New BS Report

[Joker]

By what measurement are you using to determine that they're equal or that Ellis is better? And again how are you determining that Curry hasn't shown he can hang with the top PGs?? Curry is in his 2nd year and he's already a borderline All-Star and he's putting up tremendous #'s for a PG, let alone one in his 2nd year playing for a team full of chuckers. But I guess since the stats don't back up your claim that Ellis is better then we can't rely on stats stats stats but I'm betting if the stats proved Ellis were better you'd be all about using them.

No, he's not.

You want to believe Curry is God, I think he's not. He's playing with David Lee who is statistically better than Smoove last year. Ellis PER is almost the same as Joe and what is their record. I think he's an above average PG who is very talented, simple as that. I watched a lot of their games and I don't believe he's close to the answer for us unless he's an addition without trading Smith, Horford, or Joe.

[exodus]

Around 35 mins in Simmons said he'd pick Noah over Horford then ended with:

Noah has been Horford's b!atch since he came into the league.

[AHF]

Around 35 mins in Simmons said he'd pick Noah over Horford then ended with:

Let me step out on a limb and say Simmons hasn't seen enough of Horford to make an educated opinion on this. Simmons likes entertaining players and Noah is more out there than Al. At Florida, Al was the cruchtime guy for the Gators and would be again if they were in the same backcourt.

[AHF]

Curry just hasn't shown that he can hang with the top PG as Ellis has proved at SG

Ellis isn't close to the top SGs in my book. It will surprise me if he is ever an All-Star. His best accolades will be his ppg numbers (so long as you ignore the fga number).

when you mention trades and Smoove for either one of these guys, you get a reaction from me and it's not positive

Where did I mention trading Smoove for one of these guys on this thread? All I did was point out how Ellis doesn't compare in value to either Smoove (the guy being discussed for possible trades) or Curry (the other player involved in GS trade rumors).

[Joker]

Ellis isn't close to the top SGs in my book. It will surprise me if he is ever an All-Star. His best accolades will be his ppg numbers (so long as you ignore the fga number).

Where did I mention trading Smoove for one of these guys on this thread? All I did was point out how Ellis doesn't compare in value to either Smoove (the guy being discussed for possible trades) or Curry (the other player involved in GS trade rumors).

He's A.I. lite and you don't even like A.I. so that understandable that you don't like Ellis. I am okay with Ellis to be honest but I like Curry more but Curry isn't as good as Ellis.

I didn't say you in particular but the main point of this topic was Ellis for Smoove or Curry for Smoove correct?

[Admin]

No, he's not.

You want to believe Curry is God, I think he's not. He's playing with David Lee who is statistically better than Smoove last year. Ellis PER is almost the same as Joe and what is their record. I think he's an above average PG who is very talented, simple as that. I watched a lot of their games and I don't believe he's close to the answer for us unless he's an addition without trading Smith, Horford, or Joe.

I want to believe he's God? Talk about going out on a limb!! Since they're both on the same team I think that comparing them to each other statistically seems fair, don't you?

PLAYER			GP	GS	MIN	PPG	OFFR	DEFR	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TPG	FPG	A/TO	PER

Monta Ellis, SG		50	50	41.3	25.2	0.6	2.9	3.5	5.5	2.24	0.26	3.3	2.8	1.7	19.2

Stephen Curry, PG	42	42	34.2	19.0	0.5	3.1	3.6	6.0	1.81	0.31	3.0	3.3	2.0	20.2

[/code]




So Curry is playing 7 minutes fewer a game and he gets more rebounds,  more assists, similar steals and blocks #'s and has a higher PER, plus  he's been in the league what 4 years less and has to play PG?  And  somehow you think that Ellis is the better player?  



[code]

PLAYER			FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	AFG%

Monta Ellis, SG		9.4	20.5	.457	1.6	4.4	.359	4.9	6.3	0.77	7.8	16.1	.483	1.229	0.50

Stephen Curry, PG	7.0	14.5	.478	1.9	4.5	.411	3.3	3.5	0.94	5.1	10.0	.508	1.309	0.54

And looking at their shooting statistics Curry shoots a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT% so he's got Monta beat there as well.

So tell me, how is Monta better?

[Joker]

I want to believe he's God? Talk about going out on a limb!! Since they're both on the same team I think that comparing them to each other statistically seems fair, don't you?

PLAYER			GP	GS	MIN	PPG	OFFR	DEFR	RPG	APG	SPG	BPG	TPG	FPG	A/TO	PER

Monta Ellis, SG		50	50	41.3	25.2	0.6	2.9	3.5	5.5	2.24	0.26	3.3	2.8	1.7	19.2

Stephen Curry, PG	42	42	34.2	19.0	0.5	3.1	3.6	6.0	1.81	0.31	3.0	3.3	2.0	20.2

So Curry is playing 7 minutes fewer a game and he gets more rebounds, more assists, similar steals and blocks #'s and has a higher PER, plus he's been in the league what 4 years less and has to play PG? And somehow you think that Ellis is the better player?

PLAYER			FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	2PM	2PA	2P%	PPS	AFG%

Monta Ellis, SG		9.4	20.5	.457	1.6	4.4	.359	4.9	6.3	0.77	7.8	16.1	.483	1.229	0.50

Stephen Curry, PG	7.0	14.5	.478	1.9	4.5	.411	3.3	3.5	0.94	5.1	10.0	.508	1.309	0.54

And looking at their shooting statistics Curry shoots a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT% so he's got Monta beat there as well.

So tell me, how is Monta better?

Kevin Love #'s

Al Horford #'s

adv. Love

Numbers don't matter if I don't think you are that good. He's above average, I watch too many GS games. I have been saying the same thing since the beginning. It's not like I am saying he sucks like I used to say about Smoove his 2nd year in the league. I just think he's above average as a PG. He is very talented. But so is Beasley, so is O.J. Mayo, so is D.J. Augustin, but guess what. I would never trade Josh Smith for any of them. I would rather get one of the very talented guys for cheap who fit and turn them into a great player for us instead of spending a high impact player like Smoove. I don't see how Curry is better than Ellis watching the game. Curry=Felton in my mind right now, in fact, I think Felton is better using my eyes. I would say Smoove is better than Garnett stat wise but would anyone else say he's better overall. Ellis gets a lot of attention, Curry doesn't. People respect him but he's not going to beat you like Ellis can. I just don't see the comparisons. Even the owner of GS said he rather keep Ellis as an untouchable. No mention of Curry.

Edited February 8, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Admin]

Kevin Love #'s

Al Horford #'s

adv. Love

Numbers don't matter if I don't think you are that good. He's above average, I watch too many GS games. I have been saying the same thing since the beginning. It's not like I am saying he sucks like I used to say about Smoove his 2nd year in the league. I just think he's above average as a PG. He is very talented. But so is Beasley, so is O.J. Mayo, so is D.J. Augustin, but guess what. I would never trade Josh Smith for any of them. I would rather get one of the very talented guys for cheap who fit and turn them into a great player for us instead of spending a high impact player like Smoove. I don't see how Curry is better than Ellis watching the game. Curry=Felton in my mind right now, in fact, I think Felton is better using my eyes. I would say Smoove is better than Garnett stat wise but would anyone else say he's better overall. Ellis gets a lot of attention, Curry doesn't. People respect him but he's not going to beat you like Ellis can. I just don't see the comparisons. Even the owner of GS said he rather keep Ellis as an untouchable. No mention of Curry.

Sorry but #'s do matter ... especially when comparing #'s of teammates. As to your thought that Ellis is better, well you just keep going off of that eyeball test your using and the rest of us will continue to know that Curry is better now and will almost certainly continue to increase the gap over the next decade.

[Joker]

Sorry but #'s do matter ... especially when comparing #'s of teammates. As to your thought that Ellis is better, well you just keep going off of that eyeball test your using and the rest of us will continue to know that Curry is better now and will almost certainly continue to increase the gap over the next decade.

Josh Smith #'s, most will say those overall #'s are better than the other Hawks outside of Joe. But why does HS want him traded over Joe and Horf. Smith seems to be the most talented. #'s don't lie. Smith was the best Hawk last season. #'s don't lie, Smith was the most important player three years ago. Look at his stats, they were amazing. #'s don't lie. You keep using the eyeball test thinking Horford and Joe are better and I am going watch Smith win MVP and DPOY because #'s don't lie.

[exodus]

Ellis isn't close to the top SGs in my book. It will surprise me if he is ever an All-Star. His best accolades will be his ppg numbers (so long as you ignore the fga number).

Where did I mention trading Smoove for one of these guys on this thread? All I did was point out how Ellis doesn't compare in value to either Smoove (the guy being discussed for possible trades) or Curry (the other player involved in GS trade rumors).

Ellis is averaging 25ppg and his TS% is actually higher than Smith's. If we are going to trade Smith it is doubful we can do better. Smith has some baggage of his own and isn't an All-Star either.

[AHF]

He's A.I. lite and you don't even like A.I. so that understandable that you don't like Ellis. I am okay with Ellis to be honest but I like Curry more but Curry isn't as good as Ellis.

I didn't say you in particular but the main point of this topic was Ellis for Smoove or Curry for Smoove correct?

The bold probably cuts to the heart of it for both of us.

What does the italicized text mean?

I think the main point of this thread was Ellis since the thread was about trade rumors of Smoove for Ellis. I do think it invites comparisons to Curry since Curry is also involved in rumors and that may stretch to Smoove/Curry discussion as well so that is fair.

[Crank]

I dont think its a matter if could JJ and Ellis work because im sure they could but the entire point of trading Smoove would be to change things up however acquiring Ellis would just be a continuance of things we are already doing at a high level .

before I would trade Josh for Ellis I would trade Josh to Houston for Brooks and any two Brad Miller,Battier,Scola,Chuck Hayes

this adds a young quality pg to the team,veteran toughness,defense ,rebounding and scoring.

I then give us a 2 year window and its bring on Miami and Boston .

[Joker]

The bold probably cuts to the heart of it for both of us.

What does the italicized text mean?

I think the main point of this thread was Ellis since the thread was about trade rumors of Smoove for Ellis. I do think it invites comparisons to Curry since Curry is also involved in rumors and that may stretch to Smoove/Curry discussion as well so that is fair.

I like what Curry brings to the table as a player more than Ellis but Ellis is a better player. I think Smoove is the most talented player on this team. I like what Horford brings more and Horford is also very talented. Him and Smoove are both very good and talented players. I think Ellis is very good and talented but I think Curry is very talented but is an above average PG. He just isn't great that position yet. The talent there but he is still growing. Talent is much different than what you actually are. O.J. Mayo is very talented but he's only average at PG/SG and in Memphis he's actually poor as a PG. Smith was very talented as a 3rd year player but he was just an average PF to me. A year later he was above average and FF to today and he's very good. An All Star level talent.

[yungsta]

Sorry but there is NO way golden state is giving up ellis. There have been plenty of teams that tried to get ellis and failed. golden state really likes ellis.

[AHF]

Ellis is averaging 25ppg and his TS% is actually higher than Smith's. If we are going to trade Smith it is doubful we can do better. Smith has some baggage of his own and isn't an All-Star either.

Smith is better statistically in my estimation and the non-statistically reflected defensive impact is a huge difference. Given the need of Ellis to dominate the ball, I don't see how he would improve our team at the end of the day and I think he could be a big drain. A team with a lead guy like Ellis has a low ceiling and a team where Ellis isn't the lead guy is a big risk for chemistry problems.

For scoring, this season Ellis scores less efficiently than Horford, Bibby, Marvin and Crawford and is basically equally efficient scoring as JJ and Smoove. The two prior seasons he shot .517 ts% and .503 ts% so I don't see the big efficiency upgrade from Smoove or JJ to Ellis.

I agree Josh has his own baggage but I'll take the defensive force with the offensive issues over the guy who will have trouble fitting in on offense unless he is the alpha dog and who doesn't impact the game defensively - especially when the guy you are considering trading for is a small with a much worse career history of PER & win shares compared to the big.

Here are the numbers the last 3 years:

Monta Ellis 21.6 pp36 - .524 ts% - 3.5 rp36 - 4.6 ap36 - 3.1 top36 - 1.9 sp36 - 0.3 bp36 - 28.5% Usage Rate - 17.2 PER - 0.048 WS/48

Josh Smith 16.2 pp36 - .535 ts% - 8.4 rp36 - 3.5 ap36 - 2.5 top36 - 1.5 sp36 - 1.9 bp36 - 22.8% Usage Rate - 19.2 PER - 0.127 WS/48

Edited February 8, 2011 by AHF

[Admin]

Josh Smith #'s, most will say those overall #'s are better than the other Hawks outside of Joe. But why does HS want him traded over Joe and Horf. Smith seems to be the most talented. #'s don't lie. Smith was the best Hawk last season. #'s don't lie, Smith was the most important player three years ago. Look at his stats, they were amazing. #'s don't lie. You keep using the eyeball test thinking Horford and Joe are better and I am going watch Smith win MVP and DPOY because #'s don't lie.

Smith has the 3rd highest PER on the Hawks this year, slightly behind JJ, and that falls in line with the truth that he's not the best player on the team THIS YEAR.

Last year Smith had the highest PER on the team, the highest of his career by far, and better than JJ has ever put up and there could absolutely be an argument that he was our best player last year. FYI he was 2nd in DPOY voting last year.

In 08-09 Smith had the 2nd highest PER on the team, slightly ahead of Horford and he was clearly not the best player on the team, but you could argue that he was the most important since he, unlike no other, has the ability to positively or negatively influence the team and that is still true today.

In 07-08 Smith had the highest PER on the team and again you could argue that he was the best and most valuable player on the team.

I could go on and on here but the the facts are that Smith has consistently been one of the 2 best players on the team and the #'s prove it ... just as the #'s prove that in his 2nd year Curry is already better than Ellis is.

[exodus]

Smith is better statistically in my estimation and the non-statistically reflected defensive impact is a huge difference. Given the need of Ellis to dominate the ball, I don't see how he would improve our team at the end of the day and I think he could be a big drain. A team with a lead guy like Ellis has a low ceiling and a team where Ellis isn't the lead guy is a big risk for chemistry problems.

For scoring, this season Ellis scores less efficiently than Horford, Bibby, Marvin and Crawford and is basically equally efficient scoring as JJ and Smoove. The two prior seasons he shot .517 ts% and .503 ts% so I don't see the big efficiency upgrade from Smoove or JJ to Ellis.

I agree Josh has his own baggage but I'll take the defensive force with the offensive issues over the guy who will have trouble fitting in on offense unless he is the alpha dog and who doesn't impact the game defensively - especially when the guy you are considering trading for is a small with a much worse career history of PER & win shares compared to the big.

Here are the numbers the last 3 years:

Monta Ellis 21.6 pp36 - .524 ts% - 3.5 rp36 - 4.6 ap36 - 3.1 top36 - 1.9 sp36 - 0.3 bp36 - 28.5% Usage Rate - 17.2 PER - 0.048 WS/48

Josh Smith 16.2 pp36 - .535 ts% - 8.4 rp36 - 3.5 ap36 - 2.5 top36 - 1.5 sp36 - 1.9 bp36 - 22.8% Usage Rate - 19.2 PER - 0.127 WS/48

In his last injury free season (07/08) Ellis had a TS% of 58% which is easily better anything that Smith and JJ have done in the last 5 years. He was hurt the last two years. he only played 25 games a couple of years ago.

A big man will get more easy looks inside than a small guard. Monta averages 9 ppg more than Smith while being just as efficient if not more so.

Comparing him to a center is a bit silly as is comparing him to low volume scorers.

Edited February 8, 2011 by exodus

[Dragitoff]

I think one thing people are failing to realize is regardless of whether Ellis, Curry, or Smoove is the better player, we have to look at the team as a whole. Which squad is better?

Starting 5

Bibby

Johnson

Williams

Smith

Horford

Bench rotation: Crawford, Evans, Pachulia (primary subs)

of

Starting 5

Ellis

Johnson

Williams

Horford

Collins

Bench rotation: Crawford, Bibby, Evans, Pachulia, Powell (primary subs)

Personally, I think we're better off now because Powell is forced into more minutes without Smoove as is Collins. While I like Collins against certain teams, I think Ellis is an uptempo PG that Collins wouldn't flow as well with since he's slower and more deliberate than Horford.

The previous discussion was Curry and Biedrins for Smith. That's more of a complete package because it gives the Hawks a quicker, more athletic center to pair with Horford down low. He's a better rebounder and shot-blocker than Collins. In that manner, I think it's the better team.

Hollinger's article about LeBron as MVP talks about the weakness of the Heat's supporting casts outside Wade and Bosh. While we all clamor for a Big 3 scenario in Atlanta, I'd rather have a team stacked with guys that fit a need as opposed to just getting upgrades at one position and creating a deficiency at another. Every team needs scorers. Every team needs defenders. Every team needs rebounders. Every team needs facilitators.

[Seano]

Somewhat off-topic to the thread, but boy it's disappointing to think that we took Salim Stoudemire 10 spots ahead of Monta Ellis in the second round of the 2005 NBA draft, and I bring that up because we were linked to and had supposed interest in both players there in the second round. Monta was just so small at that time though, I mean he was truly tiny and weighed something like 165 pounds, so there were a lot of questions as to whether he'd ever develop a body able to hold up to the rigors of the NBA game. It's just sad though, all those draft picks we utterly whiffed on, and if we had taken Monta, then obviously this trade speculation would never be taking place.

And RE: the trade speculation, Smoove for Monta.....uhmmmm, how about NO FRICKEN WAY. No way, man. In my opinion that would be an absolutely awful trade for us.

[99PROBL3MS]

I disagree with Ellis being a bad fit. If this team can find a way to fit Crawford in, I don't see how it couldn't work with Ellis. He would give us exactly what we need in someone that can get to the paint and get to the foul line. Ellis would take a ton of pressure off of JJ at that end.

It would also strengthen the bench to have Bibby running point with that second unit. The challenge would be finding a solid defensive big and quality bench scorer. Okafor for Crawford is my personal pipedream.

G Joe Johnson

G Monta Ellis

SF Marvin Williams

PF Al Horford

C Emeka Okafor