Joe's Beastly March.

[Eddielives]

1. Kobe Bryant LA Lakers $25,244,000

2. Rashard Lewis Washington $22,152,000

3. Tim Duncan San Antonio $21,300,000

4. Kevin Garnett Boston $21,200,000

5. Gilbert Arenas Orlando $19,569,308

6. Dirk Nowitzki Dallas $19,092,873

7. Pau Gasol LA Lakers $18,714,150

8. Carmelo Anthony New York $18,520,000

9. Amare Stoudemire New York $18,217,705

10. Joe Johnson Atlanta $18,038,573

11. Dwight Howard Orlando $17,885,400

12. Elton Brand Philadelphia $17,059,726

13. Deron Williams New Jersey $16,359,805

14. Chris Paul LA Clippers $16,359,805

15. Kevin Durant Oklahoma City $16,324,500

16. LeBron James Miami $16,022,500

17. Chris Bosh Miami $16,022,500

18. Dwyane Wade Miami $15,512,000

19. Paul Pierce Boston $15,333,334

20. Baron Davis Cleveland / New York $15,302,181

The guys not earning their pay on that list are Lewis, Garnett, Arenas, Gasol, Amare, Joe, Elton and Baron Davis. 2 of those guys have rings where they contributed in the clutch to help their team.

And once again, my words seem to evade your brain. I have never said Joe isn't valuable to the Hawks or that it's his fault for his contract. I would have done the same thing if I were Joe, probably. I have never said he isn't the best player on our team and I realize that signing him has kept us at least in contention, theoretically, to win a title by being in the playoffs the last several years. But you seem to be unable to understand that most people look at the big picture instead of a prism of the Hawks franchise situation and Joe's placement here with his bad contract. We're obviously never going to make any headway with each other because, as I've said, I can't look at Joe and not take into consideration his OVERALL performance AND HIS CONTRACT. If Joe plays like a superstar in the playoffs and even gets us to the finals, I will re-evaluate him and more than likely be singing a different tune. I just can't shake the pom poms for him and join any clubs that love or hate. It's just ridiculous to act as if there's any legitimate reason to believe he's going to go down in history as a guy who was deserving of his pay when you look at his career, at least thus far.

[ag82]

True, Joe is among the best 2s, but he can't really be generally classified as such. He can bring the ball up and facilitate like a 1, score over most smaller 2s, or defend many 3s when the matchups allow. The depth at 2 guard is very shallow (much like when Jordan played, considerably limiting his competition and easing his path to championships but I digress). I compare Joe to the pool of perimeter scorers that encompasses 1s, 2s, and 3s, and there are about 5-10 more players I'd rather have when age is considered off of offensive production and efficiency alone (the Currys (healthy), D. Williams, Roses, and Irvings of the world). Of course none of them could rival Joe's defensive consistency due to his perfect NBA body that he utilizes on defense much better than offensively.

I kind of agree with that. However, considering those PGs as competition for Joe at the same position doesn't really fit. The nets arent going to trade for Rose and vice versa since they can't play together regularly. Joe can play alongside any of those PGs just fine.D will, D rose, Curry, or Irving aren't going to step in for Joe at the 3, so I don't really see them as a fair comparison. I see Joe as a clear 2 or 3 and those guys as clear 1s. I still feel that he is at the top 5 at his position (which is really 2 positions).

Let me preface this by saying..."this is not Joe vs. Josh". This is about Joe's value. Joe didn't even have the best month (Josh +1.5 ppg in March, +6 rebounds, +.4 assists, + .4 steals, + 1.7 blocks and -.3 turnovers) and he isn't having the best year on his team.

So, in your opinion, why was Joe chosen as the player of the month instead of Josh?

[thecampster]

I kind of agree with that. However, considering those PGs as competition for Joe at the same position doesn't really fit. The nets arent going to trade for Rose and vice versa since they can't play together regularly. Joe can play alongside any of those PGs just fine.

D will, D rose, Curry, or Irving aren't going to step in for Joe at the 3, so I don't really see them as a fair comparison. I see Joe as a clear 2 or 3 and those guys as clear 1s. I still feel that he is at the top 5 at his position (which is really 2 positions).

So, in your opinion, why was Joe chosen as the player of the month instead of Josh?

Player of the week. He was player of the week. Player of the month will be announced in the next couple of days. Edited April 3, 2012 by thecampster

[ag82]

Ah I thought it was month.I'm still torn on Joe's salary. I don't really feel like the $18m this season is all that bad. Yes he is overpaid and when that salary goes up the next few years, I will definitely be more concerned. We just need to get rid of him when it gets into the $20m+ range.I think Joe is still a better deal (this year) at $18m than Kirk or Marvin for ~$8m a piece. Those guys don't bring much to the table for that kind of money. Should Joe be worth more than twice as much as Marvin or Kirk? I say yes. I think you can definitely make an argument that they are the most overpaid players on this team.

Edited April 3, 2012 by ag82

[Sothron]

How do you know that I am deliberately ingoring Joe's positive attributes? Are you a psychic? My position here is a very simple one. He hasn't shown that he can lead this team to a championship and be a consistently clutch player in the playoffs. I guess that makes me a member of your cute club. Hypocrisy? Define hypocrisy and please show me where I am saying one thing while not believing it or acting in a way that is contrary to anything I have said. I think you may have hypocrisy confused with another term.Not referring to me with an expletive? Why was your word not allowed to be viewed? Saying people are b*tching and whining, is in my opinion, disrespectful and only lowers the tone of the conversation down to grade school level. Think about it and I'm sure you will understand. Okay, so the Joe Hater club is for your amusement. Got it. That's funny. And to think before your response today that I thought you were one of the coolest squawk members and even believed you back when you were being attacked for being an inside source.

There is no reason for you to take my comments so personally. I suggest if you want to discuss this further send me a PM. AHF has already warned twice about not getting into personal attacks. And for the record I was not only viciously publicly attacked on this site under the old admin who did nothing with this site and let anything go both myself and my wife were threatened in PMs from people who no longer post here. Or at least don't use those accounts any longer.As for the Joe Hater Club, it is more than just for my amusement. There are a sizable amount of posters on this board heck there are several in this thread that continue to show what I meant when I "created" that.

[Eddielives]

There is no reason for you to take my comments so personally. I suggest if you want to discuss this further send me a PM. AHF has already warned twice about not getting into personal attacks. And for the record I was not only viciously publicly attacked on this site under the old admin who did nothing with this site and let anything go both myself and my wife were threatened in PMs from people who no longer post here. Or at least don't use those accounts any longer.As for the Joe Hater Club, it is more than just for my amusement. There are a sizable amount of posters on this board heck there are several in this thread that continue to show what I meant when I "created" that.

We're cool.

[Guest]

The guys not earning their pay on that list are Lewis, Garnett, Arenas, Gasol, Amare, Joe, Elton and Baron Davis. 2 of those guys have rings where they contributed in the clutch to help their team. And once again, my words seem to evade your brain. I have never said Joe isn't valuable to the Hawks or that it's his fault for his contract. I would have done the same thing if I were Joe, probably. I have never said he isn't the best player on our team and I realize that signing him has kept us at least in contention, theoretically, to win a title by being in the playoffs the last several years. But you seem to be unable to understand that most people look at the big picture instead of a prism of the Hawks franchise situation and Joe's placement here with his bad contract. We're obviously never going to make any headway with each other because, as I've said, I can't look at Joe and not take into consideration his OVERALL performance AND HIS CONTRACT. If Joe plays like a superstar in the playoffs and even gets us to the finals, I will re-evaluate him and more than likely be singing a different tune. I just can't shake the pom poms for him and join any clubs that love or hate. It's just ridiculous to act as if there's any legitimate reason to believe he's going to go down in history as a guy who was deserving of his pay when you look at his career, at least thus far.

You might as well throw Dirk in there (he came back outta shape this season), Carmelo has the Knicks struggling to maintin the 8th spot in the playoff, Deron Williams - see Nets record. Just a few short years ago when Dirk got swept out the playoffs by the 8th seeded Golden State then lost again the next year, what exactly was Dirk. Dirk didn't do it by himself, he had the complimentary pieces around him to help. As good as Carmelo is supposed to be, how far did he take the Nuggets? When LA played Boston the year before, check Kobe's shooting (Boston doubled him hard) - it was Pau who came up big in game 7. All I'm saying is - it will be less about Joe individually and more about the pieces around him and how LD utilizes them because the defense is always focused on stopping Joe 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

[Diesel]

The guys not earning their pay on that list are Lewis, Garnett, Arenas, Gasol, Amare, Joe, Elton and Baron Davis. 2 of those guys have rings where they contributed in the clutch to help their team. And once again, my words seem to evade your brain. I have never said Joe isn't valuable to the Hawks or that it's his fault for his contract. I would have done the same thing if I were Joe, probably. I have never said he isn't the best player on our team and I realize that signing him has kept us at least in contention, theoretically, to win a title by being in the playoffs the last several years. But you seem to be unable to understand that most people look at the big picture instead of a prism of the Hawks franchise situation and Joe's placement here with his bad contract. We're obviously never going to make any headway with each other because, as I've said, I can't look at Joe and not take into consideration his OVERALL performance AND HIS CONTRACT. If Joe plays like a superstar in the playoffs and even gets us to the finals, I will re-evaluate him and more than likely be singing a different tune. I just can't shake the pom poms for him and join any clubs that love or hate. It's just ridiculous to act as if there's any legitimate reason to believe he's going to go down in history as a guy who was deserving of his pay when you look at his career, at least thus far.

So... Tim Duncan is worth 21 Million this year?What about Carmelo?How about Bosh?Eddie, I'm excited that you tried to justify this year with these salaries. It's crazy. Not many players earn what they have. What they have is either a payoff for what they already done or stay money. In Joe's case it was stay money. Rarely do you see a GM pay big bucks for Potential... and if he does, he should be fired.

You might as well throw Dirk in there (he came back outta shape this season), Carmelo has the Knicks struggling to maintin the 8th spot in the playoff, Deron Williams - see Nets record. Just a few short years ago when Dirk got swept out the playoffs by the 8th seeded Golden State then lost again the next year, what exactly was Dirk. Dirk didn't do it by himself, he had the complimentary pieces around him to help. As good as Carmelo is supposed to be, how far did he take the Nuggets? When LA played Boston the year before, check Kobe's shooting (Boston doubled him hard) - it was Pau who came up big in game 7. All I'm saying is - it will be less about Joe individually and more about the pieces around him and how LD utilizes them because the defense is always focused on stopping Joe 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

Point is over half of the top 20 paid players don't live up to the contract this year... but it's not about that.Timmy D is making 21 Million. Does he get railed on like we rail on Joe? Right now, Josh is putting up better stats than Timmy D.

[Guest]

So... Tim Duncan is worth 21 Million this year?What about Carmelo?How about Bosh?Eddie, I'm excited that you tried to justify this year with these salaries. It's crazy. Not many players earn what they have. What they have is either a payoff for what they already done or stay money. In Joe's case it was stay money. Rarely do you see a GM pay big bucks for Potential... and if he does, he should be fired.Point is over half of the top 20 paid players don't live up to the contract this year... but it's not about that.Timmy D is making 21 Million. Does he get railed on like we rail on Joe? Right now, Josh is putting up better stats than Timmy D.

I actually agree with you Diesel, I was only showing that other name should be on the list. I am so over Joe and his contract. He is an Atlanta Hawk and we couldn't get anybody better than him considering the financial situation of the team.

[AtLaS]

So... Tim Duncan is worth 21 Million this year?What about Carmelo?How about Bosh?Eddie, I'm excited that you tried to justify this year with these salaries. It's crazy. Not many players earn what they have. What they have is either a payoff for what they already done or stay money. In Joe's case it was stay money. Rarely do you see a GM pay big bucks for Potential... and if he does, he should be fired.Point is over half of the top 20 paid players don't live up to the contract this year... but it's not about that.Timmy D is making 21 Million. Does he get railed on like we rail on Joe? Right now, Josh is putting up better stats than Timmy D.

This is a terrible comparison. I'll take Tim Duncan or KG from 2006-12 over Joe from 2010-2016. You are comparing Joe to players at the end of their contracts, they were still dominant and their teams were competing for championships when they signed. Try comparing 2012 KG/Duncan to 2016 Joe Johnson (who will be making 4 million more than both of them). Joe still has 4 more years left of increasing salary, it's only the beginning of his contract and his stats have already begun to falter. Joe's contract is in Rashard's category IMO, but Orlando at least was competing for a championship when they made the signing and they at least made it to the Finals. In two years Joe's contract will be the worst contract in the league and it won't be close. We are lucky for the amnesty clause, but it's not going to help because even though it gives us cap relief, the ASG will be responsible for the remaining money.

[Diesel]

This is a terrible comparison. I'll take Tim Duncan or KG from 2006-12 over Joe from 2010-2016. You are comparing Joe to players at the end of their contracts, they were still dominant and their teams were competing for championships when they signed. Try comparing 2012 KG/Duncan to 2016 Joe Johnson (who will be making 4 million more than both of them). Joe still has 4 more years left of increasing salary, it's only the beginning of his contract and his stats have already begun to falter. Joe's contract is in Rashard's category IMO, but Orlando at least was competing for a championship when they made the signing and they at least made it to the Finals. In two years Joe's contract will be the worst contract in the league and it won't be close. We are lucky for the amnesty clause, but it's not going to help because even though it gives us cap relief, the ASG will be responsible for the remaining money.

That wasn't the question.The point made is that players are not judged based on their current paycheck. UNLESS your name is Joe Johnson. Joe can go out and put up a triple double for the season. He'd still be making 118 Million to some of these fans. At some point, we have to take our focus off the money and put it back on the court. On the court, if we put the right players around Joe, he could be just as effective as KG or Duncan For us. I recall when KG was with Minny... He was 21, 6, and 6... but couldn't win in the playoffs. He was a 20 Million dollar player but couldn't win in the playoffs. Did anybody measure him by his contract? Did anybody talk about the reason that Minny couldn't win was because of KG's contract?IF you truly want to talk about finance and not what's on the court, let's talk about the fact that Hinrich makes 8 million, Marvin Makes 8 million and if you wiped them from the Books, we could get 16 million in good players.

[Eddielives]

That wasn't the question.The point made is that players are not judged based on their current paycheck. UNLESS your name is Joe Johnson. Joe can go out and put up a triple double for the season. He'd still be making 118 Million to some of these fans. At some point, we have to take our focus off the money and put it back on the court. On the court, if we put the right players around Joe, he could be just as effective as KG or Duncan For us. I recall when KG was with Minny... He was 21, 6, and 6... but couldn't win in the playoffs. He was a 20 Million dollar player but couldn't win in the playoffs. Did anybody measure him by his contract? Did anybody talk about the reason that Minny couldn't win was because of KG's contract?IF you truly want to talk about finance and not what's on the court, let's talk about the fact that Hinrich makes 8 million, Marvin Makes 8 million and if you wiped them from the Books, we could get 16 million in good players.

This topic is about Joe, not other players. Your question is a fair one but you realize you're having to construct pretty strict parameters to make your point seem a little more valid. Why can't you just accept that Joe still has something to prove to certain Hawks fans like myself(and I'm not saying he hasn't done some nice things for this franchise and I'm not saying I don't realize his positive attributes) before we can just go around patting him on the back for such a great job? Like I said, if Joe can play like he's been playing recently in the playoffs, then I believe myself and others who are thinking along the same lines will be singing a different tune. So again, where's the problem with that line of thinking? I can't see where that's unreasonable and requires such strident defensive posturing from you Diesel.

[Diesel]

This topic is about Joe, not other players. Your question is a fair one but you realize you're having to construct pretty strict parameters to make your point seem a little more valid. Why can't you just accept that Joe still has something to prove to certain Hawks fans like myself(and I'm not saying he hasn't done some nice things for this franchise and I'm not saying I don't realize his positive attributes) before we can just go around patting him on the back for such a great job? Like I said, if Joe can play like he's been playing recently in the playoffs, then I believe myself and others who are thinking along the same lines will be singing a different tune. So again, where's the problem with that line of thinking? I can't see where that's unreasonable and requires such strident defensive posturing from you Diesel.

Well that just it eddie.Do you ever see yourself getting beyond Joe's Salary (regardless of what he does)?If the Hawks win the Championship this year and Joe was the MVP of the playoffs, would you still be sitting here saying... "But he's still overpaid"?My contention is that yes, Joe has something to prove... as a Hawk.. but not as the guy making __________ Million dollars. Nobody is still arguing about Joe being overpaid. We know he is... so when YOU accept that, maybe we can talk more realistically about Joe's expectations. Otherwise, i have my doubts if you will ever value his contribution to our team's success.

[AtLaS]

That wasn't the question.The point made is that players are not judged based on their current paycheck. UNLESS your name is Joe Johnson.

I don't agree. If Joe was in the last year of his contract and making 18 million I doubt many here would be complaining. The problem is that 18 million is only the 2nd year of his contract. His salary increases for the next 4 years and he is already on the decline. That's what we complain about.

He'd still be making 118 Million to some of these fans. At some point, we have to take our focus off the money and put it back on the court. On the court, if we put the right players around Joe, he could be just as effective as KG or Duncan For us. I recall when KG was with Minny... He was 21, 6, and 6... but couldn't win in the playoffs. He was a 20 Million dollar player but couldn't win in the playoffs. Did anybody measure him by his contract? Did anybody talk about the reason that Minny couldn't win was because of KG's contract?

Actually, people did talk about KG's contract. He was the highest paid player in the league for a while. But, he was a legit top 10 player and arguably top 5. And, they did make the WCF.

IF you truly want to talk about finance and not what's on the court, let's talk about the fact that Hinrich makes 8 million, Marvin Makes 8 million and if you wiped them from the Books, we could get 16 million in good players.

The Hawks have made lots of bad decisions with money. Joe is just another example, and it's magnified because he's making Kobe money.

[Sothron]

You know as an aside to this conversation: we all know if the A$G did decide to amnesty Joe that we wouldn't find any player worth the cap space that would free up. Does anyone here seriously think they'd replace his salary? They still have to pay Joe even if they amnesty him.

[AtLaS]

You know as an aside to this conversation: we all know if the A$G did decide to amnesty Joe that we wouldn't find any player worth the cap space that would free up.

That's a hypothetical statement and can't be proved. Having cap space opens a lot of doors, including trades where we can take in significantly more salary than we lose. Not to mention we could focus on rebuilding which is what we need to do at this point. We are stuck in mediocrity and that is not going to change with a contract like Joe's on the books.

They still have to pay Joe even if they amnesty him.

They only have to pay the difference in what another team gives him versus his contract. But, that will still be a large amount for someone who doesn't contribute to the team if he is amnestied. If another team gives Joe 10 million per, the ASG will still owe Joe $15 million in 2016. We are handcuffed by this contract.

[Sothron]

That's a hypothetical statement and can't be proved. Having cap space opens a lot of doors, including trades where we can take in significantly more salary than we lose. Not to mention we could focus on rebuilding which is what we need to do at this point. We are stuck in mediocrity and that is not going to change with a contract like Joe's on the books. They only have to pay the difference in what another team gives him versus his contract. But, that will still be a large amount for someone who doesn't contribute to the team if he is amnestied. If another team gives Joe 10 million per, the ASG will still owe Joe $15 million in 2016. We are handcuffed by this contract.

I can't believe anyone who seriously follows the Hawks thinks our pathetic ownership would be able to entice anyone here while they are still the owners. No one wants to play here as long as they are here. We had to overpay Joe to stay for that exact reason. That cap space you think will open doors? It will go to waste unless they overpaid someone else to come here. No big name player is going to walk through that door.You talk about rebuilding? For what? The only way you win rings in this league is with superstars. Joe is the closest thing we will get to that outside of some miracle draft pick as long as we have those deadbeat owners. The most realistic thing they can accomplish is if Josh keeps insisting he wants out then they will trade him over the summer or at next season's trade deadline.

[AtLaS]

I can't believe anyone who seriously follows the Hawks thinks our pathetic ownership would be able to entice anyone here while they are still the owners. No one wants to play here as long as they are here. We had to overpay Joe to stay for that exact reason. That cap space you think will open doors? It will go to waste unless they overpaid someone else to come here. No big name player is going to walk through that door.You talk about rebuilding? For what? The only way you win rings in this league is with superstars. Joe is the closest thing we will get to that outside of some miracle draft pick as long as we have those deadbeat owners. The most realistic thing they can accomplish is if Josh keeps insisting he wants out then they will trade him over the summer or at next season's trade deadline.

Wasn't Donald Sterling considered one of the worst owners in the league until they drafted Blake Griffin? OKC got lucky with Durant. Chicago got lucky with Rose. Spurs with Duncan. You don't need to convince me that our owners are terrible. Bottom line, we'd have a much better shot at becoming elite by getting high draft picks than giving Joe 120 million. Joe is a borderline top 20 player. BORDERLINE. You don't give a player that kind of money and expect to compete, unless you are already competing or feel he is the missing piece. Bottom line, if we get lucky in the draft and a player becomes elite than players will want to play here regardless of ownership. I'll take that chance over sitting in mediocrity and slowly declining as a team for the next 5 years. Edited April 4, 2012 by AtLaS

[Sothron]

Wasn't Donald Sterling considered one of the worst owners in the league until they drafted Blake Griffin? OKC got lucky with Durant. Chicago got lucky with Rose. Spurs with Duncan. You don't need to convince me that our owners are terrible. Bottom line, we'd have a much better shot at becoming elite by getting high draft picks than giving Joe 120 million. Joe is a borderline top 20 player. BORDERLINE. You don't give a player that kind of money and expect to compete, unless you are already competing or feel he is the missing piece. Bottom line, if we get lucky in the draft and a player becomes elite than players will want to play here regardless of ownership. I'll take that chance over sitting in mediocrity and slowly declining as a team for the next 5 years.

How many times do myself and others have to repeat this: We had to overpay Joe because NO ONE ELSE was going to come here. If they let Joe walk for nothing that summer we would have had nothing to replace him. You said you want to get lucky in the draft like OKC? Look at teams like the Nets, the Bobcats, the Bucks, the Warriors, etc. that are in the lottery every year and every year they still remain a lottery team. Look at our own lottery years. We blew lottery pick after lottery pick before we finally hit a good one in Horford. Josh was a late teen's pick that payed out in spades.So your plan, as far as I can tell, is to blow up the roster with an ownership considered toxic by the rest of the NBA and pray that fans will still show up to watch more 20-62 seasons while we pray we get lucky with a lottery pick. Got it. And by the way, your examples with the Bulls and Spurs are extraordinary examples. Both were good teams that had one bad season and somehow lucked up with the number one pick to get a superstar young player in a can't miss draft. For that to happen to us we would have to miss the playoffs with this roster and get a number one pick in a can't miss draft. I just don't see that as a realistic option.

[AtLaS]

How many times do myself and others have to repeat this: We had to overpay Joe because NO ONE ELSE was going to come here. If they let Joe walk for nothing that summer we would have had nothing to replace him. You said you want to get lucky in the draft like OKC? Look at teams like the Nets, the Bobcats, the Bucks, the Warriors, etc. that are in the lottery every year and every year they still remain a lottery team. Look at our own lottery years. We blew lottery pick after lottery pick before we finally hit a good one in Horford. Josh was a late teen's pick that payed out in spades.So your plan, as far as I can tell, is to blow up the roster with an ownership considered toxic by the rest of the NBA and pray that fans will still show up to watch more 20-62 seasons while we pray we get lucky with a lottery pick. Got it. And by the way, your examples with the Bulls and Spurs are extraordinary examples. Both were good teams that had one bad season and somehow lucked up with the number one pick to get a superstar young player in a can't miss draft. For that to happen to us we would have to miss the playoffs with this roster and get a number one pick in a can't miss draft. I just don't see that as a realistic option.

We just disagree in principal. I respect your opinion in that you want to see the team in the playoffs. I like watching playoff teams as well, but I don't see a future contender in this team. We know what we have. I'd rather rebuild, simple as that. Especially in a deep draft such as this one.