Lateral move my *ss!

[Buzzard]

Yep that's exactly why and had nothing to do with his opinion. Hell of being a negative poster and not sharing in the popular opinion of the team were enough to get you banned there would be many members here who would have been gone long ago. You can be negative or positive but either way you've got to be respectful and you won't have a problem around here.

Got to plus one you on this big time. When I first started here Diesel and I use to go at each other pretty bad. I like the way this board has tempered its members personal attacks including my own. Now back on topic: I still have a wait and see attitude on Hinrich. He is a better PG than Bibby, but IMO he is not that big an improvement over the Bibby of two and three seasons ago. Bibbys skills were good enough to get us into the 2nd round then and if that is all Hinrich can help us do, its a latteral move or at best a bandaid until we get a all star level PG to take his place.

Sorry if some think this is a negative view; but wanting our team to get past the 2nd round for the first time in my life is all I care about now. If we cannot do that, the trade for Hinrich is not a improvement on anyone's ( Sund, ASG, our players, hopefully that is what all of us fans want to see ) long term goals. Its is what it is and what it will be. I will wait patiently and see if Hinrich is the PG that can help get us further than we have ever been. If he gets us to the same spots Bibby did, how can anyone see that as a improvement? Even more so when you take into account that we gave up two 1st round picks and a few millions in expiring.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Buzzard

[ngc7]

Well if you think about it the east is much better now and bibby getting us to the 2nd rd when our first round opponent was the heat and the bucks isnt nearly as impressive as a first rd victory against the magic would be. it obvious at this pt kirk makes us much better right now. the future is still in the air but we all know bibby has no future .

[Buzzard]

Well if you think about it the east is much better now and bibby getting us to the 2nd rd when our first round opponent was the heat and the bucks isnt nearly as impressive as a first rd victory against the magic would be. it obvious at this pt kirk makes us much better right now. the future is still in the air but we all know bibby has no future .

I think you are using the word much liberally. The east is more balanced now but that has just as much to do with teams like Indiana, NY, and Philly moving up and the Cavs, us, and Magic moving down as it does the Heat and Bulls improving greatly. Celtics were status quo for the regular season and whether they took a hit or improved trading away Perk remains to be seen. Bucks were replaced to be honest and you saying they were not that good does not go far since they gave us all we could handle last season in the playoffs.

I would rather have my two 1st round picks, Evans expiring, Bibbys expiring the same season as Hinrichs if our only improvement this season or next is nothing better than 2nd round exits. At least with what we traded away, our future could be brighter. The only possible real value for Hinrich is conference finals, otherwise we would have been better off looking towards the next two future seasons.

This is why I do not like bandaids. We get just good enough to remain stagnant by barely fixing a bleeding Bibby, and lose out big on our future chances. If Hinrich somehow helps us get to the finals this season or next, its a huge win. If all we do is 1st or 2nd round exits, it is a big big loss.

[ngc7]

yea as far as the trade goes i would not of done it..i would of had teague starting all year tp be our defensive stopper at the point but its too late now. you got to look at it as a bibby vs hinrich debate. not whether or not our trade was good for the future or not. we are in the now.

[niremetal]

Got to plus one you on this big time. When I first started here Diesel and I use to go at each other pretty bad. I like the way this board has tempered its members personal attacks including my own. Now back on topic: I still have a wait and see attitude on Hinrich. He is a better PG than Bibby, but IMO he is not that big an improvement over the Bibby of two and three seasons ago. Bibbys skills were good enough to get us into the 2nd round then and if that is all Hinrich can help us do, its a latteral move or at best a bandaid until we get a all star level PG to take his place.

I'll just repost something I said awhile back:

But as far as the yardstick of playoff "success," I think looking at it by round is the wrong way to go about it. The way I see it, we didn't win a game against a good team in last year's playoffs. The first round series against the Bucks should have been a sweep, especially given their injuries. We didn't even show up against Orlando - the only actually good team we faced. If we show up against a good team in the playoffs, I consider that an improvement. So honestly, I think that even winning 2-3 games against Orlando/Mia/Bos in the first round this year would be an improvement on last year's playoff performance, even if we technically didn't make it out of the first round. If we win in the first round against Orl/Mia/Bos? That would absolutely be an improvement.

We've already showed up against a good team in the playoffs. One that swept us in 4 blowouts last year. I frankly think that's already an improvement. Not saying it's "enough," but I already feel better about our playoff performance this year than I did at any point during the playoffs last year.

Edited April 17, 2011 by niremetal

[Diesel]

I think you are using the word much liberally. The east is more balanced now but that has just as much to do with teams like Indiana, NY, and Philly moving up and the Cavs, us, and Magic moving down as it does the Heat and Bulls improving greatly. Celtics were status quo for the regular season and whether they took a hit or improved trading away Perk remains to be seen. Bucks were replaced to be honest and you saying they were not that good does not go far since they gave us all we could handle last season in the playoffs.

I would rather have my two 1st round picks, Evans expiring, Bibbys expiring the same season as Hinrichs if our only improvement this season or next is nothing better than 2nd round exits. At least with what we traded away, our future could be brighter. The only possible real value for Hinrich is conference finals, otherwise we would have been better off looking towards the next two future seasons.

This is why I do not like bandaids. We get just good enough to remain stagnant by barely fixing a bleeding Bibby, and lose out big on our future chances. If Hinrich somehow helps us get to the finals this season or next, its a huge win. If all we do is 1st or 2nd round exits, it is a big big loss.

Wow. Bibby would have guaranteed us swept out of the playoffs. I shutter to think of how Jameer Nelson would have made Bibby his b*tch out there. Maybe he said see you in the second round thinking that Bibby was still with us. The point is that the ownership had to see if this core is worthy of staying together. JC2 would have never played for us. That 2011 first rounder would have been # 18 in a weak draft. We're cap strapped and we need to know who should go and who should stay. And while this team is still together, we need to make a real run in the playoffs. Us growing rookies don't fit with that plan.

[Buzzard]

Wow. Bibby would have guaranteed us swept out of the playoffs. I shutter to think of how Jameer Nelson would have made Bibby his b*tch out there. Maybe he said see you in the second round thinking that Bibby was still with us. The point is that the ownership had to see if this core is worthy of staying together. [bJC2 would have never played for us. That 2011 first rounder would have been # 18 in a weak draft.] We're cap strapped and we need to know who should go and who should stay. And while this team is still together, we need to make a real run in the playoffs. Us growing rookies don't fit with that plan.

I am saying in no uncertain terms that I am waiting on a real run also. I am also saying in no uncertain terms, my real run this season or next does not end in the 2nd round; if it does we gave up to much for a non all star caliber PG. Whether your assumptions above are correct or not is irrelevant but just for arguments sake I will toss this out there. We lose Jamal next season and a few good players go at 18 or lower, this trade will bite if Hinrich only gets us into the 2nd round this season and next.

Do you think fans of any team seeded higher than us will see their teams moves as a GREAT upgrade if they go out in the 2nd round? Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Boston fans will be disappointed. What is it about Hawks fans that is so different? I think its because we have never tasted a conference championship. Many of us IMO look at getting into the playoffs as a minor championship but the flip side is 16 teams or half the league get there. Then when we get to the 2nd round, we are in our championship. Only 25% of the league gets that far and since it is as far as we have ever gotten we should be really excited so long as we put up a good fight.

Like I said above, its a wait and see on Hinrich and our run into the playoffs. I am a Hawks fan so take this with a grain of salt. If we get past Orlando, I say our chances are 3 to 1 against us getting into the conference finals. That is not as good as the Nique years but there is a glimmer of hope. If we get to the conference finals it will be a Hawks history making trade; but if we don't it will be the same ol same ol with two 1st round picks gone as well.

[Crank]

I am saying in no uncertain terms that I am waiting on a real run also. I am also saying in no uncertain terms, my real run this season or next does not end in the 2nd round; if it does we gave up to much for a non all star caliber PG. Whether your assumptions above are correct or not is irrelevant but just for arguments sake I will toss this out there. We lose Jamal next season and a few good players go at 18 or lower, this trade will bite if Hinrich only gets us into the 2nd round this season and next.

Do you think fans of any team seeded higher than us will see their teams moves as a GREAT upgrade if they go out in the 2nd round? Chicago, Miami, Orlando, Boston fans will be disappointed. What is it about Hawks fans that is so different? I think its because we have never tasted a conference championship. Many of us IMO look at getting into the playoffs as a minor championship but the flip side is 16 teams or half the league get there. Then when we get to the 2nd round, we are in our championship. Only 25% of the league gets that far and since it is as far as we have ever gotten we should be really excited so long as we put up a good fight.

Like I said above, its a wait and see on Hinrich and our run into the playoffs. I am a Hawks fan so take this with a grain of salt. If we get past Orlando, I say our chances are 3 to 1 against us getting into the conference finals. That is not as good as the Nique years but there is a glimmer of hope. If we get to the conference finals it will be a Hawks history making trade; but if we don't it will be the same ol same ol with two 1st round picks gone as well.

So basically what you are saying that if we dont make it past the second rd no matter what happens its Hinrichs fault and we shouldnt have made the trade :cant believe:

[Buzzard]

So basically what you are saying that if we dont make it past the second rd no matter what happens its Hinrichs fault and we shouldnt have made the trade :cant believe:

I am saying if we don't get past the 2nd round with Hinrich, no matter what happens, we gave up to much. Furthermore the trade may not just be a simple latteral move but a possible desperate step back as far as our future goes. Here is a little refresher for you on our management team, Hinrich is not our GM. He is no more to blame than Marvin is. Marvin did not pick himself and Hinrich did not trade himself. I never said anything like that so you must think its somehow possible. :cant believe:

Edited April 18, 2011 by Buzzard

[BusBoyIsBack]

Hinrich played great, as did the whole team. I am not a hater but if we NEVER get into the conference finals with Hinrich its still a lateral move or at best a bandaid IMO.

I like the way our team played last night; but in the grand scheme, 2nd round exits with Bibby or with Hinrich are still 2nd round exits. If we push into the conference finals, Sund should get GM of the year and be a automatic for the Hawks HOF!

What did people want ASG to do? Some of you say we shouldn't have re-signed Joe Johnson. But if they don't re-sign Joe then you can blame them for being too cheap to build this team as competitive as possible. What do you want them to do? Superstars aren't a dime a dozen. Unless you're the Lakers, teams just don't hand them away. Almost all of them in the league right

now were drafted by their current teams by luck of the draw in the lottery.

The way we are currently constructed, honestly Miami may be our only obstacle the next 3-4 years with the way Boston is aging and the way we may be conquering Orlando

[Buzzard]

What did people want ASG to do? Some of you say we shouldn't have re-signed Joe Johnson. But if they don't re-sign Joe then you can blame them for being too cheap to build this team as competitive as possible. What do you want them to do? Superstars aren't a dime a dozen. Unless you're the Lakers, teams just don't hand them away. Almost all of them in the league right

now were drafted by their current teams by luck of the draw in the lottery.

The way we are currently constructed, honestly Miami may be our only obstacle the next 3-4 years with the way Boston is aging and the way we may be conquering Orlando

I guess the most distressing thing is we are looking a little like Phoenix with only JJ, and no Nash, no Amare, and no Matrix in his prime. When I say this I am referring to the Suns management team trading away and selling 1st round picks. We have traded away or sold three 1st round picks in less than 12 months; and Hinrich is all we have player wise to show for it. If we were talking about our late 2nd round picks it would not bother me at all.

I can't recall any top team, other than Phoenix, in recent memory selling out so many 1st round picks for such little return. Can you? Like I said, Hinrich will either put us over the top and at least get us into the ECF or he is a 2nd round bandaid at best. I do not agree with your assessment that the only team we need to worry about for the next three to four years is Miami. Chicago, Indy, and Philly have a wealth of young talent and then there is the constants that always seem to out of nowhere re-appear into the playoff picture in the Bucks, Knicks, and Pistons.

[Crank]

I am saying if we don't get past the 2nd round with Hinrich, no matter what happens, we gave up to much. Furthermore the trade may not just be a simple latteral move but a possible desperate step back as far as our future goes. Here is a little refresher for you on our management team, Hinrich is not our GM. He is no more to blame than Marvin is. Marvin did not pick himself and Hinrich did not trade himself. I never said anything like that so you must think its somehow possible. :cant believe:

What future are you talking about ? It seems to me that you are complaining JUST TO BE COMPLAINING . It seems to me that you are simply living your life in a worse case scenario and no ownership or management can afford to think the way you do . At the rawest of truths they just flat out believe in the other players they had on the team more than you do ....how can you hate on that ?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm sorry . . but I need to see this consistently from Kirk. In my eyes, he's in the same light as Marvin right now.

When Marvin has a great game, people want to believe that he can consistently play at that level, only to be disappointed in him regressing back to being non-existant.

Honestly, this is the same reaction that most of us had after the Chicago win in early March, in which Kirk looked like the answer. Then he basically sucked for an entire month after that game. So until he puts together a string of games in which he plays well or decent, the jury is still out on him.

No doubt that I'm happy for the win. And I like what I saw from Kirk. But my response to him is . . . "do it again, to prove that it wasn't a fluke".

[Admin]

I'm sorry . . but I need to see this consistently from Kirk. In my eyes, he's in the same light as Marvin right now.

When Marvin has a great game, people want to believe that he can consistently play at that level, only to be disappointed in him regressing back to being non-existant.

Honestly, this is the same reaction that most of us had after the Chicago win in early March, in which Kirk looked like the answer. Then he basically sucked for an entire month after that game. So until he puts together a string of games in which he plays well or decent, the jury is still out on him.

No doubt that I'm happy for the win. And I like what I saw from Kirk. But my response to him is . . . "do it again, to prove that it wasn't a fluke".

When has Kirk sucked at playing defense? His offense has been extremely spotty but that's very understandable but his defensive intensity has been there since day 1. I doubt he'll always have as much success shutting down Nelson as well as he did but I don't for a second doubt that the effort will be there and that's all I will ask from him.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Dol . . Mike Bibby a few weeks ago was abusing him. Bibby drove to the hole at will on Kirk.

Kirk overall hasn't meshed with the starting unit since he's come here. Why do you think the Teague bandwagon has grown so much over the past few weeks?

I just need to see this more from Kirk. Not sporadically. I just don't know which is the "real Kirk Hinrich". The guy who played stellar defense on Rose for one game and then Nelson? Or the guy who let Mike Bibby, John Wall, and Darren Collison make him look like a backup PG.

No way I'm going to act like Hinrich has played consistent basketball on the defensive end, because that would be a lie. His Per-48 mintue opponent counterpart numbers at PG while with us, were pretty horrible. So I need to see consistency from Kirk.

Edited April 18, 2011 by northcyde

[Crank]

Dol . . Mike Bibby a few weeks ago was abusing him. Bibby drove to the hole at will on Kirk.

Kirk overall hasn't meshed with the starting unit since he's come here. Why do you think the Teague bandwagon has grown so much over the past few weeks?

I just need to see this more from Kirk. Not sporadically. I just don't know which is the "real Kirk Hinrich". The guy who played stellar defense on Rose for one game and then Nelson? Or the guy who let Mike Bibby, John Wall, and Darren Collison make him look like a backup PG.

No way I'm going to act like Hinrich has played consistent basketball on the defensive end, because that would be a lie. His Per-48 mintue opponent counterpart numbers at PG while with us, were pretty horrible. So I need to see consistency from Kirk.

Thats the regular season Kirk wasnt brought here for the regular season .

Ive never seen so many fans who put so much emphasis on meaningless regular season games .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Thats the regular season Kirk wasnt brought here for the regular season .

Ive never seen so many fans who put so much emphasis on meaningless regular season games .

That's cool Crank. But like I said, it's not like Kirk had been playing well since he's been here. The entire "he who's name shall not be mentioned" craze was a result of Kirk's poor play. Had Kirk been playing halfway decent, people wouldn't have been freaking out about losing Jordan.

Like I said . . I just want to see something similar to this on a consistent basis. If Kirk goes 2 - 8 for 5 pts . . and gets destroyed by Nelson in Game 2 . . what then?

It's not too much to ask from a guy that we traded 2 draft picks for, to play consistent basketball at the point. If he does, I like our chances to take this series in 5 or 6 games. If not, this may go the distance.

LOL . . I read the thread about Dol's "Possum Theory". I hope he's right, and these guys were just coasting, waiting for the playoffs to get here.

LMAO @ that edit of "you know who's name". That's hilarious. Is that put in automatically everytime someone types his name, or did you edit that on the fly?

That's hilarious.

[Admin]

That's cool Crank. But like I said, it's not like Kirk had been playing well since he's been here. The entire "he who's name shall not be mentioned" craze was a result of Kirk's poor play. Had Kirk been playing halfway decent, people wouldn't have been freaking out about losing Jordan.

Like I said . . I just want to see something similar to this on a consistent basis. If Kirk goes 2 - 8 for 5 pts . . and gets destroyed by Nelson in Game 2 . . what then?

It's not too much to ask from a guy that we traded 2 draft picks for, to play consistent basketball at the point. If he does, I like our chances to take this series in 5 or 6 games. If not, this may go the distance.

LOL . . I read the thread about Dol's "Possum Theory". I hope he's right, and these guys were just coasting, waiting for the playoffs to get here.

LMAO @ that edit of "you know who's name". That's hilarious. Is that put in automatically everytime someone types his name, or did you edit that on the fly?

That's hilarious.

I would be with you if everyone else had been playing well and Kirk was the one standing out in a negative way but everyone was playing poorly. In the big games that we really tried to win, against the Magic and Celtics, Kirk was every bit as good as we need him to be and I think that's what we'll see throughout this playoffs. Like you said if he goes 2 for 8 with 5 points and gets abused by Nelson then I'll be very disappointed in him, but surprised as well.

And yeah that's an automatic correction on the JC2 name when it's typed out ... I was just messing around with that the other night and probably won't keep it as a permanent thing. :scratchhead:

[Buzzard]

What future are you talking about ? It seems to me that you are complaining JUST TO BE COMPLAINING . It seems to me that you are simply living your life in a worse case scenario and ]no ownership or management can afford to think the way you do . At the rawest of truths they just flat out believe in the other players they had on the team more than you do ....how can you hate on that ?

Come on man, we sold a 1ST round pick for crying out loud. How is that believing in anything other than the bottom line?

My facts are simple:

We traded or sold three 1st round picks this season and our big free agent signing was Josh Powell ( career stats 3.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg ) and our big trade was for 30 yr old Kirk Hinrich (career stats 13 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg). Those moves may be good enough to put us over the top but I would not hold my breath.

Sorry man but this thread is about Kirk Hinrich being a latteral move. As far as I am concerned if he does not get us past the 2nd round it is worse than that because of everything we gave up. That is not hating, it is exactly what I think.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Buzzard

[Atlantaholic]

If we make it past the second round then I would call the move a brilliant success. Unless that happens though, we are still were we have been the past couple of years. Obviously Kirk is better than Bibby at this stage, however is he better than Bibby + Crawford + whatever the 1st turns out to be? Only time will tell. Crawford was playing some pretty promising basketball for the Wizards especially considering how raw he is, but on the other hand the guy was NOT going to get a chance with us this season the way our guard situation is stacked, and considering the necessity we have for a veteran presence at the position. Anyway, right now I'm happy we have Kirk rather than Bibby, as I'm fairly certain the Orlando game would have turned out quite differently with Bibs trying to check Nelson.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Atlantaholic