually works we might have a real shot at seeing another 5-7 game improvement in wins.

I think we will struggle to match last year's wins even if things go well since all the top teams in the East have upgraded and we are unlikely to be as healthy as last season.

Where I hope LD's offense pays off is in the playoffs.

[NJHAWK]

Where I hope LD's offense pays off is in the playoffs.

ASG in effect has approached this offseason with the theory that every disfunction the Hawks had the last couple of years in round 2 of the playoffs were all Mike Woodsons fault. They sent a message to us imo that they feel Larry Drew is the answer to all our woes, ( if they dont add anything of note to this team ).

[Admin]

I think we will struggle to match last year's wins even if things go well since all the top teams in the East have upgraded and we are unlikely to be as healthy as last season.

Where I hope LD's offense pays off is in the playoffs.

Every year we say that all of the top teams have improved. Hell we can go back and look at the July - Sept posts the past 2 off-seasons and read the same messages. Plus don't forget that Cleveland will be significantly worse so while Miami has surpassed us Cleveland has dropped below us. And you also have to remember that Miami won 3 of 4 from us last year anyway so worst case scenario we lose 1 game there. Has Milwaukee surpassed us? I really don't think so and I think if we run a consistent offense they won't be able to compete with us since we're more athletic and skilled at nearly every position. Has Chicago surpassed us? Boozer should make them a lot better but you can't depend on him to stay healthy and other than that they haven't done much. Has Boston surpassed us? And I'm basing that off of our regular season W-L record and final standings. They have major health questions and they don't match up well with us at all.

I still see us as the 3rd best team in the East but I think we'll be a lot more competitive with Orlando just by defending them straight up and by cutting out the ISO offense. Let's not forget that we won 53 games last year without practicing offense!!

[Admin]

ASG in effect has approached this offseason with the theory that every disfunction the Hawks had the last couple of years in round 2 of the playoffs were all Mike Woodsons fault. They sent a message to us imo that they feel Larry Drew is the answer to all our woes, ( if they dont add anything of note to this team ).

Isn't that the message that the majority of the fans on this board have been sending to the ASG for years now? LD may not be the answer to our problems but I've read countless messages saying that we could replace Woodson with anybody and improve and the ASG have given us the opportunity to see if that's the case LOL.

[Sothron]

I'd MUCH rather be "stuck" with a good team than to be the laughing stock of the league!

I think that people are also being short sighted here too as we've improved every single year with this crew and that's with very few additions but mostly from internal growth and I absolutely expect all of our starters (sans Bibby) to be improved next year and if by some miracle LD's offense actually works we might have a real shot at seeing another 5-7 game improvement in wins.

And quietly get swept in the second round of the playoffs again. Hurray for mediocrity? :line dance:

[Admin]

And quietly get swept in the second round of the playoffs again. Hurray for mediocrity? :line dance:

The last time the Hawks fans cried against mediocrity they got a team that won 13 games and I'll damn sure take an exciting 53 win team who still has potential over that any day of the week.

[Sothron]

The last time the Hawks fans cried against mediocrity they got a team that won 13 games and I'll damn sure take an exciting 53 win team who still has potential over that any day of the week.

That is the difference between you and I wager most fans. I'd rather either A. have a team contending for a title or being a player away from it with the ownership willing to spend the $$$ to get said player or B. not keep a mediocre team together for several seasons and not do anything to get better. I'd rather blow it up and hope we get a superstar in the draft.

As other people have said in other threads, the worse possible outcome for the Hawks was to pay Joe to stay and then sit on hands and not spend enough to get a piece or two to actually have a shot in the playoffs. As of right now this team has no chance to get past the second round and frankly we might not even make it out of the first.

[Admin]

That is the difference between you and I wager most fans. I'd rather either A. have a team contending for a title or being a player away from it with the ownership willing to spend the $$ to get said player or B. not keep a mediocre team together for several seasons and not do anything to get better. I'd rather blow it up and hope we get a superstar in the draft.

As other people have said in other threads, the worse possible outcome for the Hawks was to pay Joe to stay and then sit on hands and not spend enough to get a piece or two to actually have a shot in the playoffs. As of right now this team has no chance to get past the second round and frankly we might not even make it out of the first.

So you think that I am in the minority in that I'd rather keep one of the youngest playoffs teams in the league together as opposed to blowing it up simply because ownership won't spend into the luxury tax? Tell you what, why don't you create a poll stating exactly that and lets see what the results are.

It seems that the popular thing to do is to overreact 1 week into free agency (like the fans do here EVERY YEAR) and start making doom and gloom predictions and trashing the ownership, management, coaching, etc. and start talking about how we aren't going to make any moves or do this or do that based entirely on believing what national commentators and local blog writers say we're going to do when in fact NONE of them know what Sund is truly thinking. As much as most of us probably like MC the truth is that he has absolutely no clue what Sund or the ASG are thinking, other than what they tell him, and don't you think that there might be a chance that they put out messages as smokescreens? Especially considering how our trades always come out of the blue?