Hawks have 4 All Star level players

[Wretch]

Hmmm...I guess it didn't post. Anywho, I'm hopping on the Al Horford Hope Train:

• Big
• VERY FAST
• VERY good handles
• Extremely good FG%
• Reliable outside shot
• Championship Pedigree
• Determination, swagger, and FIRE (unlike Marvin)

I'm sorry, but that is the makings of a special player. At the very least, he's going to be very good (some would argue he's already that). More than likely our #2 option in the near future. I have been selling Horford short because, of all things, the "expert" analysis of the 2007 draft class. But I'm officially changing my position on him from "pretty much" untouchable to absolutely untouchable. I don't think the comparisons to Amare are accurate, because Amare's faster, more agile, and looks more comfortable putting the ball on the floor. Al needs to get stronger, and obviously he needs work in the paint (and I see him taking that next step), but I can see the comparisons to Malone. Obviously, we're talking about THE power forward of the last 30 or so years, but Al looks promising.

...I also think it would work to his advantage if we start going to him more.

[exodus]

Malone was one of the strongest players in the league. He could back down almost anyone. Horford can't.

the main difference between Horford and Amare is aggression. In a full court sprint i doubt Amare has even a step on Horford. I am not convinced he is quicker either. Even before his surgery amare probably had only a 2" advantage in vertical over Horford. Now they are probably about even.

However Amare is relentless in attacking the basket and if plan A is stopped he will go to plan B and C before passing. Horford doesn't have a plan B when he goes to the basket in the rare times he attempts it but when he does actually try it he is past his man on the first step almost every time.

[AHF]

I can't think of another team with this much talent that's not being talked about as a possible contender?

As others have said, it is because our good players are not great. All the contenders have a true franchise-level player.

The good news for NBA fans is that no more than six teams -- including the reconstituted Orlando Magic -- are in the running for the championship this year...Four of them -- the Lakers, Celtics, Mavericks and Magic -- are big-paying members of the luxury-tax club. The Heat are paying close to three max salaries and would be on track to cross the tax threshold if the current system wasn't about to expire. The Spurs were tax payers last season but nosed under this year by re-signing Richard Jefferson to a smaller salary extended over four years.

We don't have a single superstar. That is the biggest reason. The second reason is that we don't have 4 All-Stars. We only have two people who have ever made the All-Star team. We are likely to have only 2 All-Stars this season and certainly no more than 3. The other reason is quality depth. Just look at the numbers and you can't really make a case for Atlanta being in with the rest of these teams - our best guy statistically isn't as good as the best guy for any of the contenders and our depth is significantly worse than any team other than the Heat who have the most elite talent of any contender:

Celtics - 2 players with a PER of 20 or more; 6 players with a PER over 14

Lakers - 4 players with a PER of 20 or higher; 7 players with a PER over 14

Mavericks - 4 players with a PER of 20 or higher; 9 players with a PER over 14

Hawks - 1 player with a PER of 20 or higher; 4 players with a PER over 14

Heat - 3 players with a PER of 20 or more (2 over 25 PER)

Spurs - 3 players with a PER of 20 or more; 8 players with a PER over 14

Magic - 1 player with a PER over 20; 7 players with a PER over 14 (and they demolished essentially this same Hawks' team in the worst rout in playoff history last season so they get the benefit of the doubt)

[Joker]

So is Amare. Amare is not a low post player.

In the past Horford didn't have the confidence to consistently take all the open midrange shots he was always given. Now he does and his making them at over a 50% clip. That is a fantasy that turned into a reality. It is much more reasonable now to believe that Horford could be effective off the dribble than it was to believe that he could shoot over 50% on jumpers. .

Amare one of the best natural scorers in the league. He doesn't need a PG to set up his scoring. He can create his own shot at a high clip. Smith and Horford can't create their own shot. That's why when Crawford and Joe was out, we lost so badly v. Boston. Only Crawford and JJ can create their own offense. Boobie Gibson can create his offense better than these two. We need a PnR PG. There are only like 7 of them. Wall, Nash, CP3, Deron, Rondo, Kidd, and B Diddy. Baron too damn expensive and lazy. Nash is the only one the block but...

[Wretch]

Malone was one of the strongest players in the league. He could back down almost anyone. Horford can't.

the main difference between Horford and Amare is aggression. In a full court sprint i doubt Amare has even a step on Horford. I am not convinced he is quicker either. Even before his surgery amare probably had only a 2" advantage in vertical over Horford. Now they are probably about even.

However Amare is relentless in attacking the basket and if plan A is stopped he will go to plan B and C before passing. Horford doesn't have a plan B when he goes to the basket in the rare times he attempts it but when he does actually try it he is past his man on the first step almost every time.

I agree about aggression and as far as speed is concerned, full court, I'd agree with you. I'm thinking about the half court though...facing up, back to the basket. in that regard, Amare is quicker and FAR more decisive with the ball. He's also more agile and plays above the rim. They're just not the same kind of player. Both have plenty of power, but Horf is lacking the finesse game.

Malone was a BIG dude, and just ripping with muscle. MANY players have a lot of work before they can come close to Malone's level, but this is why I said:

Al needs to get stronger, and obviously he needs work in the paint

Go and you tube both guys. I see a lot more of Malone than Amare...honestly, I don't see much of him in Horford's game at all.

[Joker]

Malone was one of the strongest players in the league. He could back down almost anyone. Horford can't.

the main difference between Horford and Amare is aggression. In a full court sprint i doubt Amare has even a step on Horford. I am not convinced he is quicker either. Even before his surgery amare probably had only a 2" advantage in vertical over Horford. Now they are probably about even.

However Amare is relentless in attacking the basket and if plan A is stopped he will go to plan B and C before passing. Horford doesn't have a plan B when he goes to the basket in the rare times he attempts it but when he does actually try it he is past his man on the first step almost every time.

No he couldn't. He wasn't backing down Ewing. Come on, this is an utterly retarded sentence. Malone is a PnR PF with one of the best PnR PG in the game.

The difference between Amare and Horford is skill. Amare has a lot more skill than Horford. Even though Horford is skilled, a lot of offense is hustling, making the right reads using his bbiq and his elite shooting ability. He's the perfect PnR player. Great hands, very smart, quick, and very athletic.

Edited January 10, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Joker]

As others have said, it is because our good players are not great. All the contenders have a true franchise-level player.

We don't have a single superstar. That is the biggest reason. The second reason is that we don't have 4 All-Stars. We only have two people who have ever made the All-Star team. We are likely to have only 2 All-Stars this season and certainly no more than 3. The other reason is quality depth. Just look at the numbers and you can't really make a case for Atlanta being in with the rest of these teams - our best guy statistically isn't as good as the best guy for any of the contenders and our depth is significantly worse than any team other than the Heat who have the most elite talent of any contender:

Celtics - 2 players with a PER of 20 or more; 6 players with a PER over 14

Lakers - 4 players with a PER of 20 or higher; 7 players with a PER over 14

Mavericks - 4 players with a PER of 20 or higher; 9 players with a PER over 14

Hawks - 1 player with a PER of 20 or higher; 4 players with a PER over 14

Heat - 3 players with a PER of 20 or more (2 over 25 PER)

Spurs - 3 players with a PER of 20 or more; 8 players with a PER over 14

Magic - 1 player with a PER over 20; 7 players with a PER over 14 (and they demolished essentially this same Hawks' team in the worst rout in playoff history last season so they get the benefit of the doubt)

Generally we have three players with a PER over 20; Josh move to SF hurt his overall impact and Joe injury hurt his. Generally, we have three very good players and one elite bench player who is good. You could have used this theory last season and we would be elite in that sense. The reason we aren't elite. No superstars. Two guys who are very good who can't create their own shot with no PG who can create offense for them. A SG who is very good but don't draw fouls and is not elite at anything. We have no centers that average or better. Our bench is below average if you take away Jamal but you don't so we have a good bench.

[exodus]

I agree about aggression and as far as speed is concerned, full court, I'd agree with you. I'm thinking about the half court though...facing up, back to the basket. in that regard, Amare is quicker and FAR more decisive with the ball. He's also more agile and plays above the rim. They're just not the same kind of player. Both have plenty of power, but Horf is lacking the finesse game.

Horford and Amare both had an identical vertical of 35.5" at the NBA combine and Amare has gone through microfrature surgery.

the reason Amare looks quicker isn't because he actually is quicker, it is because he is far more decisive with the ball. When Horford does drive quickly he gets by his man easily. In fact one time i remember him getting hurt on a play where he got the ball with his back to the basket on the baseline and Wade was switched out on him. Wade wasn't in contact with Horford when Horford got the ball. Horford spun and drove past Wade like he wasn't even there, leaving him in the dust. Wade ended up fouling him from behind and Horford got hurt.

If Horford is quick enough to drive past Wade he is certainly quick enough to drive past centers.

[exodus]

No he couldn't. He wasn't backing down Ewing. Come on, this is an utterly retarded sentence. Malone is a PnR PF with one of the best PnR PG in the game.

The difference between Amare and Horford is skill. Amare has a lot more skill than Horford. Even though Horford is skilled, a lot of offense is hustling, making the right reads using his bbiq and his elite shooting ability. He's the perfect PnR player. Great hands, very smart, quick, and very athletic.

Speaking of retarded Ewing played center not pf and yes Malone could have easily backed him down. You don't score 30 ppg just on pick and rolls. That is nonsense. Malone could overpower pretty much any 4 in the league one on one.

Against New York Malone would have face Oakley who is one of the few guys that Malone would have a tough time backing down.

[Diesel]

He's much closer to Malone than Thorpe. He's better than Thorpe. He's a PnR PF with Bibby who is average at the PnR. Have you been watching Hedo. Very good PnR player and with Dwight is much better.

It's questionable if he is better than Thorpe, but Thorpe's game was much more mature and reliable. At Horf's age, Thorpe was a 20/10 player shooting over 50%. By the time he hit 30, he was a ~17/11 player shooting about 60%. The reason being is because Thorpe had big hands and he could dribble and had low post moves. By the time he won his championships with Houston, he was older and on the other side of the hill.

Horford's offense is still a work in progress. He's getting better but if you claim he was better than Thorpe, you need to let the world know that you're talking about potentially.

So is Amare. Amare is not a low post player.

In the past Horford didn't have the confidence to consistently take all the open midrange shots he was always given. Now he does and his making them at over a 50% clip. That is a fantasy that turned into a reality. It is much more reasonable now to believe that Horford could be effective off the dribble than it was to believe that he could shoot over 50% on jumpers. .

Amare has speed and Ups. Horf's game is not the same.

[Joker]

Speaking of retarded Ewing played center not pf and yes Malone could have easily backed him down. You don't score 30 ppg just on pick and rolls. That is nonsense. Malone could overpower pretty much any 4 in the league one on one.

Against New York Malone would have face Oakley who is one of the few guys that Malone would have a tough time backing down.

Not really, he didn't start using his size to that extent till he lost some of his athletic ability. That's like saying Kobe or MJ was backing down players as 23 year olds. They didn't start doing it consistently till they lost some of their athleticism. Malone wasn't doing that in his 20's. He was doing what Al does but with a PnR PG and as a #1 option.

[exodus]

Not really, he didn't start using his size to that extent till he lost some of his athletic ability. That's like saying Kobe or MJ was backing down players as 23 year olds. They didn't start doing it consistently till they lost some of their athleticism. Malone wasn't doing that in his 20's. He was doing what Al does but with a PnR PG and as a #1 option.

LOL @ you pretending like you watched Malone in his twenties. Sorry but youtube clips dont count. Malone was backing guys down from Day 1. MJ was skinny as a rail when he came into the league. He didn't even venture inside the weight room until he had been in the league several years.

Malone came into the league as a big, powerful player and backed guys down routinely when he was single covered. It was his perimeter shot that developed as he got older. He didn't come into the league with a jumper or foul shooting ability.

[Joker]

LOL @ you pretending like you watched Malone in his twenties. Sorry but youtube clips dont count. Malone was backing guys down from Day 1. MJ was skinny as a rail when he came into the league. He didn't even venture inside the weight room until he had been in the league several years.

Malone came into the league as a big, powerful player and backed guys down routinely when he was single covered. It was his perimeter shot that developed as he got older. He didn't come into the league with a jumper or foul shooting ability.

... ....

Anyway, Horford and Malone came in the same way. big and powerful players who are very athletic. I still think Horford will be better than Malone if we can ever get our hands on CP3 or another elite PnR PG. The Hawks are so damn head-scratching.

[Wretch]

I used to run track and I have played MUCH basketball (though not organized). When I was 12, I could run the 100 yard dash in under 11 seconds. By the time I was in high school, I was running the 40 around 4.30-4.35 - with no training. Yet, on the court there were guys who could zip around me with ease and were MUCH better at the dribble penetration. Speed and quickness with the ball are two different things... Al and Amare may be equal at flat out sprinting, but it's a different story in game, with the ball.

Amare looks quicker with the ball because HE IS quicker with the ball. Also...

He has face up game off the dribble.

Al doesn't.

He has finesse in the air and around the basket.

AL doesn't.

Stoudemire has better handles, is more comfortable creating off the dribble (the guy makes a living off of it), is quicker with his decisions, gets to the rim, and jumps over people.

Al's best game in the post will be back to the basket, backing down guys, or taking them off the dribble for a bank shot, floater, hook, or maybe a fall away jumper.

As well, Al is already stronger at this point in his career (especially if you're looking at combine results) and has the potential to get stronger. They're just two different types of players. Amare is your Prototype PF - quick (with the ball), handles, and a jumpshot. Horford is more traditional, but he's picked up a jumper.

We need to revisit this in about 3 years when Al is pushing 250-255. lol

[exodus]

... ....

Anyway, Horford and Malone came in the same way. big and powerful players who are very athletic. I still think Horford will be better than Malone if we can ever get our hands on CP3 or another elite PnR PG. The Hawks are so damn head-scratching.

Speaking of head scratching...... Horford better than Malone? Malone averaged 28/12 in his 3rd season. He is arguably the best 4 ever, certainly top 3. Get a grip.

[Joker]

Speaking of head scratching...... Horford better than Malone? Malone averaged 28/12 in his 3rd season. He is arguably the best 4 ever, certainly top 3. Get a grip.

LOL, top 4 of all time, maybe in terms of power forwards but no way if your talking about historically great players in NBA history. Then again, it's your opinion and mines. Whatever floats your boat.

[exodus]

I used to run track and I have played MUCH basketball (though not organized). When I was 12, I could run the 100 yard dash in under 11 seconds. By the time I was in high school, I was running the 40 around 4.30-4.35 - with no training. Yet, on the court there were guys who could zip around me with ease and were MUCH better at the dribble penetration. Speed and quickness with the ball are two different things... Al and Amare may be equal at flat out sprinting, but it's a different story in game, with the ball.

Amare looks quicker with the ball because HE IS quicker with the ball. Also...

He has face up game off the dribble.

Al doesn't.

He has finesse in the air and around the basket.

AL doesn't.

Stoudemire has better handles, is more comfortable creating off the dribble (the guy makes a living off of it), is quicker with his decisions, gets to the rim, and jumps over people.

Al's best game in the post will be back to the basket, backing down guys, or taking them off the dribble for a bank shot, floater, hook, or maybe a fall away jumper.

As well, Al is already stronger at this point in his career (especially if you're looking at combine results) and has the potential to get stronger. They're just two different types of players. Amare is your Prototype PF - quick (with the ball), handles, and a jumpshot. Horford is more traditional, but he's picked up a jumper.

We need to revisit this in about 3 years when Al is pushing 250-255. lol

Quickness with the ball and quickness in general are two different things. Without the ball i would compare Horford's quickness very favorably with Amare. Their hops are no different.

The main difference is mental. Horford is frequently hesitant with the ball. Horford isn't comfortable taking guys off the dribble. Two years ago he wasn't comfortable taking all the wide open jumpers he was given. Just because he wasn't comfortable with it doesn't mean he couldn't do it.

Horford's back to the basket game just isn't that good. If it was he would dominate someone like Jeff Green when they played OKC not long ago. His strength is his midrange jumper and the quickness advantage he has over most of his opponents. His has become proficient at the former and now he needs to start working on using the latter.

[Wretch]

Confidence is one thing and I agree to an extent, but I just don't see Al with the kind of handles Amare has. I surely don't see him spinning and dunking on people the way Amare does:

You could sit here and highlight search him forever. Now, watch Horford. He can get up, but his best game is the hook, the jumper, or the game 3 feet around the basket (not at the rim):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulEF3STQ1V4

We know Malone was a great scorer. Though, I remember his game being a lot of power and finesse. Obviously Stockton and Sloan's had a lot of influence, but Stockton to Malone is like the poster for the Pick and Roll. He was big and he was strong, but I just don't remember him being the back to the basket bruiser. But this is all besides the point. Malone was a guy who could score from anywhere on the court.

This is what I remember of Malone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgzSE_54gZQ

And I see much more of Al in that.

[exodus]

Malone didn't play with his back to the basket to shoot hooks. He got all the way to the rim. He would back them down close then spin and get a layup or a foul.

Horford's problem with his back to the basket is that he can't get close enough to the rim to be effective. Ife he takes guys off the dribble he can get close to the basket with one bounce he just doesn't know what to do once he gets there. He doesn't have Amare's scoring instincts but he does have the quickness to routinely get past guys off the dribble.

Once he has them beat, which will be most of the time, he doesn't have to take a shot as soon as possible which is what he is doing now. He is shooting running hooks a lot of the time at high speed.

He would many times be better off stopping to gathering himself and putting up a fake now at then, keeping his pivot foot down and forcing the defense to commit before taking a shot. He could score more easly this way and also get to the line more.

I don't think he will ever be as effective as Amare but i think he can average 20-22.

[exodus]

Looking at Amare's shot distribution 65% of his shots are jumpers, almost identical to Horford's 68%.

Most of Amare inside points are finesse shots around the rim after outmanuevering slower players. Amare scores only 3 ppg on dunks.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10NYK12.HTM