Hawks have 4 All Star level players

[Joker]

Malone didn't play with his back to the basket to shoot hooks. He got all the way to the rim. He would back them down close then spin and get a layup or a foul.

Horford's problem with his back to the basket is that he can't get close enough to the rim to be effective. Ife he takes guys off the dribble he can get close to the basket with one bounce he just doesn't know what to do once he gets there. He doesn't have Amare's scoring instincts but he does have the quickness to routinely get past guys off the dribble.

Once he has them beat, which will be most of the time, he doesn't have to take a shot as soon as possible which is what he is doing now. He is shooting running hooks a lot of the time at high speed.

He would many times be better off stopping to gathering himself and putting up a fake now at then, keeping his pivot foot down and forcing the defense to commit before taking a shot. He could score more easly this way and also get to the line more.

I don't think he will ever be as effective as Amare but i think he can average 20-22.

Al does the same thing at PF. He doesn't get the touches, plays with much better talent and doesn't have the creator for him to be what Malone was statistically. You keep talking about Malone but we all know with touches and the player around you that you need you can score a lot more. Look at LMA. Without Roy, his stats are much better. I don't mind saying at the same stage Amare was a better scorer than Horford because it's obvious but I think Amare a better scorer than Malone too. Malone and Horford are PnR players. They will never score a lot without a PnR player. Look at Dwight, he to is a PnR player, just happens to be more focus on defense because his impact their is Bill Russell like. You are enamored with Malone but in actuality he wasn't much greater as your saying.

I just see Malone and Horford as basically the same player. Malone was more aggressive but Horford was better defensively but in reality, I don't know if that's of what's around him or not. To be honest, Horford does some things better than Malone. Malone does somethings better than Horford. Both will dunk on you if they have ahead of stem. Both are better playing a faster pace, one that Atlanta doesn't do. I just don't see a big difference.

[exodus]

You see Malone and Horford as the same player because you didn't Malone play. Put someone like Jeff Green on Malone and you would have to scrape Green off the floor. He would tire tracks all over him. Malone was stronger than Horford by far.

Malone could routinely bull his way to the basket. Horford just doesn't have the strength to back someone down under the rim.

The fact that you think Horford is a better defender shows how little you know about Malones game. He made the All-NBA Defense First Team 3 straight years. I guess Stockton gets credit for that too, right?

Edited January 10, 2011 by exodus

[Joker]

You see Malone and Horford as the same player because you didn't Malone play. Put someone like Jeff Green on Malone and you would have to scrape Green off the floor. He would tire tracks all over him. Malone was stronger than Horford by far.

Malone could routinely bull his way to the basket. Horford just doesn't have the strength to back someone down under the rim.

The fact that you think Horford is a better defender shows how little you know about Malones game. He made the All-NBA Defense First Team 3 straight years. I guess Stockton gets credit for that too, right?

You are comparing a career to a player in his fourth season. It's a lost cause. We agree to disagree. I was talking about at the same time in their careers. Everyone knows you can't get on the All-NBA teams unless your stats are great or you are a superstar. You don't see him(Horford) being great, I do. Simple as that.

[AHF]

Wow...I love Al but Malone was a much better player. No question. Jordan was to Drexler as Malone was to Horford.

On the issue of the talent on our team, my point was more that our team doesn't have either the elite talent of the contenders or the depth of the roster of the contenders. Without elite talent and without elite depth, we aren't and we shouldn't be in the same discussion as the contenders. Coming into a season, we don't have a guy, IMO, that is a guaranteed All-Star ala Lebron James, Dwight Howard, etc. JJ is a good bet; Horford is a solid bet; Josh is a 50/50 proposition, and Crawford is a long, long shot to make the All-Star game. Even if our guys make the All-Star team, they are probably never going to be a starter and almost surely won't be annual starters in the All-Star game nearly every champion has (Kobe; KG; Duncan; Wade; etc.).

[exodus]

You are comparing a career to a player in his fourth season. It's a lost cause. We agree to disagree. I was talking about at the same time in their careers. Everyone knows you can't get on the All-NBA teams unless your stats are great or you are a superstar. You don't see him(Horford) being great, I do. Simple as that.

In his 3rd season Malone..

Made All-NBA Defensive 2nd team

Made the first of 11 straight All-NBA First Teams

Averaged 28/12, getting to the foul line over 3 times as often as Horford.

No comparison.

The sad part is that you don't even realize that Horford doesn't like to roll to the basket on a pick and roll. Almost every time it is run he will take a step or two towards the basket and stop. His teamates have gotten a lot of turnovers leading Horford to the basket only to have Horford pull up short.

Wow...I love Al but Malone was a much better player. No question. Jordan was to Drexler as Malone was to Horford.

On the issue of the talent on our team, my point was more that our team doesn't have either the elite talent of the contenders or the depth of the roster of the contenders. Without elite talent and without elite depth, we aren't and we shouldn't be in the same discussion as the contenders. Coming into a season, we don't have a guy, IMO, that is a guaranteed All-Star ala Lebron James, Dwight Howard, etc. JJ is a good bet; Horford is a solid bet; Josh is a 50/50 proposition, and Crawford is a long, long shot to make the All-Star game. Even if our guys make the All-Star team, they are probably never going to be a starter and almost surely won't be annual starters in the All-Star game nearly every champion has (Kobe; KG; Duncan; Wade; etc.).

Has there ever been a team that won a title without at least one guy that made the All-NBA first or second teams? Detroit had Ben Wallace who made the 2nd team.

[Wretch]

Malone didn't play with his back to the basket to shoot hooks. He got all the way to the rim. He would back them down close then spin and get a layup or a foul.

Horford's problem with his back to the basket is that he can't get close enough to the rim to be effective. Ife he takes guys off the dribble he can get close to the basket with one bounce he just doesn't know what to do once he gets there. He doesn't have Amare's scoring instincts but he does have the quickness to routinely get past guys off the dribble.

Once he has them beat, which will be most of the time, he doesn't have to take a shot as soon as possible which is what he is doing now. He is shooting running hooks a lot of the time at high speed.

He would many times be better off stopping to gathering himself and putting up a fake now at then, keeping his pivot foot down and forcing the defense to commit before taking a shot. He could score more easly this way and also get to the line more.

I don't think he will ever be as effective as Amare but i think he can average 20-22.

I think that's pretty much what I'm saying in bold. I think Horford's best game is going to be more like that. But without the ball control, he'd be better off doing what he's doing now and refining that part of his game - which isn't bad at all.

The difference between him and Amare is dexterity and agility. Control and quickness with the ball, almost like a SF/PF hybrid but with size and power that tweeners (like Jamison) don't have. That's more than a mental adjustment for Al. Look at Amere's feet on his moves. Look at his handles... Horford is not that kind of PF. He can give you a quick and strong initial step and a few dribbles, but I don't see him having the control, footwork, and finesse to do more.

PnR basketball aside, both players creating their own shot... Amare is going to put it on the floor. He's going to go around guys (or go over them) if they get close. He has the handles, coordination, and finesse to do that. If they play him to penetrate, which I'm sure they do because they're not going to give up the high% game, he's going to hit from outside. I mean this is why Amare is putting up a solid 26ppg, good PGs aside, he's a damn near impossible cover.

I don't know that Al doesn't know what to do once he gets in there, so much as he doesn't have the control or finesse to do anything else. That's where your +10ppg is coming into play for Amare. Horford may have the speed, but he's lacking the control and agility. What Horford DOES have over Amare is size and power. If he's going to get up in the 20+ppg range, he'll have to do it differently than Amare. Against decent to good defenses, he's not going to get to the rim. Not facing up, off the dribble - and I guess that's where we differ in opinion. I think he needs to (and can) get 3-5 feet from the basket and do his work there. What he really needs to do is get stronger and compliment that with the power game. He certainly has the size, strength, and speed to be a difficult cover in that regard.

Not quite like Malone, but closer to that than a guy beating people off the dribble.

[Joker]

In his 3rd season Malone..

Made All-NBA Defensive 2nd team

Made the first of 11 straight All-NBA First Teams

Averaged 28/12, getting to the foul line over 3 times as often as Horford.

No comparison.

The sad part is that you don't even realize that Horford doesn't like to roll to the basket on a pick and roll. Almost every time it is run he will take a step or two towards the basket and stop. His teamates have gotten a lot of turnovers leading Horford to the basket only to have Horford pull up short.

We don't even look for the roll man while running PnR for there to be to be sad part. We don't have that type of team. The way are team is build is to strike with someone different any given night. For us to run another offense who be to change the offense and to change the offense you have to have a reason as such the personnel. The touches were completely different, we discussed this last year in the Horford/Malone thread. I know you like to think your right, we all know that normally it's just your opinion that to be honest, really isn't that insightful. It's whatever, Drew is trying to find the best way to win games, he just tweaking and using the talent to the best of his disposal. So for this to truly be a comparison, we need the very good to elite PnR .

Their personnel was much better for Malone than this is for Horford. We play Al at center, when we don't we play Collins who is one of the worst centers in the NBA. They started Mark Eaton who was 7'4 and was a very good defender. They had an elite PnR PG in John Stockton. We have Mike Bibby. Not to mention Thurl Bailey and Darrell Griffin spiting mins. You do realize that their pace was 98.0 while ours is 90.3 which is also could be the fact that the pace is much slower today than it was in the 80's but still it was much faster. So what's your point. I spoke my truth, you disagree, okay then.

[Wretch]

In his 3rd season Malone..

Made All-NBA Defensive 2nd team

Made the first of 11 straight All-NBA First Teams

Averaged 28/12, getting to the foul line over 3 times as often as Horford.

No comparison.

The sad part is that you don't even realize that Horford doesn't like to roll to the basket on a pick and roll. Almost every time it is run he will take a step or two towards the basket and stop. His teamates have gotten a lot of turnovers leading Horford to the basket only to have Horford pull up short.

Has there ever been a team that won a title without at least one guy that made the All-NBA first or second teams? Detroit had Ben Wallace who made the 2nd team.

I don't think so...and I would go so far as to say Rip Hamilton was highly underrated in that regard. Players said he was a nightmare to cover - guy never stopped moving.

[exodus]

We don't even look for the roll man while running PnR for there to be to be sad part. We don't have that type of team. The way are team is build is to strike with someone different any given night. For us to run another offense who be to change the offense and to change the offense you have to have a reason as such the personnel. The touches were completely different, we discussed this last year in the Horford/Malone thread. I know you like to think your right, we all know that normally it's just your opinion that to be honest, really isn't that insightful. It's whatever, Drew is trying to find the best way to win games, he just tweaking and using the talent to the best of his disposal. So for this to truly be a comparison, we need the very good to elite PnR .

Their personnel was much better for Malone than this is for Horford. We play Al at center, when we don't we play Collins who is one of the worst centers in the NBA. They started Mark Eaton who was 7'4 and was a very good defender. They had an elite PnR PG in John Stockton. We have Mike Bibby. Not to mention Thurl Bailey and Darrell Griffin spiting mins. You do realize that their pace was 98.0 while ours is 90.3 which is also could be the fact that the pace is much slower today than it was in the 80's but still it was much faster. So what's your point. I spoke my truth, you disagree, okay then.

They run the pick and roll for Horford a lot, but in his case it is the pick and pop. He prefers to catch the ball on the perimeter rather than consistently roll to the basket. He has always been that way. Another point guard isn't going to change that.

People used to say that Amare depended heavily on Nash and that he would struggle without an elite pick and roll player. Not so. Amare was beasting before Nash got there and is beasting now without him. Malone helped Stockton just as much as Stockton helped Malone.

Malone didn't get to the line 10 times a game just on pick and rolls. He got there by sheer force in an era where much more contact was allowed.

[Joker]

They run the pick and roll for Horford a lot, but in his case it is the pick and pop. He prefers to catch the ball on the perimeter rather than consistently roll to the basket. He has always been that way. Another point guard isn't going to change that.

People used to say that Amare depended heavily on Nash and that he would struggle without an elite pick and roll player. Not so. Amare was beasting before Nash got there and is beasting now without him. Malone helped Stockton just as much as Stockton helped Malone.

Malone didn't get to the line 10 times a game just on pick and rolls. He got there by sheer force in an era where much more contact was allowed.

We don't use the PnR to set up none of the bigs, Al, Smoove, Zaza, etc. We use it to create space for JJ or Jamal or to start the offensively sets not for our bigs to score. That's what you don't understand and seemingly you probably won't unless we land a PG who is very good or elite at the PnR.

LOL, Amare wasn't even that great at the PnR, much better at the pick and pop, he was amazing at finding the right places to score when Nash ran like a chicken to create space for the offense when defenses clued in.

Malone helped Stockton just as much as Stockton helped Malone.

Agreed

He got the touches that Al never will get with this personnel. Simple as that and Stockton could break a defense down like Nash and create an easy opportunity for space. Bibby rarely breaks a defense down rarely has the ability to do so.

[exodus]

We don't use the PnR to set up none of the bigs, Al, Smoove, Zaza, etc. We use it to create space for JJ or Jamal or to start the offensively sets not for our bigs to score. That's what you don't understand and seemingly you probably won't unless we land a PG who is very good or elite at the PnR.

LOL, Amare wasn't even that great at the PnR, much better at the pick and pop, he was amazing at finding the right places to score when Nash ran like a chicken to create space for the offense when defenses clued in.

Agreed

He got the touches that Al never will get with this personnel. Simple as that and Stockton could break a defense down like Nash and create an easy opportunity for space. Bibby rarely breaks a defense down rarely has the ability to do so.

They routinely run pick and rolls with Horford and he routinely takes a step or two and then stops. He has always been that way.

If he wants to increase his scoring he needs to look to drive to the basket more often whether it is on iso's or pnr. That is on him. I believe he has the ball handling ability and athleticism to do it, but it is something he has to work on. he is not an instictive player and that to me is his biggest problem on offense. He seems to have to think things through before he acts.

[Plainview1981]

It should also be noted that the claim of 4 all stars is overrated. Jamal Crawford is not an all-star and Josh and Al are Fringe all stars. Just something to keep in mind.

[AHF]

Has there ever been a team that won a title without at least one guy that made the All-NBA first or second teams? Detroit had Ben Wallace who made the 2nd team.

To your point, none of our guys are close to making 1st or 2nd team All-NBA and none of them have made it at any point in their career.

In recent years, the only one I could find was 2005 when Hakeem was somehow only a 3rd team guy.

2010 & 2009 Kobe

2008 KG

2007 Duncan

2006 Shaq & Wade

2005 Duncan

2004 Wallace

2003 Duncan

2000 - 2002 Kobe & Shaq

1999 Duncan

1996-1998 Jordan (and Pip some of the time)

1995 Hakeem 3rd team

1994 Hakeem 1st team

[exodus]

Hakeem 3rd team? Wow. I would guess DRob and Shaq were the guys ahead of him.

Was that the year that Hakeem clowned Drob in the playoffs? That was one of the most amazing playoff performances i have ever seen from any player.

Edit for nbasuperstar.

Horford ain't got it like that.

Edited January 10, 2011 by exodus

[JTB]

You live by the shot, you die by the shot.

We have talent, but it's centered around the 2-4 positions. We have 2 missing skillsets:

1. Floor General.

In a motion offense, it's not as needed, however, a true floor general will enhance the motion.

2. Low Post scorer.

Neither Al nor Smoove is a traditional back to the basket low post scorers. PLUS, we don't have guards or forwards that can score by driving. That means that we are a jump shooting team. We give token advances towards the rim. Therefore, good teams just pack it in, keep a hand in our faces and dare us to shoot. Our answer has been swing the ball and take the open shot. Well, that looks pretty when the shots are falling, but it's a mess when they aren't. So you see we have guys who can score and who knows all the moons might line up, but without that low post threat either by traditional low post play or by somebody attacking the goal, we can't get past really good teams.

excellent and this is the one thing we dont do offensively very well, we also dont drive as much as we should but I think crawford can change that himself cause with his dribbles he can penetrate the lane and get in there . the question is can he find the open man after the penetration? As for low post scoring Al and josh just have to get better.