New BS Report

[Joker]

Exactly and JJ would also not have to worry about guarding PGs anymore. With a scoring talent like Ellis in tow you can now make Jamal available and there just so happens to be a team in the market for a scoring guard and have a center that they will only trade for another expiring (Sacramento)

So if the series of trades were like Josh for Monta then Jamal+Mo for Dalembert are we better? Don't know, it's just interesting because it keeps us out the lux tax this season and maintains our cap flexibility next season while bringing in fresh blood. To be a Hawk fan these days you have to be more of an accountant than a talent evaluator.

Ellis can't defend PG's. They blow right pass him like they do Curry. He is better defending SG where he can play passing lanes and pick off lazy handles like A.I. used to do. Daly sucks too, he's marginal. We need to be contenders now or in a year or two when we make deals, these deals do none of that for us. Just makes us worst or in the same position with less mobility to move up.

We have to know our comp:

Boston

Orlando

New York since Melo will be there

Miami

Chicago

We know that Boston and Chicago have a PG and a great starting five.

We know that NYK can score better than anyone and have two top 10 players.

We know Miami has three top 15 players.

Orlando has Dwight.

We know we have three top 25 players. We need to keep our three together since their young high impact players and under manageable contracts.

We know we need to get an impact PG or C. We know we are limited in resources. That's what we know. We need to look where we can get a potential high impact PG or C or get an older high impact PG or C. Since there aren't any high impact Centers on the market, we need to look at PG's. That's what ASG needs to do. Find away to get a (potential) high impact PG, it could be Steph Curry without trading Smith, Horford, or Joe.

[AHF]

That's great in all but Ellis is a much better scorer, draws a lot of double teams, isn't just a product of the system like Curry is. Ellis can score in Indiana, New York, Atlanta, Miami, LA, anywhere.

See I see it the exact opposite way. You can plug Curry into any system and he will enhance that team's offense. He can score with or without the ball and he will be highly efficient while doing it. Ellis will always dominate the ball anywhere he goes and will never be notably efficient doing it.

To use your example, Curry would be deadly in LA and would enhance the scoring talents of Kobe and Gasol by spreading the floor and killing people that doubled on his other teammates. Ellis would struggle in LA because he would be the 3rd scoring option and would not be able to pound the ball like he needs to do to set himself up to score. In short, Ellis would be a disaster for the Lakers while Curry would blend in easily and effectively.

For being a "much better scorer", Ellis sure doesn't shoot the ball nearly as well or even produce that much more (25 ppg v. 19 ppg) despite being given free reign for his volume scoring approach.

[capstone21]

See I see it the exact opposite way. You can plug Curry into any system and he will enhance that team's offense. He can score with or without the ball and he will be highly efficient while doing it. Ellis will always dominate the ball anywhere he goes and will never be notably efficient doing it.

To use your example, Curry would be deadly in LA and would enhance the scoring talents of Kobe and Gasol by spreading the floor and killing people that doubled on his other teammates. Ellis would struggle in LA because he would be the 3rd scoring option and would not be able to pound the ball like he needs to do to set himself up to score. In short, Ellis would be a disaster for the Lakers while Curry would blend in easily and effectively.

For being a "much better scorer", Ellis sure doesn't shoot the ball nearly as well or even produce that much more (25 ppg v. 19 ppg) despite being given free reign for his volume scoring approach.

Curry is also a facilitator where Ellis is a me first player

[Admin]

See I see it the exact opposite way. You can plug Curry into any system and he will enhance that team's offense. He can score with or without the ball and he will be highly efficient while doing it. Ellis will always dominate the ball anywhere he goes and will never be notably efficient doing it.

To use your example, Curry would be deadly in LA and would enhance the scoring talents of Kobe and Gasol by spreading the floor and killing people that doubled on his other teammates. Ellis would struggle in LA because he would be the 3rd scoring option and would not be able to pound the ball like he needs to do to set himself up to score. In short, Ellis would be a disaster for the Lakers while Curry would blend in easily and effectively.

For being a "much better scorer", Ellis sure doesn't shoot the ball nearly as well or even produce that much more (25 ppg v. 19 ppg) despite being given free reign for his volume scoring approach.

I think that if a poll were conducted you'd find that the overwhelming majority would agree with you that Curry is the better player and it's really not even close.

[Joker]

See I see it the exact opposite way. You can plug Curry into any system and he will enhance that team's offense. He can score with or without the ball and he will be highly efficient while doing it. Ellis will always dominate the ball anywhere he goes and will never be notably efficient doing it.

To use your example, Curry would be deadly in LA and would enhance the scoring talents of Kobe and Gasol by spreading the floor and killing people that doubled on his other teammates. Ellis would struggle in LA because he would be the 3rd scoring option and would not be able to pound the ball like he needs to do to set himself up to score. In short, Ellis would be a disaster for the Lakers while Curry would blend in easily and effectively.

For being a "much better scorer", Ellis sure doesn't shoot the ball nearly as well or even produce that much more (25 ppg v. 19 ppg) despite being given free reign for his volume scoring approach.

LA doesn't need him to play defense either, that's why they still have Fisher who plays about as much of it as Bibby. That's a major upgrade, you are naming teams who have terrible PG's, well yeah, they could use Curry, no question about it but at what cost. LAL is not trading Gasol or Kobe for Curry. Of course he can help teams but we weren't talking about that, we were talking about his overall abilities. He isn't better than Ellis or as good as Ellis. Same holds true in comparisons to Smoove.

[Dragitoff]

Is it possible all this Smoove to GS talk has validity except as a means to bring Nash here? I started a thread in the trade section something like this:

Atlanta gets: Nash, Hill, Biedrins

Phoenix gets: Ellis, Wright, 2011 ATL 1st.

Golden St. gets: Smoove, Marvin, and Mo

[AHF]

LA doesn't need him to play defense either, that's why they still have Fisher who plays about as much of it as Bibby. That's a major upgrade, you are naming teams who have terrible PG's, well yeah, they could use Curry, no question about it but at what cost. LAL is not trading Gasol or Kobe for Curry. Of course he can help teams but we weren't talking about that, we were talking about his overall abilities. He isn't better than Ellis or as good as Ellis. Same holds true in comparisons to Smoove.

See I disagree with your statement that Ellis' overall abilities are better. I'll take the guy putting up better numbers except 6 ppg that doesn't have to be the focal point of the offense over the guy who needs to dominate the ball to volume score. LA was your example of a team where Ellis would be successful scoring. They are a good example because they are one of many, many teams where Curry would be the more successful player because of his stronger overall abilities. The ability to play within a team identity is very important in the NBA and Ellis seems really lacking to me in that area while Curry is much stronger.

I have a hard time coming up with any teams that would be better with Ellis as their PG rather than Curry. Are there some teams you have in mind?

[coachx]

I think that if a poll were conducted you'd find that the overwhelming majority would agree with you that Curry is the better player and it's really not even close.

+ 1,000

[Admin]

Is it possible all this Smoove to GS talk has validity except as a means to bring Nash here? I started a thread in the trade section something like this:

Atlanta gets: Nash, Hill, Biedrins

Phoenix gets: Ellis, Wright, 2011 ATL 1st.

Golden St. gets: Smoove, Marvin, and Mo

That's not nearly enough for me to give up one of our best players, plus a productive starter and a 1st. I like Nash and Hill but they're both on their last legs and might play another year tops and Biedrins is a borderline starter. This trade probably makes us better this year but we'd be in semi-rebuilding mode in another year without any contractual assets to improve the team and we'd be up against the cap or close to it as well.

[Joker]

See I disagree with your statement that Ellis' overall abilities are better. I'll take the guy putting up better numbers except 6 ppg that doesn't have to be the focal point of the offense over the guy who needs to dominate the ball to volume score. LA was your example of a team where Ellis would be successful scoring. They are a good example because they are one of many, many teams where Curry would be the more successful player because of his stronger overall abilities. The ability to play within a team identity is very important in the NBA and Ellis seems really lacking to me in that area while Curry is much stronger.

I have a hard time coming up with any teams that would be better with Ellis as their PG rather than Curry. Are there some teams you have in mind?

We agree to disagree. Neither is much better than the other but Curry just hasn't shown that he can hang with the top PG as Ellis has proved at SG and he's better for now. I also mentioned that I think both players will peak at the same point. Borderline All Stars and I think Ellis has peaked. None are going to be superstars. They are going to be slightly behind Joe, Smith, and Horford in terms of overall ability. So it's not a biggie that you think Curry is more valuable but when you mention trades and Smoove for either one of these guys, you get a reaction from me and it's not positive and I don't really even like Smoove like that as a player but I know our personnel and our potential together. Curry or Ellis doesn't help us in that arena and yes, I think Ellis is currently better than Curry. I think many teams would take Ellis over Curry. Curry is a system PG. He doesn't fit a lot of other teams system or those teams have a PG they like already who maybe better. Ellis can play SG for anyone who isn't Atlanta, LAL, SAS, and that's it. He's also fit because he just doesn't do anything that's too bad to take him away from the gameplan.

[Dragitoff]

That's not nearly enough for me to give up one of our best players, plus a productive starter and a 1st. I like Nash and Hill but they're both on their last legs and might play another year tops and Biedrins is a borderline starter. This trade probably makes us better this year but we'd be in semi-rebuilding mode in another year without any contractual assets to improve the team and we'd be up against the cap or close to it as well.

We'd have Nash, Bibby, Joe, Horf, Biedrins, ZaZa, Jordan, and Pape Sy under contract for next year in this proposal. Bibby's deal would be enticing to teams I'd suspect since it's $5.5 million in expiring for a backup PG that can run an offense and hit a 3. Nash would also be in the final year of his deal next season. Even if you kept them both and didn't re-sign any of our FA's (Crawford, Teague, Hill,Collins, Wilkins, Powell,Thomas, etc..), you'd have a good bit coming off the books after next season (approx. $15 million).

My long-term plan in this proposal is trade Bibby in the off-season, re-sign Jamal, Hill (if he doesn't retire), Collins, and Wilkins. I'd like to re-sign Jeff Teague only if he comes cheap since he'll be the 3rd PG in rotation behind Nash and Jamal. Your rotation next season would be...

Nash/Teague/Sy

Johnson/Crawford/Crawford

Hill/Wilkins

Horford/??

Biedrins/ZaZa/Collins

Doing this, you'd have Steve Nash, Jordan Crawford, Damien WIlkins, Grant Hill, and Collins all coming off the books, not to mention any other 1 yr. deal offers we make. This gives us a little wiggle room not knowing what the new CBA deal will be, but also keeps the core group together and gives us another shot at winning this year and next.

[NineOhTheRino]

Monta Ellis' defensive issues are fixable. Curry on the other hand is physically incapable of defending a paper bag.

Edited February 8, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[Joker]

Monta Ellis' defensive issues are fixable. Curry on the other hand is physically unable to defend a paper bag.

Ellis can defend, he just is very lazy and gets beat by taking plays off on defense, you are correct on Curry. Either way, if it's Curry for Jamal or Ellis for Jamal, absolutely but not for Smoove, Horford or Joe.

[Vol4ever]

Not a fan of Ellis. He is a undersized SG with a shoot first mentality. I just think he is a chemistry killer, one demensional player.

[WraithSentinel]

Maybe in previous years I would have been against this trade. Monta seem to have grown up a lot within the last year since getting married and becoming a father. I could see this working out especially playing next to JJ. We gotta do something about the PG position. This might be the best option assuming any truth to it.

[exodus]

Not a fan of Ellis. He is a undersized SG with a shoot first mentality. I just think he is a chemistry killer, one demensional player.

Ellis is one of the best in the league and breaking down the defense off the dribble and finishing. The Hawks are a team that relies far too much on jump shooting. they are second to last in the league in getting to the foul line.

[NineOhTheRino]

Ellis is one of the best in the league and breaking down the defense off the dribble and finishing. The Hawks are a team that relies far too much on jump shooting. they are second to last in the league in getting to the foul line.

Home run! Last thing this team needs is another perimeter shooter with defensive issues.

[frankthetank966]

Ellis is avg 25 PPG while playing 40+ mins. He is a little overrated. He shots too much and isn't a team player. We have JC off the bench. Ellis wont help

[Admin]

We agree to disagree. Neither is much better than the other but Curry just hasn't shown that he can hang with the top PG as Ellis has proved at SG and he's better for now. I also mentioned that I think both players will peak at the same point. Borderline All Stars and I think Ellis has peaked. None are going to be superstars. They are going to be slightly behind Joe, Smith, and Horford in terms of overall ability. So it's not a biggie that you think Curry is more valuable but when you mention trades and Smoove for either one of these guys, you get a reaction from me and it's not positive and I don't really even like Smoove like that as a player but I know our personnel and our potential together. Curry or Ellis doesn't help us in that arena and yes, I think Ellis is currently better than Curry. I think many teams would take Ellis over Curry. Curry is a system PG. He doesn't fit a lot of other teams system or those teams have a PG they like already who maybe better. Ellis can play SG for anyone who isn't Atlanta, LAL, SAS, and that's it. He's also fit because he just doesn't do anything that's too bad to take him away from the gameplan.

By what measurement are you using to determine that they're equal or that Ellis is better? And again how are you determining that Curry hasn't shown he can hang with the top PGs?? Curry is in his 2nd year and he's already a borderline All-Star and he's putting up tremendous #'s for a PG, let alone one in his 2nd year playing for a team full of chuckers. But I guess since the stats don't back up your claim that Ellis is better then we can't rely on stats stats stats but I'm betting if the stats proved Ellis were better you'd be all about using them.

[NineOhTheRino]

Around 35 mins in Simmons said he'd pick Noah over Horford then ended with:

Hordford...I've seen disappear too many times

Edited February 8, 2011 by NineOhTheRino