To the Joe Haters....

[sasuke]

1. That's debateble.

2. We have to be willing to let go some of these players who have more value than a #5 pick to get what we need.

3. See #2.

4. See #2... but more importantly, if you have a plan... you don't really need a KG. For instance, we need a big who can rebound and defend. If you add Dalembert to this team as is.... we will be in the next echelon of teams.

However, I think that we will have to formulate a plan and be willing to sacrifice if need be in order to get to the championship level.

Lastly, your thoughts on switching our best player for other players of equal value isn't going to do much..... is wrong.

We have holes in the fundamental makeup of our team. Very specifically... we have 2 PFs. Neither has a low post game (consistent). We have problems defending Bigs. We live and die by our ability to rebound. We get nothing from our Sf position. Our offensive game plan is still undefined. We lack high basketball IQ at may positions.

Having a plan means being truthful about our limitations and making moves to fix that. If we could make a lateral move like trading Horford for Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut, or Marc Gasol you don't think we'd be better? If we could get a Sf like Stephen Jackson, M. Pietrus, or Trevor Ariza. You don't think we'd be better?

We just have to be willing to look deep into the mirror and make the hard choice while the window is still open.

1 - It isn't. Pierce @ that time > JJ now & then, period.

2 - Seattle wanted to rebuild trough the draft & to get under the cap, so in a similar situation your scenario isn't going to get it done.

3 & 4 - So, there's NY, Miami & us offering the same $ to Dalembert. You really think he's going to end up here??????? No, hell no. Isn't happening. Sorry. Howard isn't coming here & neither CP3. Let's get real.

Horford is better than Lopez, no thanks. Bogut is close to Al when injured, but healthy is > Al so I don't think that Bucks will do it in real life. Marc Gasol > Al & don't make sense for Memphis to do that trade. How are you going to get captain Jack? We have our Pietrus & our Ariza, his name is Marvin Williams & is overpaid. We don't need another overpaid player like Ariza or Marvin, no thanks.

Give me something feasible that can, indeed, make us contenders with the posibility of loosing our six man & other teams also getting better.

Edited May 29, 2011 by sasuke

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So North, in your oh so rational mind you show examples of where the ASG lowballed our key free agents before they hit the market yet rationally they would have offered the same contract they offered the greater Joe Johnson to Jamal.....they wouldn't have adjusted to the particular player from there? Really? If that's their thinking how come they didn't throw that same 60 mil contract at Al seeing as they set the trend of just passing the buck on extensions and Al was the priority. Now rationally answer how come Jamal has still yet to be extended or offered one especially now that we know for damn sure his replacement is no longer on the roster and we don't even have a 1st to try and address that? You mentioned that he's unrestricted so that means he could negotiate an extension at any time up until July 1st, we did just see his former teammate ZBo receive an extension in the midst of his 1st round playoff series after all.

Lowballed?

The offer for Smith, considering where he was as a player at that time, was just about right.

The offer for JJ was the MAX they could've offered him for a 4 year extension.

The offer for Horford was about 2 mill a year less than the max he could've received ( I think ) . . .

Of the 3, do you know why Horford was the one that accepted his deal? Even if he thought he was worth more than 12 million a year, the uncertainty of the new CBA . . and the projected reduction of the salary cap and possible new salary structure . . were major influences in why Horford didn't take a chance on becoming a restricted free agent, and accepting the deal from the ASG. Had it been a regular year, Horford may have turned down the offer too.

And to be honest, it's commonplace for good restricted free agents to turn down the initial extension from their team, especially if they think they can get more money in the open market.

You seem shellshocked by the 60 mill number I said the ASG would offer Jamal if JJ wasn't here. OK, so forget about the 4 year - 60 million. What do you think they would've offered Jamal? Or better yet . . if you were the ASG/Sund, what kind of extension would you offered Jamal? Now keep in mind that if Jamal doesn't agree to an extension before June 30th, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. And that means that this is JJ all over again for them. It's not like we can wait for a team to throw a deal at him, and we match it. No. We either have to be aggressive and get him to sign, or watch him go to another team and try to get SOMETHING from his departure. Remember, you're not only trying to get him to sign the deal that you want, your deal has to be attractive enough for him to sign, when everybody else is coming at him as well.

So forget 4 yrs - 60 million. What would you offer Jamal if he were an unrestricted free agent, and would you feel that would be good enough to get Jamal to re-sign?

You then go at Wes Matthews who is in his second year and a two way player because he can score and defend at a near elite level thus what got him starting on a Jerry Sloan coached team as a rookie. He's now not worthwhile and has no place on a roster with elite passing big men, shot creating guards (yea Jamal and Jeffrey are decent in this regard) and a motion based offense because there's no way to work in a player that is efficient scoring around screens and curls. You keep comparing him to Marv, what you think he just stands at the corner 3 all night to get that scoring average? JJ showed more of an ability to create his shot but was very inefficient until Nash arrived and assisted him more at 50%. So like I said he wasn't anything special until his contract year. A signing bonus that pushes a deal out to 9 mil is still far less of an investment in a player like Matthews than paying the 20 mil we originally gave Joe in addition to his current 16 mil on crazy escalations. Matthews cap hit would have still been a MLE deal meaning he fit our cap.

See . . I gave Wesley props all throughout that last post. I didn't diss that dude. I just said that he wasn't as good as JJ 6 years ago. And he isn't. And I didn't compare him to Marvin. I said that I wish Marvin would play like him, because we then wouldn't have a lot of problem with Marvin. Matthews is a good, solid player. He plays his role on both ends of the floor well. And I said that Wesley was a good finisher on fast breaks. But in the halfcourt offense, yeah, he mainly just sits back and shoots 3s. Almost 40% of his shots last year were 3 pointers . . and he made 41% of them. If Marvin could do what Wesley does, Marvin would be an asset.

But Wesley is no Joe Johnson 6 years ago.

Joe Johnson 6 years ago was being mentioned in the same breath as Ray Allen, Michael Redd and Larry Hughes. All of those guys received max or close to max deals . . including Joe Johnson. And only Allen has had a more successful career in the past 6 years, than JJ. And JJ put himself on the radar the previous season, without Nash. Nash just made his game from a 3 point shooting standpoint much, much easier.

Amazing that you listed a possible lineup of:

Bibby-Teague

Matthews-Jamal-Jordan

Chandler-Marvin-Mo

Smoove-scrub

Horf-Zaza-scrub

Without any mention of how that team's depth blows out the water anything the Hawks have ever had or ever will have. That is the definition of a balanced roster and seeing as we just saw a similar Denver squad tear the league a new one playing better ball without a better player than JJ than they did with him by utilizing balanced scoring rather than a singular ball stopper you don't see the Hawks being able to do the same with that talent? No you are going to your old faithful boogie man argument that Jamal would of been forced to replace JJ and the horrors of that possibility.

I'm sorry man . . but that lineup isn't "deep". Zaza is a serviceable center, but nowhere near what a decent center should be. Marvin has major issues these days. Jamal is Jamal. Bibby broke down around Christmas. Jordan would still not play, and Teague's face may still be on the milk carton, if not for Hinrich's injury. I think Drew had to play Teague vs Chicago. But if Hinrich was healthy, Teague would've been lucky to see 10 minutes a game. And he would've been playing alongside Jamal and Marvin and Zaza . . instead of JJ and Smith and Horford. It's obvious that Teague plays better with the starters, specifically alongside Joe Johnson. Why he struggles playing alongside Jamal, I do not know.

But that team is not deep. We would still have major issues on the frontline, and only one real shot creator who could get his own shot and make it at times.

You don't think that it would have been a rational decision by the coach and management to change the philosophy of the team? Bibby is a vet PG that works off of Joe, we brought in Kirkland because he is a vet PG that can work off Joe and play defense. If Joe left the team and we acquired two much younger players in his stead you don't think it would have been a rational decision by the team to develop said youth more seeing as we are no longer the same team trying to improve or maintain it's wins but rather one that was taking a step back to reassess it's brand new future? Being that the team is no longer all in with a highly paid older veteran don't you think they wouldn't feel the need to fill out the roster and trade for older vets but rather try to identify more youth and even move the remaining old vets on the roster for more youth rather than vice versa?

If they did, that would mean that they're not worried about winning at this time. Which was my point about that team being a 6 - 8 seed in the East, instead of a 4 or 5 seed. But honestly, I don't think Drew's rotation would change that much. He's a 1st year coach with a very small amount of time to prove himself. If he didn't think Teague and Jordan were ready, he wouldn't experiment playing them and risk losing games and possibly missing the playoffs. He'd trust the vets, just like Woody did. He didn't even think about playng Jordan when JJ went down, opting to give Damien all of those minutes. And Teague only got a shot in the playoffs because Hinrich went down.

- Hinrich would start, and Jamal would still play the point so that he could control the ball and get his own shot

- Because of that, Teague would still get limited minutes

- Jordan would get zero minutes, because Wesley would be solid enough to play the SG 25 - 30 minutes a night, while Jamal alternated between playing the point and the 2.

- We'd still get killed on the boards, because we would've have done nothing to address the frontline issues. I guess Collins would be signed, but we'd need a rebounder. ( Sund knew that last year, and didn't get us one, so what changes in his decision making, if JJ isn't here? )

So unless the ASG gave their blessing to Drew, and told him to develop the young players and he wouldn't get blamed for any slippage in the standings, then no . . I don't think much would change here at all.

You keep bringing up Solo but 1) he got overpaid 2) Giving the investment we had around Joe and by Sund's words himself the team was now in win now mode and no longer had the time or luxury to bring up too many young players but rather preferred vets who presumably could perform their roles. All of these bums you want to talk ba about well their being here is a result of Joe. Bibby extension, Jamal trade, Hinrich trade, Jordan and Jeff being glued to the bench are all extensions of the team surrounding it's highest paid vet with "help".

Solo is a scrub and a hack machine. The only reason why I brought Solo up, was because Sund managed to bring in players who were WORSE than Solo . . which was incredible. LOL @ blaming JJ for the bums that were here. You forget that Sund

- re-signed Randolph Morris to a 2 year deal ( Randolph Morris now )

- passed on Dejuan Blair and took Jeff Teague, when Blair was easily the best player on the board at that time, and the reboundeder we needed.

- signed Joe Smith

- signed Jason Collins when he was grossly out of shape

- signed Josh Powell, when he's done little to nothing in this league

- signed Etan Thomas, who hasn't been a productive role player in 4 - 5 years

Don't blame JJ for Sund's inability to bring in decent big men . . even decent scrub big men. Sund has never been good at evaluating big men. I would've rather Sund throw 3 - 4 million at a decent big man, that to populate the bench with bottom of the barrel minimum vet guys.

LOL . . and you're blaming JJ for Sund trying to upgrade the talent around JJ? That's what a GM is supposed to do. JJ, Smith, and Horford are "the core", and they needed help. The Bibby and Jamal moves helped propel us into the playoffs. But nobody told that dude to re-sign Bibby, and not go after an Andre Miller. Nobody told Sund to hire a coach that would play Jamal in the same way as Woody did, stunting Teague's growth ( unless ownership told him to hire Drew . . which they probably did ). Nobody told Sund to bring in Josh Powell, a finesse PF when we desperately needed a physical one. But that's Sund. When it comes to big men, Sund can't evaluate a big man to save his life.

See that's your problem North and why I call your rationalizations garbage because you have only picked one doomsday scenario and have tried to pitch it as if it's the "most plausible" if not the only possible outcome had Joe left. It took me literally 3 minutes to look at Sham and B-R to find salaries and indentify various plausible scenarios and look closer at players I had literally just picked off the top of my head. I'm sure a professional NBA GM could invest 6 minutes of his actually paid time to do better.

LOL . . well why can't that "professional GM" of ours do a better job with his talent evaluation of free agents? Why are we wasting money on flat out scrubs, instead of being able to find diamonds in the rough like an Asik in Chicago, or a Barea in Dallas? Kurt Thomas was available last year. Why not go and get him, instead of Josh Powell? Couldn't get Dampier. Didn't want to use the #31 on a big man, even a project big man.

You want to rationalize your thinking by going to your boogie man argument over Jamal and downright stating that the team would continue like business as usual without Joe when the truth is right there in front of every sensible fan that has a bad taste about this franchise, the Hawks are trying to build around Joe Johnson as if he's Kobe frickin Bryant. Last I checked Al, Smoove, Marvin, Jeffrey, Namesake Jr., Solo... are all under 25. There's no rush to milk them of every dime before their window closes, there's no need to surround them with vets with zero potential, there's no need to let some of them go, trade some away or glue the rest on the bench in favor of an older guy......all these moves are done to supplement a mediocre star and continue to reap the small revenues of a mediocre team rather than take a step back or a cash hit to actually get an opportunity at a contenders window. Why would all things remain the same once this catalyst is gone? Answer rationally, not emotionally.

It would stay the same because that's all Sund knows. The dude did the same thing in Seattle that he's doing here. He kept that team the same, believing in guys like Luke Ridnour and Nick Collison. Signing guys like Earl Watson, and hoping he could help them win games because Luke couldn't play a lick of defense. He kept the "core" of that team the same, until his ownership basically forced him to completely dismantle the team, starting with not re-signing Rashard Lewis. After that, it was a fire sale in Seattle. Sund spent 3 consecutive 1st round picks in 3 years, trying to find that elusive big man in the draft. Robert Swift? Johan Petro? Saer Sene? ( lol @ the argument that Walter made for that guy over Shelden Williams . . and they both ended up sucking, but Sene was horrible ). I mean damn, that dude got rid of Nate McMillan, and hired Bob Weiss? Come on now.

You view my mindset as "apocalyptic", while I view your mindset as "delusional".

So because JJ is gone, Sund is all of a sudden going to start making great decisions with personnel and coaches, how he dishes out contracts, and how the team is constructed as a whole? Drew's motion offense is suddenly going to work, because the horrific ISO GUY that kills ball flow is gone? A team full of decent role players are going to succeed, and everything will gel just fine? The ASG are going to become some savvy management group that is going to be able to get the most bang for their buck?

Not buying that at all.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited May 29, 2011 by northcyde

[AHF]

As you show, no one of those guys was the true #1.

Magic ran the show, but Kareem was the finisher. Neither guy was looked at as being that Jordan (team built around me person).

I think you don't see what I'm getting at.

Teams... with multiple leaders win basketball championships.

Jordan's Bulls have propagated this myth that you have to have 1 #1 guy and he has to carry you to a championship.

BS.

I'm a fan of the Detroit Bad Boys.

Where Isiah was the front man, but it was Dumars or Johnson or somebody else that would save the day (finish games).

Now, Joe is a 5 time allstar. But like Magic, Isaiah, all the Celtics, Dr. J, Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen... he cannot win it by himself. The team has to step up.

Finally, I agree... we have to acquire more talent than we have. We have to fix our holes before we start to evaluate the one thing that is working for us.

The point is that all those teams had MVP level talents whether they were teams with multiple stars like Magic and Kareem or KG and Pierce they were teams where the lead player was the transcendent star that no one else on the team could touch like Jordan or Olajuwon. The common factor: MVP KG, MVP Shaq, MVP Kobe, MVP Jordan, MVP Kareem, MVP Malone, MVP Duncan, MVP Bird, etc.

The only team that was an exception over the last 30 years is the Pistons (both iterations).

We don't have that MVP level talent so it is not a good bet that we are a legit contender. That doesn't mean you should dump JJ to free up an insignificant amount of cap space but it does inform our chances to win a championship with JJ as our lead dog.

[KB21]

Come on KB. There is no way that if Ronnie Brewer was asked to do all that JJ does here, that his numbers would be close to what they are now. Essentially, put Brewer on a team in which he's the best ( or 2nd or 3rd best player ) . . tell him to try to score 20 ppg . . create for others to the tune of 5 assists a game . . and take the majority of late game shots, and Brewer would crash and burn like a meteorite hitting Earth.

I expect more from you man. You're comparing a role player who is only asked to play tremendous defense, to a guy who is asked to do just about everything under the sun. There's a reason why players like JJ get paid like they do ( or even overpaid ) . . while a guy like Brewer will NEVER see that type of money ever.

When is the last time Brewer has been doubled?

Has he ever been doubled in his entire career?

Is Brewer asked to play and guard 3 positions at times?

Is Brewer in the game at the end of games, to help take some of the offensive burden off of D-Rose?

73% of Ronnie's made FGs came via assists, which means he has to be set up to score. Only 47% of JJ's made FGs came via assists.

Brewer's win score is a direct result of him playing with a great defensive unit that limits the production of the opponent. Everybody on the Bulls, with the exception of Rose and Korver, has a higher defensive win score than they do an offensive win score. That's almost unheard of. That's 2003 Detroit Piston like.

That same win score stat says that Marvin contributed more to winning, than Jamal Crawford this year. Who in the hell is going to believe that, after watching Marvin this year? Jamal reverted back to what he usually is as a player, but Invisible Marvin contributed more to winning than Jamal did this year?

I mean damn . . at least compare JJ to a guy who has a similar role, like an Eric Gordon. Don't compare him to Ronnie friggin Brewer, and try to spin that like he contributes to winning more than JJ does. Brewer simply benefits from not having to be a go to scorer on offense, and plays with a great defensive unit.

Apparently, Joe needs to be set up to score more often. The reason he has so few field goals that are assisted is because of his strong tendancy to pound the air out of the ball and diminish the movement of the offense. Jamal Crawford does the same thing. Eric Gordon is actually a great example, because like Joe, his only produced around 4 wins this season for the Clippers. Like Joe, Eric Gordon is a shot chucker who does very little else that helps a team win.

Joe Johnson is on the decline. That's not an opinion either. His number are down across the board...

-Scoring

-Assists

-Rebounds

-Free throw attempts

-Shooting percentages

I think that if he stays, he needs to be moved to SF... He is slowing down and he struggles to get by SG's at this point. Watching him trying to go one on one is painful most of the time because most of the time he can't get by quicker SG's... So, he has to shoot over his man, but the problem is that his shot is getting more and more inaccurate by the season. This season, he reminded me a lot of Smitty in his last season with the Hawks when he could just no longer score at the 20PPG clip and many nights struggled to score more than 10-13 points. JJ is at that stage. But I think moving him to SF where he isn't being guarded by as many quicker players might help some.

The one negative about that move is the fact that Joe is already a horrible rebounding shooting guard. He might be even worse as a rebounder at the small forward position. The advantage of it would be that it will allow the team to move him away from guarding opposing point guards and shooting guards, neither of which he does very well, to guarding small forwards. The negative to that though is that his size advantage would be negated by a move to small forward.

Really, the best move that can be made with Joe Johnson is to move him and that albatross of a contract to another team. That's the only way the Hawks will be able to give themselves a chance to take that next step and get better, because that contract will prevent the Hawks to do so. Joe's contract is the cap that is on this team right now.

[Plainview1981]

I think to say Joe is on the decline is to ignore the situation.

Joe had his best playoff as a Hawk.

He had surgery on his shooting elbow and came back earlier.

He had a new coach with a new offense that took the ball out of his hands.

Now, let's look at your statement again..

"Joe is on the Decline".

Is that a fact?

His playoffs suggest that Joe Struggled through the year because of all the factors listed but when the playoffs showed up, so did Joe.

I wouldn't callthat a decline.

The Hawks abandoned their 'new" offense fairly early in the season.

While Joe's playoff performance was better than the last few, I wouldn't say he he had a great postseason.

[Plainview1981]

Apparently, Joe needs to be set up to score more often. The reason he has so few field goals that are assisted is because of his strong tendancy to pound the air out of the ball and diminish the movement of the offense. Jamal Crawford does the same thing. Eric Gordon is actually a great example, because like Joe, his only produced around 4 wins this season for the Clippers. Like Joe, Eric Gordon is a shot chucker who does very little else that helps a team win.

The one negative about that move is the fact that Joe is already a horrible rebounding shooting guard. He might be even worse as a rebounder at the small forward position. The advantage of it would be that it will allow the team to move him away from guarding opposing point guards and shooting guards, neither of which he does very well, to guarding small forwards. The negative to that though is that his size advantage would be negated by a move to small forward.

Really, the best move that can be made with Joe Johnson is to move him and that albatross of a contract to another team. That's the only way the Hawks will be able to give themselves a chance to take that next step and get better, because that contract will prevent the Hawks to do so. Joe's contract is the cap that is on this team right now.

Joe doesn't really use his size so much anyway... And as I said, he dribbles so much because he can't past his man. It's only going to get worse as he gets older. And yes, I know he's not good on the boards, more help at the center spot could help make up for some of this.

[Diesel]

1 - It isn't. Pierce @ that time > JJ now & then, period.

2 - Seattle wanted to rebuild trough the draft & to get under the cap, so in a similar situation your scenario isn't going to get it done.

3 & 4 - So, there's NY, Miami & us offering the same $ to Dalembert. You really think he's going to end up here??????? No, hell no. Isn't happening. Sorry. Howard isn't coming here & neither CP3. Let's get real.

Horford is better than Lopez, no thanks. Bogut is close to Al when injured, but healthy is > Al so I don't think that Bucks will do it in real life. Marc Gasol > Al & don't make sense for Memphis to do that trade. How are you going to get captain Jack? We have our Pietrus & our Ariza, his name is Marvin Williams & is overpaid. We don't need another overpaid player like Ariza or Marvin, no thanks.

Give me something feasible that can, indeed, make us contenders with the posibility of loosing our six man & other teams also getting better.

We are not going to agree on the values we place on players... That much is evident.

Pierce's team won 24 games total while he put up big points. Pierce wasn't a better player, he was the best option. It was Iso Paul all day.

We don't agree about the following:

Horf vs. Lopez.

Lopez is just better. He's younger, bigger, faster. Horf rebounds better ,but that's the only thing Horf does in the post.

Each of the guys mentioned are 7 footers with low post offense and they play defense.

Two things that Horf doesn't excel at.

You say Bogut is close is a joke right??

Bogut = More rebounds, twice as many blocks...

Please don't tell me that you believe that Marvin is equivalent to Ariza or Pietrus?

Capn Jack is on the trade blocks. They'd easily do Jack for Hinrich.

Maybe Hinrich and Marvin for Jack and Diaw.

Edited May 29, 2011 by Diesel

[MaceCase]

Lowballed?

The offer for Smith, considering where he was as a player at that time, was just about right.

The offer for JJ was the MAX they could've offered him for a 4 year extension.

The offer for Horford was about 2 mill a year less than the max he could've received ( I think ) . . .

Of the 3, do you know why Horford was the one that accepted his deal? Even if he thought he was worth more than 12 million a year, the uncertainty of the new CBA . . and the projected reduction of the salary cap and possible new salary structure . . were major influences in why Horford didn't take a chance on becoming a restricted free agent, and accepting the deal from the ASG. Had it been a regular year, Horford may have turned down the offer too.

And to be honest, it's commonplace for good restricted free agents to turn down the initial extension from their team, especially if they think they can get more money in the open market.

So offering a player less money than what they can receive in the open market is not low balling? Good to know.

You seem shellshocked by the 60 mill number I said the ASG would offer Jamal if JJ wasn't here. OK, so forget about the 4 year - 60 million. What do you think they would've offered Jamal? Or better yet . . if you were the ASG/Sund, what kind of extension would you offered Jamal? Now keep in mind that if Jamal doesn't agree to an extension before June 30th, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. And that means that this is JJ all over again for them. It's not like we can wait for a team to throw a deal at him, and we match it. No. We either have to be aggressive and get him to sign, or watch him go to another team and try to get SOMETHING from his departure. Remember, you're not only trying to get him to sign the deal that you want, your deal has to be attractive enough for him to sign, when everybody else is coming at him as well.

So forget 4 yrs - 60 million. What would you offer Jamal if he were an unrestricted free agent, and would you feel that would be good enough to get Jamal to re-sign?

So what's the offer that the ASG has given Jamal? You are spending paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs explaining his great importance to management and how much they value him as either a possible SG replacement or 6th man yet.......where's his extension offer at least? The ASG could low ball him also with a smaller contract due to the uncertainty of the next CBA yet.....where's the beef? See what arguing the certainty of nothing gets you? He is by all definition still the entirety of the bench and we are even more capped out than before to find a replacement(s) yet........no need to keep repeating the obvious, I'm sure even you get my point by now on your personal boogie man..

See . . I gave Wesley props all throughout that last post. I didn't diss that dude. I just said that he wasn't as good as JJ 6 years ago. And he isn't. And I didn't compare him to Marvin. I said that I wish Marvin would play like him, because we then wouldn't have a lot of problem with Marvin. Matthews is a good, solid player. He plays his role on both ends of the floor well. And I said that Wesley was a good finisher on fast breaks. But in the halfcourt offense, yeah, he mainly just sits back and shoots 3s. Almost 40% of his shots last year were 3 pointers . . and he made 41% of them. If Marvin could do what Wesley does, Marvin would be an asset.

But Wesley is no Joe Johnson 6 years ago.

Joe Johnson 6 years ago was being mentioned in the same breath as Ray Allen, Michael Redd and Larry Hughes. All of those guys received max or close to max deals . . including Joe Johnson. And only Allen has had a more successful career in the past 6 years, than JJ. And JJ put himself on the radar the previous season, without Nash. Nash just made his game from a 3 point shooting standpoint much, much easier.

I'm sorry man . . but that lineup isn't "deep". Zaza is a serviceable center, but nowhere near what a decent center should be. Marvin has major issues these days. Jamal is Jamal. Bibby broke down around Christmas. Jordan would still not play, and Teague's face may still be on the milk carton, if not for Hinrich's injury. I think Drew had to play Teague vs Chicago. But if Hinrich was healthy, Teague would've been lucky to see 10 minutes a game. And he would've been playing alongside Jamal and Marvin and Zaza . . instead of JJ and Smith and Horford. It's obvious that Teague plays better with the starters, specifically alongside Joe Johnson. Why he struggles playing alongside Jamal, I do not know.

But that team is not deep. We would still have major issues on the frontline, and only one real shot creator who could get his own shot and make it at times.

And again, the fallacy that you and Diesel are falling into and trying to preach is that if we lose Joe Johnson then we must get a player of the same, equal or greater ability in return. Never mind having a greater overall roster or multiple players that can readily duplicate one overpaid guy's production and are better fits, nope, unless they can go iso 90% of the time they don't have worth to a team. Never mind that Matthews was the second leading scorer on playoff team riddled by injuries, a playoff team that managed to win 4 more games in a tougher conference than the Hawks. Again you are looking to the how and not just the results of how a player scores, next you are going to tell me that Dirk has less worth than Joe because he's required to be assisted on 63% of his offense. Probably why he makes less too.

Your second paragraph is laughable. That team is not deep...... yet some of the same players you are talking down on.....still exist on the actual roster that offers less depth than that......Oh yea, I forget Joe's getting paid like 3 people so you might as well count him as such. More on this later.

If they did, that would mean that they're not worried about winning at this time. Which was my point about that team being a 6 - 8 seed in the East, instead of a 4 or 5 seed. But honestly, I don't think Drew's rotation would change that much. He's a 1st year coach with a very small amount of time to prove himself. If he didn't think Teague and Jordan were ready, he wouldn't experiment playing them and risk losing games and possibly missing the playoffs. He'd trust the vets, just like Woody did. He didn't even think about playng Jordan when JJ went down, opting to give Damien all of those minutes. And Teague only got a shot in the playoffs because Hinrich went down.

- Hinrich would start, and Jamal would still play the point so that he could control the ball and get his own shot

- Because of that, Teague would still get limited minutes

- Jordan would get zero minutes, because Wesley would be solid enough to play the SG 25 - 30 minutes a night, while Jamal alternated between playing the point and the 2.

- We'd still get killed on the boards, because we would've have done nothing to address the frontline issues. I guess Collins would be signed, but we'd need a rebounder. ( Sund knew that last year, and didn't get us one, so what changes in his decision making, if JJ isn't here? )

So unless the ASG gave their blessing to Drew, and told him to develop the young players and he wouldn't get blamed for any slippage in the standings, then no . . I don't think much would change here at all.

And again, despite losing Joe and replacing him with two younger vets......The rational thinking of the coach and management is to run the team and hold it to the same standard as before when Joe was still here. Instead of putting more effort into identifying earlier who and what will work best rather they'd prefer to go back and trusting the old tried true formula even though the equations have changed drastically....*sigh* Either you are just ignorant to the obvious or you are being willfully obtuse on this. When Joe was out for that 9 game stretch the team won 5 games and that was with shitty depth that sported Mo starting a few games. We are talking about a coach that also didn't even settle into a set rotation until the last quarter of the season with a tested playoff team yet you see no wiggle room in his game plan. Nope instead the gameplan would have been do everything the same just without Joe to play the Joe role. Ay Yi Yi! Why even bring up rebounding, lol? What does Joe do to alleviate that?

Solo is a scrub and a hack machine. The only reason why I brought Solo up, was because Sund managed to bring in players who were WORSE than Solo . . which was incredible. LOL @ blaming JJ for the bums that were here. You forget that Sund

- re-signed Randolph Morris to a 2 year deal ( Randolph Morris now )

- passed on Dejuan Blair and took Jeff Teague, when Blair was easily the best player on the board at that time, and the reboundeder we needed.

- signed Joe Smith

- signed Jason Collins when he was grossly out of shape

- signed Josh Powell, when he's done little to nothing in this league

- signed Etan Thomas, who hasn't been a productive role player in 4 - 5 years

Don't blame JJ for Sund's inability to bring in decent big men . . even decent scrub big men. Sund has never been good at evaluating big men. I would've rather Sund throw 3 - 4 million at a decent big man, that to populate the bench with bottom of the barrel minimum vet guys.

Yea remind me when RandMo was signed again? At the beginning of Sund's tenure was it? In only his 3rd year in the league right? No I don't see how that would fit the ideal back then where we had young developmental scrubs on the roster before the switch to more tried and true vet scrubs.

Please don't hang any argument on that Blair tidbit there, lol. So did 29 other teams and due to his very glaring medical redflag not even the Spurs took a risk on him with a guaranteed contract.

Again all of these bigs have proven more in the league and at the minimum have good experience which is a lot better situation than continuing to spend a lot more money on shot in the dark scrubs (Othello, RandmMo, Solo) who, without coincidence, didn't manage to achieve anything either.

LOL . . and you're blaming JJ for Sund trying to upgrade the talent around JJ? That's what a GM is supposed to do. JJ, Smith, and Horford are "the core", and they needed help. The Bibby and Jamal moves helped propel us into the playoffs. But nobody told that dude to re-sign Bibby, and not go after an Andre Miller.

Upgrade? No, I blame him for bringing in "talent" that singularly fit around our massive overpaid blackhole. Andre Miller? Really North? Nobody told Sund not to bring in a ball dominant PG that doesn't space the floor......lmao you showed your *ss on that one. I'm sure he didn't have a ball dominant 2guard that needs guys to space the floor for him in mind when he made that omission.

Nobody told Sund to hire a coach that would play Jamal in the same way as Woody did, stunting Teague's growth ( unless ownership told him to hire Drew . . which they probably did ).

Get your Jamal hate in while you can I guess, another subtle jab because clearly it was Jamal's fault.

Nobody told Sund to bring in Josh Powell, a finesse PF when we desperately needed a physical one. But that's Sund. When it comes to big men, Sund can't evaluate a big man to save his life.

You must have missed the campaign by the ASG where every state of Georgia player gets a run with the Hawks, build up that hometown fanbase I guess. Admittedly weak but I've pointed out throughout the years that we invest a good amount of change on guys simply because they are from here.

LOL . . well why can't that "professional GM" of ours do a better job with his talent evaluation of free agents? Why are we wasting money on flat out scrubs, instead of being able to find diamonds in the rough like an Asik in Chicago, or a Barea in Dallas? Kurt Thomas was available last year. Why not go and get him, instead of Josh Powell? Couldn't get Dampier. Didn't want to use the #31 on a big man, even a project big man.

Yea, Sund should have gone back three years and traded into the early 2nd round and picked up Asik or gone even further back and signed Barea. Yes the even more ancient Kurt Thomas who can only play exclusively at undersized C now. Yes the same one legged Dampier that not even desperate Miami wants. A project big? With a 29 year old getting paid 120 million? Yea I'm sure we would have time to develop him thus why Sund reiterated the transition to vets rather than youth when explaining the trade.

It would stay the same because that's all Sund knows. The dude did the same thing in Seattle that he's doing here. He kept that team the same, believing in guys like Luke Ridnour and Nick Collison. Signing guys like Earl Watson, and hoping he could help them win games because Luke couldn't play a lick of defense. He kept the "core" of that team the same, until his ownership basically forced him to completely dismantle the team, starting with not re-signing Rashard Lewis. After that, it was a fire sale in Seattle. Sund spent 3 consecutive 1st round picks in 3 years, trying to find that elusive big man in the draft. Robert Swift? Johan Petro? Saer Sene? ( lol @ the argument that Walter made for that guy over Shelden Williams . . and they both ended up sucking, but Sene was horrible ). I mean damn, that dude got rid of Nate McMillan, and hired Bob Weiss? Come on now.

You view my mindset as "apocalyptic", while I view your mindset as "delusional".

So because JJ is gone, Sund is all of a sudden going to start making great decisions with personnel and coaches, how he dishes out contracts, and how the team is constructed as a whole? Drew's motion offense is suddenly going to work, because the horrific ISO GUY that kills ball flow is gone? A team full of decent role players are going to succeed, and everything will gel just fine? The ASG are going to become some savvy management group that is going to be able to get the most bang for their buck?

Not buying that at all.

So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

No your view is apocalyptic and it's not about me seeing the sunny side of everything either it's just this glaring truth that we all had to swallow when that contract was inked, this team has locked itself into mediocrity for the next half decade. You are talking s*** about the GM, talking s*** about the ownership and how they can't make the right decisions yet......you want to defend them being even further tied by the worst decision they've made?! Here's your rationale, there's no way a team with a bad coach, bad GM, bad owners and zero flexibility could be worse than that same team with flexibility. Now who's delusional?

[sasuke]

We are not going to agree on the values we place on players... That much is evident.

Pierce's team won 24 games total while he put up big points. Pierce wasn't a better player, he was the best option. It was Iso Paul all day.

Pierce is one of the most underrated players in recent history. He was a beast offensively & defensively . He was as much, if not more clutch than Kobe. Despite having KG & Allen, he was their best player in the finals with such a great performance that at the end landed him the finals MVP. JJ can't ever do that in such a stacked team like Boston was.

We don't agree about the following:

Horf vs. Lopez.

Lopez is just better. He's younger, bigger, faster. Horf rebounds better ,but that's the only thing Horf does in the post.

I'm a 100% sure that if we run our offense trough Al( which I can't understand why isn't happening ) the same way NJ runs their offense trough Lopez you would take that back. Lopez is the go to guy in NJ & here Al is behind JJ, Jamal & Smoove on the offensive end. Lopez is butter.

Each of the guys mentioned are 7 footers with low post offense and they play defense.

Two things that Horf doesn't excel at.

Taking out Lopez, I understand that, & that's why I don't think that those trades are realistic options, but some how you do.

You say Bogut is close is a joke right??

Bogut = More rebounds, twice as many blocks...

I said when injured is close, & I meant in terms of how much they can help their team win but not how, cuz they play way different from each other. But I also said that when Bogut is healthy is better than Al ( > means better) & that's why I don't think the trade make sense for the Bucks.

Please don't tell me that you believe that Marvin is equivalent to Ariza or Pietrus?

Yes, I am.

Capn Jack is on the trade blocks. They'd easily do Jack for Hinrich.

Maybe Hinrich and Marvin for Jack and Diaw.

They passed on Butler & a 1rst for Jack. Maybe if we are lucky, Hinrich & a 1rst can get it done. But man, getting Marvin & Diaw involved doesn't have any logic. That will be a swap of expirings + a swap of a bad contract (Marvin) that they don't want or need for a better contract & player in Jack. Now, don't know if having iso Joe & iso Jack, or the combination of attitudes of Smoove & Jack is going to change things for good. We shouldn't have a run & gun front court with iso players on the wing. That is like oil & water.

Edited May 29, 2011 by sasuke

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Let's see if I can respond to C to C's points without writing novels for each point. This will be hard.

** Smith wasn't lowballed . . JJ was offered the MAX 4 year extension . . and Horford wasn't lowballed. It's just that in the NBA, and in pro sports in general, other teams may desperately want your services. So a fair market value type deal, becomes a highly inflated deal. In essence, this is what happened to the Hawks with JJ last summer. He probably should've been paid 5 yrs - 80 mill . . or 6 yrs - 95 mill. But because NY and CHI were probably willing to give JJ a MAX deal themselves, they had to decide to either let him go, or retain him. If they keep him, they're almost a lock to make the playoffs for the next few years. IF they let him go, the future becomes uncertain AND JJ goes to an Eastern Conference team that could leap ahead of us. So the ASG did what they thought they had to do.

** Jamal is important to the ASG. But the minute they offered JJ that contract and he signed it, extending Jamal wasn't a top priority. The ASG is still intent on operating the team under the Luxury Tax, and they now have 64 mill committed to 7 players. Without JJ and that contract, that number would be significantly lower, thus, giving the ASG plenty of room to give Jamal a nice offer that he may agree to.

** Denver is a team that somewhat validates your example of a team that loses a main scorer, but compensates for that with multiple players and other people stepping up. But as we saw in the playoffs, the problem arises when defenses stiffen, and someone on that team needs to step up and become a guy who can score off the dribble. Incredibly, Ty Lawson had to almost become that guy for Denver vs OKC. The great balance on offense that Denver had shown after the Melo trade, had become stifled by the OKC defense. And your guy, Wilson Chandler, straight up crashed and burned in the playoffs, becoming useless offensively ( 4 ppg - 4 rebs - 28% FG ), and was even sent to the bench after being the starter most of his time in Denver. When push comes to shove, you need guys who can put the ball in the hole, even if it's a JJ who can only do it 50% of the time. Better than 50% of the time, than 15% of the time.

** I'm not worried about the 29 other teams that passed on Blair, and the 6 other teams that let him slip past them again in Round 2. I believe San Antonio, seeing that guy freefall more, traded up to get him at #37. C to C, it just proves that most of the GMs around the league have no idea how to evaluate talent. That's why certain teams seem to always find the diamonds in the rough and other teams take chances on guys who can't play on the NBA level. If Da'sean Butler comes back from that knee injury, the Spurs will have an instant 6th man to bring off the bench. The Heat were the ones that took the kid, but let him go to add Dampier. So what do the Spurs do? They snatch that kid right up. Watch for him next year, while we all hope and pray that our 2nd roung pick, Pape Sy, can be more than an bench ornament. F--- what those other 29 teams do. It still doesn't prohibit us from making possible savvy moves like that. That would be absolutely incredible to see the Spurs get both Blair AND Butler for basically pennies, with both guys being 1st round talents.

(( lol . . it's obvious that I can't do it. I can't answer in short sentences ))

** Andre Miller and his ability to run an offense, pass the ball, and play defense, would've been a gamechanger for the Hawks. He was the real PG that we needed. The penetrating PG that could get to the hole and set other people up, taking the ball out of JJ's hands at times. LOL . . most real good PGs are "ball dominant". Paul is ball dominant. Deron is ball dominant. Rose is ball dominant. Even Ty Lawson is ball dominant. I would've had no problem with Miller dominating the ball, as long as he scored at the rim and dished out those assists. You're talking about a guy who is guaranteed to get you 7 to 8 assists a game. He would've made the game for Smith and Horford much easier, while possibly even making JJ a more efficient shooter. But no . . let's retain Bibby because we don't want to shake up anything, and keep JJ as the defacto PG for the Hawks, forcing him to set up our actual PG for jumpers . . instead of the other way around.

** It wasn't Jamal's fault. I blasted Teague for most of his 2 years here, because I thought he wasn't a leader on the court ( especially when playing with Jamal ). No . . the people you blame are Teague ( for not showing that he could ball with the 2nd unit on a consistent basis ) and Drew ( including Woody ), who continued to trot Jamal out at the PG, when it was obvious that he had most of his troubles when he played the point, especially on defense. But neither coach trusted Teague to be the backup PG, so they played Jamal there.

** LOL @ all of the Georgia players. That's what I'm talking about. It's just incompetence by management to do that. That wouldn't change with JJ gone, if they actually believe that adding former Georgia "greats" to the Hawks will get a little more people to come to Hawk games. Who's next? We gonna trade for Sundiata Gaines so that he can backup Teague? He does have "Sund" in his name, and he played at Georgia . . so it's a perfect fit.

** Now who's talking doom and gloom . . lol. Kurt Thomas was a better option than any big man we added to the roster. Undersized, yes. But a good position defender. People used to ask if I was kin to Woody because I would defend him so much. Are you kin to Sund, or the nephew or brother of one of the owners?

** My rationale is that good players can overcome bad coaching and bad GM decisions. You win in the NBA with star caliber players, not a bunch of good players. JJ is a 5 time legit All-Star, but not a superstar. Horford and Smith are very good players. Jamal, when he's on, is a very good player. We need Teague to play at the level he played in the Chicago series from now on. Otherwise, the makeup of this team is poor. But stars can overcome a poorly constructed lineup, and even bad coaching. I used to be a defender, somewhat, of the ASG. But last summer brought me over to "the dark side". I can't support those cats anymore. Yeah I do support what they did with JJ, because we basically HAD to do it to stay a playoff level team. You talking about the team locking itself into mediocrity. Ish . . we've been locked into mediocrity for 40 years. Letting All-Star caliber players go isn't going to get us out of this mediocre rut. Evaluating talent a little better, on the other hand, could be a gamechanger.

(( Damn . . I can't do it. I'm just going to have to let you have the last word on this, and just leave it alone ))

[MaceCase]

So Smoove was offered 45mil was it? Ended up getting a contract for 58. That's not a lowball. JJ was offered 60 for 4 years? Ended up signing for 124. That's not a low ball.

Oh Jesus, it seems that offering someone less money than you and they know they can get in free agency is now not lowballing them. You know the word free in free agency is inspired by "free market". The market determines something's value, gold is worth what it is because people say it's worth that much but it really is just a rock that has limited uses. Now I can say I'll give you 100 for that gold chain of yours and you can check the exchange and see that the chain is actually worth 150, you just got lowballed. Now I can be damn desperate for that gold chain and offer you 200 for it, 50 more than anyone else can or is willing to offer you, and you'll act woeful in front of me but will break down laughing once you get around the corner counting your money.

Soooooo we are still operating under the OPINION that the ASG would have looked at that pile of cash of theirs and say to themselves that they just gotta burn it right away on whoever they could?

Glad of you to mention that we are a worse a team already next season thanks to JJ's contract now that the team can't even afford a Jamal with their salary restrictions.

Soooooo your argument that we would have been a borderline playoff team in the east with a deeper team is to move the goal posts and talk about the PLAYOFF performance of the Nuggets..... Wow, you must really just look at your feet when you walk because you don't ever seem to see anything that's coming. What I saw was that Denver team play 4 extremely close games against the western conference runner ups without one of their key cogs in Aaron Afflalo and they were still a bad call away from making it even more of a series. Just for future reference North, it would behoove you follow the full process of your logic when you argue and not just stop at where you think you made a point. Simply following the progression of what you've typed I've worked my way back to my original point but with even more evidence now thanks to you.

Yea it is obvious that you can't talk in short sentences because you enjoy going off on tangential escapades that distract from the actual discussion but nevertheless here you are talking about Blair and Butler... To remind you, again, no team spent a guaranteed contract on Blair by picking him in the 1st round, not even the team that eventually got him. I will also remind you that that summer we also had Mike Bibby, Marvin Williams and Zaza Pachulia as free agents, now remind me again which one of those players leaving left a hole at PF? Now the Spurs OTOH have spent years not only having good scouting but also being extremely cap conscious. They already have fine depth and it doesn't matter to them whether or not Butler never actually makes the roster or Blair breaks down midway through his rookie deal (a commitment they didn't even make) because Tim Duncan will be sitting on his porch in St. Croix in 2 years and they'll be in full rebuild mode anyway.

Back on Andre Miller again? The same Andre Miller that Brandon Roy wanted benched in favor of Steve Blake because he forced him to change his game? The Andre Miller that thrived more when Roy was injured and playing with the off ball maven Wes Matthews? That Andre Miller? Yea, I don't see how or why that wouldn't have been a good fit with the far less efficient Joe Johnson. Doesn't matter how good he would have been for Al and Josh, JJ is the one making the most amount of change so of course any hire has to work more for HIM if you want his contract to be worthwhile. Miller was available at the deadline this year too along with a whole slew of PGs yet.......we settled on the one that could play best off the ball. Lmao.

Glad to hear that you came off blaming Jamal and mentioned that too much blame couldn't be placed on the coaches either because Jamal actually asserted himself at PG.

Yea, it's absolutely terrible that management will populate the roster with the entire state of Georgia but again realize that those guys were mostly picked also because they were dirt cheap. Due to the salary commitments elsewhere *ahem* they are all the team can afford and just maybe some fans who saw them in high school or college or family will start showing up and buying tickets.....maybe.

Again, Milwaukee just let him go in favor of even overpaying a guy like Gooden and the only reason he saw time in Chicago was due to the injuries to Boozer and Noah. Once those two were healthy again he was entirely out of the rotation until late in the Miami series when Asik went down for good. Thomas is more effective at the Center position now and given the team's great craze to stop Dwight last summer he didn't fit the height or girth requirement. I don't see why you are waiting to now to cry about him anyway, weren't you riding high on the Shaq bandwagon......

Okay, North. I agree that GREAT players can overcome bad coaching and GMs but what you are arguing for is a 29 year old GOOD player who is more than likely on the decline due to minutes played AND age who's MASSIVE contract will not only prevent the team from acquiring or even just keeping talent not only due to it's amount but also it's ridiculous length. The franchise has been mediocre throughout it's history, yes, but at least there have been attempts to change before and less commitments to mediocre products. What you are more than content with is 12 years of the Joe Johnson era. An era that has produced 2 second round wins after 7 years. Hell Nique was at least at the cusp of an ECF early to earn 12 years with Hawks yet Joe has not reached the team or individual achievements that he had. Smitty and Deke were bumped after 4 full seasons, Reef was bumped after only 2 full seasons and Terry 5 yet somehow Joe gets 12! That just doesn't sit right with me.

Oh well, you really should take your advice and let me take the last word on this, North. All you're doing is weakening your position while feeding me more ammunition. We could do this for the full length of Joe's contract....or at least till you finally get disenchanted or I'm somehow eating crow while JJ is hoisting the Larry O'Brian trophy. Till then....then

[Diesel]

Actually, Pierce is not overrated. He is just not that good. Go back to the Antoine Walker days. He shined because Walker sucked and was a volume shooter. Anybody who plays conservatively while being along side a volume shooter who shoots everything from outside will shine. Pierce is not underrated because when he was made " Lead DOG" he put up great numbers and his team won only 24 games. And he had Rondo and Al Jefferson. Here's the truth. Peirce is a really good player but not MVP level and not a superstar. He can fit in well with KG and Allen because they allow him to be better.

Let me help you understand why we don't run offense through Al.

1. Al isn't a great passer.

2. Al doesn't have a consistent post move.

3. Al is a high post scorer who has to be given the ball in his spot to be effective.

4. Al does not create for himself.

The point that Amare Stoudamire proved is that if I stop Al from getting to his spot, he will not do anything. Noah and Gibson also forced that on Al. Al has spots that he's good from but he doesn't do well just giving the ball and told to go score or to make something happen. We only have 3 guys on this team that can do that. Lopez on the other hand can get the ball in the post and because he has big man moves he can make something happen. Al is as uncomfortable as a hooker in church when he gets the ball in the low post.

Tell me... How is Marvin equivalent to Trevor Ariza?

We're not talking about Hopes are wishes or potential... Marvin's time for all that is over. We're talking about what has he done? Marvin has done nothing. Marvin doesn't make an impact. NON Whatsoever.

[sasuke]

Actually, Pierce is not overrated. He is just not that good. Go back to the Antoine Walker days. He shined because Walker sucked and was a volume shooter. Anybody who plays conservatively while being along side a volume shooter who shoots everything from outside will shine. Pierce is not underrated because when he was made " Lead DOG" he put up great numbers and his team won only 24 games. And he had Rondo and Al Jefferson. Here's the truth. Peirce is a really good player but not MVP level and not a superstar. He can fit in well with KG and Allen because they allow him to be better.

I disagree, but If you replace Pierce with JJ in your scenario he won't do better than Pierce.

Let me help you understand why we don't run offense through Al.

1. Al isn't a great passer.

Not great but good enough. no need to be great

2. Al doesn't have a consistent post move.

I'll give you that.

3. Al is a high post scorer who has to be given the ball in his spot to be effective.

Then feed him in the right spot, dahhh!!!!!

4. Al does not create for himself.

You don't need to create for yourself if the team has a good offensive scheme, which it hasn't.

The point that Amare Stoudamire proved is that if I stop Al from getting to his spot, he will not do anything. Noah and Gibson also forced that on Al. Al has spots that he's good from but he doesn't do well just giving the ball and told to go score or to make something happen. We only have 3 guys on this team that can do that. Lopez on the other hand can get the ball in the post and because he has big man moves he can make something happen. Al is as uncomfortable as a hooker in church when he gets the ball in the low post.

Give me Al's defensive game, energy & rebound over Lopez offensive game any day.

Tell me... How is Marvin equivalent to Trevor Ariza?

Role players, Ariza a bit better defender, Marvin is a bit better offensive player & way more athletic than Ariza. Ariza has one more year on his ugly contract.

We're not talking about Hopes are wishes or potential... Marvin's time for all that is over. We're talking about what has he done? Marvin has done nothing. Marvin doesn't make an impact. NON Whatsoever.

I don't have any hopes of Marvin being a superstar in the future. Role player at best. But you are higher on him than I am cuz of the trade value that your think he has. I think he has no value.

Edited May 31, 2011 by sasuke