Marketing 101: Attendance

[spotatl]

I really don't think its all about price. In the day of craigslist you can easily get tickets for 1/3 of the face value. People still don't go to the games. At some point you need a product that people will go out of their way to see.

[Guest]

I really don't think its all about price. In the day of craigslist you can easily get tickets for 1/3 of the face value. People still don't go to the games. At some point you need a product that people will go out of their way to see.

How many general consumers know about this? Your counterexample is one simpleminded anecdote that completely ignores the big picture. We have replicated the same team from last year to this year and also increased prices. Now people complain about attendance? If you don't account for price then this whole discussion is worthless.

Why are people in Atlanta choosing to go to the aquarium or the movies instead of seeing the Hawks? The opportunity cost of seeing the Hawks now is higher. This is either accounted for in increased Hawks ticket prices, decrease in prices of substitutes, or other factors that go into attending a Hawks game like traffic or day/time of game. When people look at attendance and say its low because the fans suck gives a lame excuse that is ignorant and blatantly lazy in analysis.

[frosgrim]

Atlanta doesn't trust the Hawks, or really any of their franchises. The strong belief in the city is that the teams will ultimately fail, usually in some spectacular way. The Hawks really started building momentum, and then, as others have said, the Orlando series happened. Compound that loss with the hiring of Drew instead of a name, outside coach and you get the current appathy of the fan-base. The fans don't believe the ASG is investing properly in the team, so why should they come out and support it?

The ASG is just a strange group. They do everything half-way. They give JJ the biggest contract in the offseason, and hire the lowest paid coach in the NBA. Huh? They talk about spending the MLE and going into the LT, only to let guy after guy sign with other teams, and then sell a productive pick. Huh?

Give the fan-base something to believe in and they will come out. See the attendance of the Braves in middle of the great run, and the current Falcons (or better, the early Vick era).

I think the price argument certainly should be part of the dicussion (esp. hockey prices), but the genuine lack of trust in the ASG teams is what is primarily driving the lack of attendance.

[spotatl]

Lets compare it to HOckey. Hockey ticket prices are an issue- my friends and I usually go to 1 or 2 games a year where we get 20 or so people out for the night. We would do it more often if tickets were cheaper. If I had 4 upper level tickets available to any game I would have no problem at all getting people to go.

If I were given 4 lower level Hawks tickets to the game against the Grizzlies it would be a struggle for me to give them away. I really don't know many people who would go to the games even with free tickets. Even Hawks fans would often rather watch the game in HD at home rather than going. People are just not interested in the Hawks and at least in my friendgroup its not at all about ticket price.

[Guest]

If I were given 4 lower level Hawks tickets to the game against the Grizzlies it would be a struggle for me to give them away. I really don't know many people who would go to the games even with free tickets. Even Hawks fans would often rather watch the game in HD at home rather than going. People are just not interested in the Hawks and at least in my friendgroup its not at all about ticket price.

So your minor anecdote trumps all available evidence that people respond to price changes? Ok, you've just disproved economics, congratulations!

[spotatl]

I never claimed it was anything other than anecdotal I went out of my way to say this was only among my friend group. I am talking about the depth of the problem the Hawks have. We can get cheap tickets any time we want on craigslit. If we looked harder we could probably get free tickets from the people who work at lawfirms. For my friend group, price is not the issue at all.

To talk in economics terms I do think that for the Hawks there is an inelasticity element here. I think that when people see a Hawks game as an "event" worth going to then the ticket prices are in a fine range for an event night. Baseball I think is more of a time filler where people will go just because there isn't anything else planned that night. I really do think the other barriers have more to do with the Hawks attendance than ticket price. Getting every game in HD at home, the arena being annoying to get to on game day, the Hawks not having a superstar. I do think that ticket prices are a minor part of it. If they dropped every ticket by 2 bucks tomorrow I dont think they would get a huge increase in ticket sales.

Edited November 30, 2010 by spotatl

[macdaddy]

Its a percentage thing though. If you drop the ticket prices 20% then there might be 10% of the people out there who make the decision to go. 90% still aren't convinced but you have an increase in attendence none the less.

I've turned down free tickets before because lets face it we are all busy. But remember free tickets aren't really free. Even if I don't pay for the ticket I'm dropping some money to get there and buy a beer. If I decide on sunday to take my kids to the game I'm looking at probably 100-200 bucks depending on the seats.

[lunar]

IMO

1) its the south, its still warm enough not to have to head indoors for entertainment

2) football is king in georgia, even the braves couldn't pack their stadium over a falcons, dawgs, or jackets game and they were in a playoff hunt.

3) people really weren't lying when they say that traffic sucks in atlanta in the evenings. you have to REALLY want to go to a hawks game if your willing to wait in traffic to get a good (and cheap) parking spot.

4) basketball in person isn't THAT much better than basketball on TV. especially when the arena is half full. it really has to be an event for you to have a good time, otherwise you just have a blaring speakersystem screaming DEFENSE at you all night long. i know going to playoff games were crazy especially against boston because you got to yell at people and it was loud. going to a grizzlies game in november just doesn't get people hyped up.

5) no. of games, there are 41 home games that you have the chance to go to throughout the year. most casual fans can feel good about going to 1-2 games a year just to see it as an event. again this isn't like football where there are only 5-8 home games that you can watch.

6) history: kids aren't growing up loving the hawks, partly this is the NBA's fault as they advertise the name on the back of the jersey unlike the NFL which puts the name on the front first and foremost. the other part is the hawks themselves, as they haven't a) won a championship, and b)continued winning for at least a decade. right now we are at 3 years of real winning i believe we need at least 7 more years of 48+ game winning years + 1 championship before kids become adults that really want to pay season tickets to want to watch the hawks.

in the end only winning brings fans and can trump 1-5 on the list. hawks are doing an ok job with it right now, but they still have a LONG way to go before they can look at being at the top of those charts.

[Guest]

To talk in economics terms I do think that for the Hawks there is an inelasticity element here. I think that when people see a Hawks game as an "event" worth going to then the ticket prices are in a fine range for an event night. Baseball I think is more of a time filler where people will go just because there isn't anything else planned that night. I really do think the other barriers have more to do with the Hawks attendance than ticket price. Getting every game in HD at home, the arena being annoying to get to on game day, the Hawks not having a superstar. I do think that ticket prices are a minor part of it. If they dropped every ticket by 2 bucks tomorrow I dont think they would get a huge increase in ticket sales.

Really?

Using a rough back of the envelope calculation, Hawks last year had attendance of roughly 16,730 per game through the first 9 home games (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2010_games.html). This year the Hawks average 14,343 per game through the first 9 home games(http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2011_games.html). Thats a change of -15% in attendance using the midpoint formula since you can get different results if you change the direction of calculation. This resulted after the Hawks increased ticket prices by 1.1% (http://teammarketing.com.ismmedia.com/ISM3/std-content/repos/Top/News/2010%20NBA%20FCI%203.pdf). Thats an elasticity of demand around -13.97 which tells us the Hawks are operating in the elastic portion of the demand curve. In other words, the ASG are morons for increasing price when consumers are sensitive to price changes. Since consumers are sensitive to price changes, they should be lowering price to increase their profits. To claim inelastic demand given this data so far is beyond ridiculous.

[spotatl]

Lol. I didn't think that you were actually thinking the Hawks attendance has dropped this season. I think that has far more to do with the crappy teams the Hawks have faced this year.

I think that the Hawks attendance always goes up as the year goes on once College football season is over. Plus the Hawks have faced some pretty lousy teams this year. We'll see by the end of the year how the Hawks attendance is this year vs last- I don't anticipate it being much different. Unless the team is facing a top team I really just don't think the Hawks are going to draw much on Saturday's and Sunday's during Football season. Boston is the only really big draw the Hawks have faced at home this season so far.

If you think that attendance has dropped 15% because of a 1% price increase then we'll just have to disagree and see how the season plays out.

Edited November 30, 2010 by spotatl

[Diesel]

Here's the truth.

If the ASG can get some sponsorship, then they need to drop the price significantly.

Let's say they get Sponsorship from Home Depot, SunTrust Bank, etc.. etc... And let's say that those sponsorships are a pretty penny.

Cut the price to the fan after that. I say either 50 or 60%.

Why? The more fans you have in the arena, the more better you will look on TV. Part of what made that Atlanta Boston series great was the fans going crazy in the stands. However, that was made for TV. I think this latest thing with TNT on Thanksgiving will make it so that Atlanta gets less National TV time regardless of how well we're doing.

We lower the price, we get the fans, we get the celebs, we get more fans, we build a base and then at some later date, that price can creep back up and we can recoup. However, if we be stubborn and keep the prices high, nobody wants to fight to get downtown to watch a team when it's going to cost and arm and a leg. Too much hassle.

But if you tell me, we have a good team, a full arena, and it's not expensive, I will fight to get downtown.

Not only that, but visitors will come.

The hardest part of changing the circumstances of atlanta fans is building a legacy. You do that by offering the game as a family affair and making it a place where fathers can take their sons. That's 2 generations of fans. I am a Hawks fan because I went to a slew of games in my youth.

Think about it.

[Guest]

Lol. I didn't think that you were actually thinking the Hawks attendance has dropped this season. I think that has far more to do with the crappy teams the Hawks have faced this year.

I think that the Hawks attendance always goes up as the year goes on once College football season is over. Plus the Hawks have faced some pretty lousy teams this year. We'll see by the end of the year how the Hawks attendance is this year vs last- I don't anticipate it being much different. Unless the team is facing a top team I really just don't think the Hawks are going to draw much on Saturday's and Sunday's during Football season. Boston is the only really big draw the Hawks have faced at home this season so far.

If you think that attendance has dropped 15% because of a 1% price increase then we'll just have to disagree and see how the season plays out.

Are you dense? I am controlling for time of year since I take the first 9 games, and last year the first 9 games had roughly the same caliber teams. And to say that the Hawks attendance increases as the season goes on is incorrect because it didn't last year, it actually declined slightly. Wrong again, just like your claim of inelastic demand. I don't know how anyone could argue that the Hawks are operating in the inelastic region of their demand curve and the ASG would be foolish to be operating in that region anyway unless they were trying to induce some sort of habit forming behavior.

You would be a complete fool to ignore the price increase and attempt to explain a drop in attendance is based on all these ad hoc factors. "Oh they are playing crappy teams" or "College Football" or what have you. Let the season play on, we will play roughly the same opponents at home and end with lower attendance than last year. Why? People respond to incentives.

[Joker]

What a worthless thread, there's only one response (from D) that even mentions price. You can't talk about attendance without also mentioning price, its completely ignorant to do so.

Not a worthless thread, we are having a good conversation among each other. Sometimes we need to talk about the other parts of the game that have major influence. This is the reason why we can't go over the LT, not just owners being cheap.

[Joker]

IMO

1) its the south, its still warm enough not to have to head indoors for entertainment

2) football is king in georgia, even the braves couldn't pack their stadium over a falcons, dawgs, or jackets game and they were in a playoff hunt.

3) people really weren't lying when they say that traffic sucks in atlanta in the evenings. you have to REALLY want to go to a hawks game if your willing to wait in traffic to get a good (and cheap) parking spot.

4) basketball in person isn't THAT much better than basketball on TV. especially when the arena is half full. it really has to be an event for you to have a good time, otherwise you just have a blaring speakersystem screaming DEFENSE at you all night long. i know going to playoff games were crazy especially against boston because you got to yell at people and it was loud. going to a grizzlies game in november just doesn't get people hyped up.

5) no. of games, there are 41 home games that you have the chance to go to throughout the year. most casual fans can feel good about going to 1-2 games a year just to see it as an event. again this isn't like football where there are only 5-8 home games that you can watch.

6) history: kids aren't growing up loving the hawks, partly this is the NBA's fault as they advertise the name on the back of the jersey unlike the NFL which puts the name on the front first and foremost. the other part is the hawks themselves, as they haven't a) won a championship, and b)continued winning for at least a decade. right now we are at 3 years of real winning i believe we need at least 7 more years of 48+ game winning years + 1 championship before kids become adults that really want to pay season tickets to want to watch the hawks.

in the end only winning brings fans and can trump 1-5 on the list. hawks are doing an ok job with it right now, but they still have a LONG way to go before they can look at being at the top of those charts.

1. I agree to an extent, if we had Dwight Howard and someone like Joe Johnson and CP3, I am sure it will be packed. This is an entertainment town, I know a number of ppl who go to Hawks games, just to be seen or it's a place to go to before the club. It's becoming less of that now that they are losing some popularity.

2. The Jackets don't sell out and even the Falcons were having issues selling tickets before ppl realized Atlanta is for real as a very good team. The Dawgs have a different fan-base that don't really like pro sports with the Braves being a possible exception. If the Falcons starting starting and going to SB's, they will jump on their bandwagon as well. I can't see them becoming Hawk fans.

3. I agree to an extent, Marta gets me their in good time and I get on at times from Doraville.

4. It's better in person but not too much but I feel that way about any sport.

5. I don't know, it is still fun to watch.

6. The NBA doesn't try to market the individuals but the individuals are so dominate, that naturally, you are a fan of those teams since they have a much better chance at winning than a team without a superstar. This isn't a blue collar town like Detroit. We need a superstar in Atlanta. No one in Atlanta gets national buzz. We lose, no one cares. We win, no one believes we are for real. Then when it's proving time, we prove them right. Once again, this is an entertainment town. Ppl go to games just to have their face shown. The more glamorous, the more faces. You have to understand the fan-base to understand what's needed. In order to win in this league, you need a superstar or a complete team. A complete team will not get you a title today as the league has more superstars than it had in the 90's and those superstars teams are very good or great. It's tough but Atlanta really isn't close with their current roster and everyone knows that.

[spotatl]

last year the team had Carmelo on a Saturaday. Chris Paul on a Saturday, The Heat, and the Rockets. I just can't imagine that fans would even notice a 1% increase in ticket sales. THere are a ton of reasons for a drop in attendance- I just can't believe that you are picking a 1% price increase as the only reason.

Seriously... on a $40 ticket you think that fans notice 40 cents? Ridiculous.

Edited December 1, 2010 by spotatl

[Guest]

last year the team had Carmelo on a Saturaday. Chris Paul on a Saturday, The Heat, and the Rockets. I just can't imagine that fans would even notice a 1% increase in ticket sales. THere are a ton of reasons for a drop in attendance- I just can't believe that you are picking a 1% price increase.

The Yao Mingless Rockets? Oh lordy how could I forget that huge draw!

[Guest]

Seriously... on a $40 ticket you think that fans notice 40 cents? Ridiculous.

You realize the 1% increase is referring to the average price? Its not that every single ticket has been affected in the same manner. If you delve into how average ticket prices are constructed, its based off of a weighted average for how many seats there are. There are more $10 and $25 seats than any others in Philips and those prices didn't change at all.

You are essentially showing ignorance to economics. We can empirically see people responding to price changes all the time. What you are doing is simplifying everything down into what your specific action would be, thats incorrect analysis because you aren't everyone. I still can't get over your claim of inelastic demand for Hawks tickets, get real there are a ridiculous number of alternative means of entertainment in Atlanta that should make consumers of Hawks tickets sensitive to price changes.

[spotatl]

There are more $10 and $25 seats than any others in Philips and those prices didn't change at all.

LOL. so you think $1.25 on a $100 ticket has driven attendance down? I'm genuinely curious as to who you think is staying away in droves because of a 1% increase. Particularly when you think they are STAYING AWAY rather than just taking a cheaper ticket.

Edited December 1, 2010 by spotatl

[Guest]

LOL. so you think $1.25 on a $100 ticket has driven attendance down? I'm genuinely curious as to who you think is staying away in droves because of a 1% increase. Particularly when you think they are STAYING AWAY rather than just taking a cheaper ticket.

Wow, you really have a rough time with math don't you? Can you even comprehend what a weighted average means? I'm done with this, you're an ignorant mule that can't understand economics one lick.

[niremetal]

Wow, you really have a rough time with math don't you? Can you even comprehend what a weighted average means? I'm done with this, you're an ignorant mule that can't understand economics one lick.

Who took a leak in your Wheaties this morning?

Anyone who reads this forum should know that spotatl is not "dense" or "ignorant" when it comes to the business side of the NBA. He's shown me up a few times, and I have a background in corporate finance. He was making legitimate points, particularly since cross-elasticity of demand within the sports and entertainment industries is the subject of constant research and debate both in academic circles and in boardrooms. This isn't like mathematics or even legal issues, where you can simply look up the answer by taking a class or writing a book. It's not even something preeminent economic minds agree on. It's certainly something that reasonable minds can disagree on a fan forum. So I think you crossed the line more than a bit in your responses.

I've done the same thing on occasion, I'll grant. I've made it an early New Year's resolution to cut back on that. Stay classy.

Edited December 1, 2010 by niremetal