Josh Smith YOUR Black Sheep

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Hawksquawk, I just noticed something. Correct me if I am wrong, but I just realized that the majority of the people on Hawksquawk treat Josh Smith like the NBA (and the city) treats the Atlanta Hawks. Here are my reasons:

(Most users on Hawksquawk)

When Josh Smith has a bad game, he is horrible and needs to be traded immediately

When Josh Smith has a average game, That is what he is supposed to do, but needs to be traded

When Josh Smith has a great game, it was a fluke, he is getting in the way of Al's growth and he still needs to be traded immediately.

(NBA/media/city)

When the Hawks lose, the Hawks are a bad team, wouldn't be surprised if it is moved, but we love our Falcons.

When the Hawks win, the Hawks didn't win the other team just lost it wouldn't happen a second time, they still suck.

My point is we complain about not getting exposure and the media is always dogging us even when we are doing great, however we (most of you) turn around and do the same thing to one of the best and most consistent players on our team. It makes no sense. Yes the Hawks lose games they shouldn't lose but what Nba team doesn't? Should Boston lose to Charlotte? Yes Josh makes bad decisions name a star player who doesn't, how many times have you seen Lebron settle for 3's when he should be driving to the hole?

The same sensless hatred that this team receives from media and everywhere else is the same hatred that some of you throw at Josh Smith, just thought some of us should realize that. It's kind of sickining! :bad:

[gutz]

Josh Smith deserves every single bit of criticism we all give him on this board. You need to get a clue. Smoove is a cancer on this team and the dumbest NBA player in the league.

[ag82]

the point we all make about josh smith is that he does have incredible potential and he does have an amazing game sometimes. the problem is that he does not have good/great games consistently. when he has bad games, he can be really really really bad and almost single handedly take the team out of the game or shoot the team out of the game.

if he played smart and within his game, most people here would love him.

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Josh Smith deserves every single bit of criticism we all give him on this board. You need to get a clue. Smoove is a cancer on this team and the dumbest NBA player in the league.

You my friend are a prime example, but I am not going to go into that, I am not talking about criticism, I criticize him when he makes bad decisions, but I also do the same thing to all of our other players when they play like crap, this is borderline hatred (for Josh). Al is our center should he be shooting most of his shots from the outside????? I love Al but he is slowly becoming a finesse player, but I don't hear anyone saying that he is playing out of his game, or that he is a cancer. You my friend need to get a clue and take you hater glasses off.

the point we all make about josh smith is that he does have incredible potential and he does have an amazing game sometimes. the problem is that he does not have good/great games consistently. when he has bad games, he can be really really really bad and almost single handedly take the team out of the game or shoot the team out of the game.

if he played smart and within his game, most people here would love him.

Trust me I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree with some of it, I actually think its the other way around, Josh rarely has consistent bad games (check the numbers). Out of a 82 or 81 game season I can only count off hand about 5 or 6 very bad games for Josh. From what I can see he does way more good than bad. Yes he deserves criticism, but our other guys should receive the same amount when they don't show up for games no one gets a pass.

Edited March 27, 2011 by CODHAWKSFAN

[Supporter]

Yeh, Josh does get an excessive amount of criticism, but that's exactly what he needs. He is flat out our most talented player, and should be our best player night in and night out, he has THAT kind of potential. However his resistance to what is working for him is going to be his downfall. Most of us are tired of him going against the flow and if he continues like this, he should be moved because him and Horford should not BOTH be shooting outside J's as our main bigs.

[hawkman]

Everybody piling on Josh Smith is getting old. He's actually a good player and one of the few players that I've seen try to improve his game EVERY single season he has been here ON HIS OWN. Could you imagine how good this team would be if everyone on this team did the same during the offseason? Seriously, I wonder if people remember how raw this guy was when he got here. Yes, he has his negatives but he's a Hawk and one of the best we have on this team right now.

[Eddielives]

Okay Josh apologists. Resorting to describing those that have a different opinion as you of a player as haters and reactionary idiots(I know no one has used those exact words but the insinuation is there) is only making you apologists look bad. When I see Josh whining to the refs while the ball is still in play when he is having one of his MANY pissy attitude nights, I will ignore this because I don't want to be a hater. When Josh makes bone-headed passes that kill our momentum, I will shut my mouth for fear of being reactionary. When Josh doesn't help his teammate off the floor, I will just think of how hard he works in the offseason and let it go. When Josh takes too many jumpshots, I will remind myself that Al takes jumpshots too and we just can't judge one without judging the other, even if Al's jumpshot is more consistent and his attitude is much more professional and mature. You know, I can't speak for others who have lost favor with Josh. But I have never said the guy doesn't have talent or isn't valuable to this team. But the fact is even Michael Vick when he was here in Atlanta, had value despite his flaws. Now don't go racing to the reply button with anger. I'm not putting Josh and Vick on the same level on every measure. Josh, as far as I know, has maintained professionalism off the floor unlike Vick. But they both represent talented guys who can't seem to get their shitt together and have literally divided a city fanbase(Josh to a much lesser extent of course) into "apologists" and "haters." I say look at the merit of what others have to say and if you disagree, argue with facts instead of just labeling them as basically dummies who are full of hate.

[gutz]

You my friend are a prime example, but I am not going to go into that, I am not talking about criticism, I criticize him when he makes bad decisions, but I also do the same thing to all of our other players when they play like crap, this is borderline hatred (for Josh). Al is our center should he be shooting most of his shots from the outside????? I love Al but he is slowly becoming a finesse player, but I don't hear anyone saying that he is playing out of his game, or that he is a cancer. You my friend need to get a clue and take you hater glasses off.

Trust me I understand what you are saying but I have to disagree with some of it, I actually think its the other way around, Josh rarely has consistent bad games (check the numbers). Out of a 82 or 81 game season I can only count off hand about 5 or 6 very bad games for Josh. From what I can see he does way more good than bad. Yes he deserves criticism, but our other guys should receive the same amount when they don't show up for games no one gets a pass.

You are clearly clueless and need to get off of Smoove's nuts. The reason we don't hate on Al is because he does the right things. Do you see Al taking 3pt shots? No because he knows that isn't his range eventhough he is probably a better 3pt shooter than Smoove. We all know Al is a WAY better shooter than Smoove inside the 3pt line. Al is shooting almost 60% from the field dude. You make no sense. Smoove is hated on because he is a moron and continues to take jumpshots when he is an awful jumpshooter. no one else on the team hurts us like Smoove does.

Edited March 27, 2011 by gutz

[CODHAWKSFAN]

Okay Josh apologists. Resorting to describing those that have a different opinion as you of a player as haters and reactionary idiots(I know no one has used those exact words but the insinuation is there) is only making you apologists look bad. When I see Josh whining to the refs while the ball is still in play when he is having one of his MANY pissy attitude nights, I will ignore this because I don't want to be a hater. When Josh makes bone-headed passes that kill our momentum, I will shut my mouth for fear of being reactionary. When Josh doesn't help his teammate off the floor, I will just think of how hard he works in the offseason and let it go. When Josh takes too many jumpshots, I will remind myself that Al takes jumpshots too and we just can't judge one without judging the other, even if Al's jumpshot is more consistent and his attitude is much more professional and mature. You know, I can't speak for others who have lost favor with Josh. But I have never said the guy doesn't have talent or isn't valuable to this team. But the fact is even Michael Vick when he was here in Atlanta, had value despite his flaws. Now don't go racing to the reply button with anger. I'm not putting Josh and Vick on the same level on every measure. Josh, as far as I know, has maintained professionalism off the floor unlike Vick. But they both represent talented guys who can't seem to get their shitt together and have literally divided a city fanbase(Josh to a much lesser extent of course) into "apologists" and "haters." I say look at the merit of what others have to say and if you disagree, argue with facts instead of just labeling them as basically dummies who are full of hate.

AGAIN.....I am not saying Josh should not be criticized when he f%$ks up on the court, believe me when I say this, my neighbors know when I am watching a Hawks game and Josh Smith takes a jumper from right inside the 3 point line.....however they also know when Jamal has a turnover, Teague misses a floater, Joe hogs the ball, Al runs the break, so on and so on. Now you sir can call me an apologist or whatever you want to call me, but I can tell you this, neither my criticisms or praises are one sided. You cannot sit here and tell me that a bad game by Josh is treated with the same criticism as a bad game by Al, or any other player on our team. When a single player on this team can score 33 pts and people on this board still say he needs to be traded, but another scores 30 (or close to it) and is considered this teams savior/future, that is just pure hatred.....or maybe its just favoritism I will let you decide. I am just starting to get disgusted with all of the finger pointing and "trade Smith" threads especially when the guy is playing well.

[Diesel]

My outrage with Smoove is the fact that the only reason he has "bad" games is because he decides too. Josh has huge potential but is too stubborn to try and be the player that many of us believe he can be.

It's like having a Ferrrari F430 and finding out that it is being outpaced by a 2005 Toyota Celica GTS.

It's not that you want the car gone, but you would like to see it do what you believe it can.

[niremetal]

Funny. Substitute JJ for Josh and it would be just as accurate. There are about the same number of true "haters" for both guys, and about the same number of people who provide balanced criticism. Josh actually has a lot more vocal defenders than JJ does, so JJ is arguably even more the "black sheep" of Hawksquawk.

Personally, I'll just say that every player on the Hawks has his shortcomings. But Josh's shortcomings piss me off the most because most of them would cease to be problems if he simply decided to play to his strengths rather than his weaknesses. Seven years in the league and we're still waiting for him to figure out that he's not a perimeter player. It's frustrating as hell. Plenty of people feel that way. But the vast majority of them are not "senseless haters."

Edited March 27, 2011 by niremetal

[Eddielives]

AGAIN.....I am not saying Josh should not be criticized when he f%$ks up on the court, believe me when I say this, my neighbors know when I am watching a Hawks game and Josh Smith takes a jumper from right inside the 3 point line.....however they also know when Jamal has a turnover, Teague misses a floater, Joe hogs the ball, Al runs the break, so on and so on. Now you sir can call me an apologist or whatever you want to call me, but I can tell you this, neither my criticisms or praises are one sided. You cannot sit here and tell me that a bad game by Josh is treated with the same criticism as a bad game by Al, or any other player on our team. When a single player on this team can score 33 pts and people on this board still say he needs to be traded, but another scores 30 (or close to it) and is considered this teams savior/future, that is just pure hatred.....or maybe its just favoritism I will let you decide. I am just starting to get disgusted with all of the finger pointing and "trade Smith" threads especially when the guy is playing well.

You state your position well. But I stillI think you have to ask yourself this question. Does Al carry himself better on the court when things aren't going his way? Does composure mean anything as it pertains to leadership and professionalism? Does Al, generally speaking, play within his skillset and help the team more than hurt it? The answer is not one reached through favoritism or hatred of one guy playing the same position as the guy he "likes" more. Al may not be nearly as dynamic as Smoove but he sticks to his guns and has improved and has been an All-star playing out of position for two years now. One thing I don't think you are seeing is that by many on this forum wanting Smoove to be considered as trade bait, they are admitting that he has value and can actually net us value at another position we need it at more. We have depth at power forward on this team. I just simply think Al fits the bill as this teams power forward better. I mean I would love to see Smoove grow up a little and stop the whining, jumpshooting and wannabe pg play he often does. If he would do this then he would immediately change the minds of the people that you seem to be deeming as haters. I know there was great excitement when Al had that game against Chicago and maybe it was a bit overblown. Okay it was overblown. But the reason it was there is because Al is a likeable guy who knows what he can and can't do. Josh is a bit like the "situation" from Jersey Shore. You sort of want to see what he's going to do next but really you think the guy is a bit of a douche and can't stand him.

[Guest]

We get so fustrated with Josh because we all see his potential of how great he can be and what his play does for the rest of the team when he plays to his strengths. When he goes off the reservation and shoots long jumpshots early in the shot clock, trying to lead the break and cause a turnover, arguing with ref in lieu of getting back on defense and allowing the other team to score that's what most people have issue with. All the players have bad games, but when they do it isn't because of boneheaded plays.

[niremetal]

Funny. Substitute JJ for Josh and it would be just as accurate. There are about the same number of true "haters" for both guys, and about the same number of people who provide balanced criticism. Josh actually has a lot more vocal defenders than JJ does, so JJ is arguably even more the "black sheep" of Hawksquawk.

Personally, I'll just say that every player on the Hawks has his shortcomings. But Josh's shortcomings piss me off the most because most of them would cease to be problems if he simply decided to play to his strengths rather than his weaknesses. Seven years in the league and we're still waiting for him to figure out that he's not a perimeter player. It's frustrating as hell. Plenty of people feel that way. But the vast majority of them are not "senseless haters."

Tonight was case in point. He played an All-Star caliber game, and would have had just an off-the-charts night if only he hadn't taken and missed 8 perimeter jumpers.

If Josh cut the jumpers and the "Imma run the break" moments, 80% of my complaints about him would cease (the other 20% would be his on-ball defense and occasional decisions to whine at the refs and/or loaf through the offense). He's 6'9, strong as an ox, and one of the most explosive players in the league. He could dominate if he recognized that and made his living within 10 feet of the basket. But it’s been 7 years, and he doesn’t get that. Instead, he wants to prove his doubters wrong. Rather than playing to his strengths, he tries to prove he has no weaknesses. It’s sad, frustrating, and infuriating.

Edited March 28, 2011 by niremetal

[swanlee]

Look I've been a josh fan for a long time but he deserves the heat we give him. 7 years in the league now and he still whines and pouts like a rookie. Also LD needs to fine him $5000 everytime he takes a jump shut outside of 15ft. His constant jump shooting kills our gameplan. He hangs around the 3pt line thinking he is a guard, we already have 2 guards and 2 forwards that can actually hit jump shots we do not need our power forward hanging around the 3pt line all night. This just compounds the problem of us not having a legit center. This is a case of even when he is shooting well he still screws up our gameplan just we do not need him taking long jump shots, we need him under the basket at both ends cause we do not have a good center on this team.

He will never learn that and because he is to immature and hard headed to do whats best for the team he deserves the crap he gets here.

[thecampster]

Tonight was case in point. He played an All-Star caliber game, and would have had just an off-the-charts night if only he hadn't taken and missed 8 perimeter jumpers.

If Josh cut the jumpers and the "Imma run the break" moments, 80% of my complaints about him would cease (the other 20% would be his on-ball defense and occasional decisions to whine at the refs and/or loaf through the offense). He's 6'9, strong as an ox, and one of the most explosive players in the league. He could dominate if he recognized that and made his living within 10 feet of the basket. But it’s been 7 years, and he doesn’t get that. Instead, he wants to prove his doubters wrong. Rather than playing to his strengths, he tries to prove he has no weaknesses. It’s sad, frustrating, and infuriating.

See, this is the part that frustrates people the most though on the other side of this argument. the guy grabs 18 rebounds and puts out 8 assists and there are numerous people in this thread (and every other one) being far more critical than you are.

On a night that Josh was 2 assists short of a triple double and 2 rebounds short of 20, people are still hacking on him. They seem to find the reason to dislike the guy instead of appreciate that he's a Hawk. There are a whole lot of people in Cleveland that would take him right now. Half the teams in the league would take him in a heartbeat and give up plenty to do it. But we as Hawks fans would rather beat in to the ground his deficiancies.

Playing the comparison game....who is this player?

The year he was traded his stats were:

26.0 ppg

44% FG%,

29% 3pt %.

6.5 rebounds,

2.3 assists,

.4 bpg

2.3 t/o

Although an exceptional scorer and athlete, he was a below average defender and lazy rebounder who was eventually traded for a more team oriented player to improve his team's chances in the playoffs.

---------------

That player.....Dominique Wilkins.

The only numbers in that set better than Josh's this year is PPG and .4 t/o a game and Josh is a superior defender.

I would really like to see people stop and recognize what we have and stop pushing to see another great player shipped out of Atlanta.

[QuantumHawkz]

I've read everyones reply to the post, and EVERYONE is 100% right. But this is the way i see the "josh smith issue", Until josh isn't a Hawk anymore then i will treat him like the other players who are not hawks, but until then he's a hawk and iam a hawk fan and bashing the players on the team i root for would'nt set right in my eyes.Becuase like life, EVERYTHING has it's upside and downside EVERYTHING.You just have to pick your posion.

[SuperSavvyNation]

The thing about Josh is he comes across as selfish. Sure he wants to develop his game and be considered an elite player. That is obvious. But when that is done outside of the context of what is best for your team, then people will notice and criticize him for it.

I think he is at his best when he is concentrating on rebounding and facilitating (halfcourt, not transition). People question his BBIQ based on his ill-timed jumpshots. When the team has missed 8 shots in row...or the other team is seizing momentum and the Hawks need someone to stem the tide...that is when Josh seems to be at his worst. That's when he seems to think that a 25 foot catapult shot is called for. Smart players lean on their strengths and take advantage of that aspect.

He needs to be traded because he has the best value and he is not really a leader or a winner, by my personal definition. If he were a leader or a winner, it would be harder to part with him. But a savvy GM could really do the Hawks some good as a team by unloading Josh.

[swanlee]

See, this is the part that frustrates people the most though on the other side of this argument. the guy grabs 18 rebounds and puts out 8 assists and there are numerous people in this thread (and every other one) being far more critical than you are.

On a night that Josh was 2 assists short of a triple double and 2 rebounds short of 20, people are still hacking on him. They seem to find the reason to dislike the guy instead of appreciate that he's a Hawk. There are a whole lot of people in Cleveland that would take him right now. Half the teams in the league would take him in a heartbeat and give up plenty to do it. But we as Hawks fans would rather beat in to the ground his deficiancies.

Playing the comparison game....who is this player?

The year he was traded his stats were:

26.0 ppg

44% FG%,

29% 3pt %.

6.5 rebounds,

2.3 assists,

.4 bpg

2.3 t/o

Although an exceptional scorer and athlete, he was a below average defender and lazy rebounder who was eventually traded for a more team oriented player to improve his team's chances in the playoffs.

---------------

That player.....Dominique Wilkins.

The only numbers in that set better than Josh's this year is PPG and .4 t/o a game and Josh is a superior defender.

I would really like to see people stop and recognize what we have and stop pushing to see another great player shipped out of Atlanta.

Numbers aren't telling the story with Josh, he can have great numbers and mess up our gameplan by taking to many jumpshots and trying to be a guard running down the court. Even when he is making jumpshots which he was not and has has never been able to consistently shoot far fromt he basket it takes him away from the basket where we need him the most.

Numbers don't tell you that he whines and cries to the refs while the ball is in play either.

He needs to not take jumpshots more than 10ft from the basket, he needs to stop hanging around the 3pt line, he needs to stop trying to be a guard running down the court and he needs to stop whining to the refs while the ball is in play.

Edited March 28, 2011 by swanlee

[hawkman]

The thing about Josh is he comes across as selfish. Sure he wants to develop his game and be considered an elite player. That is obvious. But when that is done outside of the context of what is best for your team, then people will notice and criticize him for it.

I think he is at his best when he is concentrating on rebounding and facilitating (halfcourt, not transition). People question his BBIQ based on his ill-timed jumpshots. When the team has missed 8 shots in row...or the other team is seizing momentum and the Hawks need someone to stem the tide...that is when Josh seems to be at his worst. That's when he seems to think that a 25 foot catapult shot is called for. Smart players lean on their strengths and take advantage of that aspect.

He needs to be traded because he has the best value and he is not really a leader or a winner, by my personal definition. If he were a leader or a winner, it would be harder to part with him. But a savvy GM could really do the Hawks some good as a team by unloading Josh.

I see your point. But by your definition, there's not a single leader or winner on this roster.