Anybody else hate the easy path to the Finals for Miami?

[AHF]

There were only two teams that were going to challenge the Heat. The Bulls with Rose and the Celtics coming in healthy and motivated (because of matchups).Miami got a free pass when Rose went down and it looks like they will get a worn out and injured Celtics team to beat up on or a woefully outclassed Philly team.It makes me a bit ill. It is amazing that the West has SA, OKC, LAL, Memphis, and LAC that are all teams better than anyone Miami will face until the finals. I will be rooting for the Spurs or the Thunder when that matchup inevitably arrives.

[AHF]

I will be rooting for Boston without any hesitation in the series I dub the "do I have to root for one of these teams, well at least the Celtics have Rondo and aren't comprised of a bunch of stars that abandoned their teams and started celebrating their championships before they played a single game together."It is a long title, but appropo.

[MaceCase]

Miami would of only had the opportunity to go up against 1 of Chicago or Boston because of seeding so that had no bearing on their destiny. While Philly gave Boston a good fight, it would have been even more likely that the Bulls and Celtics would have beaten up on each other leaving the winner battered heading into a series with Miami. You could make the argument over Dwight being healthy for the Magic but I'd still give the edge to Indiana in that series and advancing to face the Heat. I can't possibly cheer for the Celtics either because they were the ones that ushered in the "collect a team of superstars" era. They made it chic having KG, Paul, and Ray with a slew of grizzly vets like Cassell, PJ Brown, Rasheed Wallace, Shaq and others bandwagoning along and taking the minimum to win a ring.

[dlpin]

I am not trying to "defend" the celtics and I have no illusions that this will change what people feel about them.But it is a pet peeve of mine this idea that the celtics created the "collect a team of superstars" thing.As long as there has been an NBA, there were superstar teams. Wilt demanding a trade to the lakers to play alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor? Jerry Lucas demanding a trade to the Knicks to join Walt Frazier and Willis Reed? And ring chasers are as old as the league itself too. Gary Payton to the heat, anyone?The heat did it differently than others in that it likely involved collusion by the players. But what the celtics did was nothing new.

[AHF]

I am not trying to "defend" the celtics and I have no illusions that this will change what people feel about them.But it is a pet peeve of mine this idea that the celtics created the "collect a team of superstars" thing.As long as there has been an NBA, there were superstar teams. Wilt demanding a trade to the lakers to play alongside Jerry West and Elgin Baylor? Jerry Lucas demanding a trade to the Knicks to join Walt Frazier and Willis Reed? And ring chasers are as old as the league itself too. Gary Payton to the heat, anyone?The heat did it differently than others in that it likely involved collusion by the players. But what the celtics did was nothing new.

Agreed.How did the Celtics acquire their players?Paul Pierce - DraftRajon Rondo - DraftKevin Garnett - Trade (Jefferson + other picks and pieces)Ray Allen - Trade (lottery pick +)That is very different than the Heat who got Lebron and Bosh as FAs. (Technically, they did sign and trades but anyone putting them in the same trade buckets as those for KG and Allen is not being honest.)Miami is walking one of the easiest paths I have seen in recent years and since I hate that team (not the Heat per se but this Heat team) and what they represent, it is annoying to see how little resistance they are going to get until the finals.

[macdaddy]

I will be rooting for Boston without any hesitation in the series I dub the "do I have to root for one of these teams, well at least the Celtics have Rondo and aren't comprised of a bunch of stars that abandoned their teams and started celebrating their championships before they played a single game together."It is a long title, but appropo.

That's hilarious! Do i have to go back and mark my post where i said the Heat will be thrilled if the Celtics beat the Hawks? Not saying the Heat wouldn't beat the Hawks but i guarantee they'd rather play the beat up old guys they can beat to the hoop than the schizo younger guys who can run the floor. I think we match up much better with the Heat than the C's.

[BrazilianHawk]

I agree with macdaddy. The Hawks should be a much tougher opponent than the Celtics. Then again, I'm not sure I would like to watch rigged games against lebron and company. We would surely get jobbed again.

There's no player I hate more than Lebron. There's no club I hate more than the Celtics.

GO SPURS.

[Diesel]

I believe the Celtics still have a strong shot.

[MaceCase]

So we should downplay the fact that KG had the power to determine where he got traded to thanks to the threat of his opt out? The fact he wanted no parts of Boston until Ray was acquired in a separate deal and only then would he agree to an extend and trade?We can act like they were put together thanks to some run of the mill trades but KG in particular used his impending free agency as incentive to pick and choose how cushy the situation he landed in was rather than being available to the top bidder. I personally am not crowning neither him nor Carmelo as though they are some sort of saints over guys who were actual free agents. It stinks all around and all the same.

[Gray Mule]

I don't like the Celtics at all. I don't like the Heat any better than I like Boston.

The only thing that either team has going fot them, for me, is the fact that my

favorite non Hawk player in the NBA has signed with the hated Miami Heat.

Old time posters know. Battier, I really like. Hate it because he is where he is.

Would hate for the west to win it all but I would hate even worse for either of

these two to be the NBA champions.

[AHF]

So we should downplay the fact that KG had the power to determine where he got traded to thanks to the threat of his opt out? The fact he wanted no parts of Boston until Ray was acquired in a separate deal and only then would he agree to an extend and trade?We can act like they were put together thanks to some run of the mill trades but KG in particular used his impending free agency as incentive to pick and choose how cushy the situation he landed in was rather than being available to the top bidder. I personally am not crowning neither him nor Carmelo as though they are some sort of saints over guys who were actual free agents. It stinks all around and all the same.

The T-Wolves got stud young big man Al Jefferson, a lottery draft pick, another first round draft pick, an expiring contract, a player who was a recent lottery pick, a useful veteran who posted numerous double-doubles and another youngster with magical "upside." Compare that to Toronto or Cleveland's assets.KG had leverage but Minnesota commanded options to give them a high value return. It is totally not comparable to the Heatles from a team building perspective. I don't care as much about the individuals. I can like or dislike them individually. Superstars planning to leave their current teams while still under contract and then reaping every bit of press out of the process both offends my sensibility and the integrity of the league. A free agent letting his team know he won't resign is part of every sport. Edited May 30, 2012 by AHF

[NJHAWK]

I couldnt stand Lebron even before he left Clev. The self or espn appointed King, lol. I have hoped he will never win a title since the night our game started late so he could blow out the candles on his birthday cake at Phillips arena for pete sake. I despise Boston but not as much as the not 1, not 2, not 3 yadayadayadas.

[MaceCase]

The T-Wolves got stud young big man Al Jefferson, a lottery draft pick, another first round draft pick, an expiring contract, a player who was a recent lottery pick, a useful veteran who posted numerous double-doubles and another youngster with magical "upside." Compare that to Toronto or Cleveland's assets.

I already can tell an argument is a tad disingenuous when I read Al Jefferson....and then former lotto pick this lotto pick that. Please, AHF. It was Al Jefferson who is no longer on the team, traded for capspace and just now ended his Jamal/Reef streak of none playoff appearances, Ryan Gomes a career journeyman, Gerald Green a draft bust that was out of the league until a mini comeback, Sebastian Telfair another draft bust, the battered and broken husk of Theo Ratliff as salary filler, the 28th pick in the draft and their own pick back. It was the extreme case of quantity over quality as Danny Ainge was able to dump his every GM mistake onto his good buddy who probably still owed him on a squelched bet. Looking back through the rumors at the time (the original link goes to RealGM's front page and I don't have the time to sift the archives) The Lakers had offers of Bynum, Odom and a late 1st on the table and a 3 way deal discussing these Atlanta Hawks included the Wolves taking our 3rd and 11th picks plus Zaza with us getting Amar'e and Phoenix getting KG. Even without the gift of hindsight those were better offers, they just lacked the overwhelming mass of detritus Ainge gave up. Either way, none of those assets remain on the TWolves roster effectively making it the same return as Cleveland and Toronto.

KG had leverage but Minnesota commanded options to give them a high value return. It is totally not comparable to the Heatles from a team building perspective. I don't care as much about the individuals. I can like or dislike them individually. Superstars planning to leave their current teams while still under contract and then reaping every bit of press out of the process both offends my sensibility and the integrity of the league. A free agent letting his team know he won't resign is part of every sport.

Well I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. You find a player playing out his contract and moving on disagreeable, I find a player under contract becoming a locker room cancer by publicly voicing their displeasure with their team's current success or lack of then being rumored of milking injuries and quitting effectively tanking their current teams chance of receiving full value in a trade especially when they are holding said franchise hostage with threats over their contract status. I'll take a hundred "Decisions" over the continuous just as team killing Dwight and Melodramas which garner just as much media attention. Edited May 30, 2012 by MaceCase

[dlpin]

So we should downplay the fact that KG had the power to determine where he got traded to thanks to the threat of his opt out? The fact he wanted no parts of Boston until Ray was acquired in a separate deal and only then would he agree to an extend and trade?We can act like they were put together thanks to some run of the mill trades but KG in particular used his impending free agency as incentive to pick and choose how cushy the situation he landed in was rather than being available to the top bidder. I personally am not crowning neither him nor Carmelo as though they are some sort of saints over guys who were actual free agents. It stinks all around and all the same.

What are you talking about? KG had no opt out clause in his contract. And he had 2 years left on his deal. And he didn't even originally want to be traded. He only asked to be traded after it became public that the wolves were shopping him around. And he didn't force a trade because the wolves were bad: the wolves wanted to trade him because it made no sense to them to keep paying an aging superstar 20+ million a year to miss the playoffs.And then the celtics tried to acquire him 2 times before the actual trade. The first attempted deal had the celtics giving up not only all that they eventually did, but also Rondo instead of Sebastian Telfair and the number 5 pick in that year's draft. Minnesota said no because other teams were still the frontrunners to land him. Then the second time around, KG said he wouldn't resign with the celtics as they were then (one of the 3 worst teams in the NBA). It was only when Phoenix refused to include Amare in a deal, when the Lakers wanted Minnesota to take on Lamar Odom's bad contract, and when Chicago refused to break up the "baby bulls" that the celtics became the front runners. And even then KG wouldn't go. So the celtics made a deal that everyone at the time thought was a bad deal: Wallu Szerbiak's expiring deal, Delonte West, and the number 5 pick in the draft for Ray Allen, who was a shooting guard in his 30s just coming off surgery in both ankles and was still owed 60 million dollars. Don't need to believe me, just go back and read what all the experts thought of the trade.Only then the celtics were able to land KG. And it took a lottery pick (which Minnesota messes up by picking Johnny Flynn), Al Jefferson (who put up 23 points, 11 rounds and 1.5 blocks in his first year in Minnesota and everyone agreed should have been an all star that year), and the largest expiring deal at the nba at the time. It was a better package than any other superstar deal every got in the league.And still, no one thought the celtics would win the title. Just read the previews back then.Here's that season's GM predictions:http://www.nba.com/preview2007/gmsurvey_predictions.htmlHere's ESPN:http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview2007/news/story?page=Experts-NBAChampsYou are entitled to your opinion, but the facts are the facts. KG was far from enthusiastic about joining the celtics.

[MaceCase]

From what I remember the experts felt that Ray and Pierce weren't enough to get it done by their selves but getting Ray was the catalyst to having KG go from not wanting to go to Boston to all of a sudden wanting to go to Boston. You have it right there, actually agreeing with what I said. He goes from not wanting to go to Boston threatening he'll bolt to them getting a "30 year old overpaid SG with bad ankles"......and was a multiple time All Star and just came from dropping 26 points (what's with these disingenuous statements? Trying to sell Ray short now?) and now he all of a sudden agrees to an extend and trade.

The term "extend and trade" is even famously framed off of Garnett's situation.

Should I also be under some impression that they were coined "The Big Three" with commercials of them deciding on nicknames like the 3 amigos in ESPN spots after they won a title??? But I thought the Ray trade was terrible? Big 2 1/2?

And people didn't give the Celts a chance at the title? But the GMs had them tied for winning the East though in the evidence you provided. Not exactly a small accomplishment in itself.

I'm not enjoying this revisionist history that the Celtics are now and forever been plucky underdogs but then again, the Anti-Lebron media machine is mighty powerful.

Edited May 31, 2012 by MaceCase

[dlpin]

Who said anything about being plucky under-dogs? I am saying that what happened with the celtics is pretty much your run of the mill superstar trade. Not some major stuff where stars decide to collude to ring chase. Also, KG had 2 years left on his deal when he signed the extension with the celtics. Him agreeing to extend it was certainly nice, but it wasn't in any way a deterrent to any trades. Finally, the reason Ray was important was because the celtics were a bottom of the barrel team. Not a playoff team.

[dlpin]

I recall KG having an early termination option for the 08-09 season and so does Sham:http://www.shamsport...play.jsp?id=231Its a little green colored to say KG had 2 seasons left on his deal. KG also got his extension right after, as Mace correctly points out the "extend and trade" really came from the KG deal and then the Melo:http://www.eskimo.co...ender/contractsYeah, I agree with Mace here. Really the Heat and Celtics did about the same thing. Its not unprecedented, but when was the last time this stuff happened? The Malone Lakers? The Barkley Rockets? The...drawing a really long blank here.

He had one full season at the very, very least. And it is not like he requested a trade to boston. He accepted one after the celtics acquired Ray Allen, just like he would have accepted to phoenix, lakers, bulls... And trades of past-his-prime former MVPs for cap space, prospects and picks are as old as the nba itself. Shaq to the heat, if you want to know the last time before KG. And it is in no way the same thing as two 25 year old all stars (one of them an MVP candidate) deciding to sign for less with a playoff team with a in his prime former champion in it. I mean, you may not like it, but I don't see how anyone can say it is the same thing. Under contract 30+ year olds being trade to one of several teams they find acceptable, with those teams getting cap space, prospects and top 5 lottery picks in return is objectively different from 2 twenty five year olds taking less money to play with a 3rd all star.And that is not to mention, again, that KG did NOT want to be traded originally. At all. And only decided on it after the Wolves started shopping him around and the Wolves owner started dogging him in the press:http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/story/2012-03-30/kevin-love-minnesota-timberwolves/53903356/1"The deeply loyal Garnett didn't want to leave when the Timberwolves traded him. But when the deal was made, things turned sour.Timberwolves executives were unhappy with Garnett's demeanor behind the scenes and Garnett seethed over a perceived lack of loyalty from the organization, particularly when owner Glen Taylor alleged that KG "tanked it" at the end of the 2006-07 season by sitting on the bench with injuries."

[AHF]

I can't believe that anyone in their right mind would claim that the leverage Minnesota had and the value received when trading KG was comparable to the leverage and value when Lebron and Bosh came to Miami.

This is just intellectually disingenuous.

Getting a 23 year old big man averaging 21 points and 11 rebounds with a 23 PER (you know, better than Al Horford, Josh Smith or Joe Johnson have ever done in their entire careers), a lottery pick, a first rounder, two young players, and a huge expiring contract are not good assets for a team rebuilding? Really? I could get behind an argument that Minnesota didn't maximize the trade but trying to argue that it is for all intensive purposes the same value that Toronto or Miami got is just impossible for me to rationalize.

I also see a big difference in these two scenarios, I think you can spot the difference:

* Player plays out the season under contract without intent of leaving the team. After the season, the team's management decides to trade him and shops him around to multiple franchises to try to get back good value. The player then works to influence his next team based on what he thinks is in his own self-interest. He uses as leverage his consent or non-consent to an extension of his current contract. Team executes a trade including 3 substantial assets (23 year old 20/10 big man; lottery pick; large expiring contract) and player extends his contract with new team.

* While under contract, a player colludes with other players on other teams to agree to join a different team in the offseason. Player's current team is told that player will be inclined to resign if they make moves he likes and so take on substantial contracts in an effort to placate the player. Some observers believe player quits during the playoffs in the team's losing series. After the season, the player whips up a media storm and holds repeated press conferences pretending to be making something other than a pre-determined decision which prevents player's current team from participating in free agency under the false belief that they are in the running to resign the player. Player announces decision on national TV creating massive backlash from his former team's ownership and fans and leverages the threat of leaving former team with nothing to get a sign and trade that provides better financial terms to player and low value assets to former team.

The big differences to me are:

(a) Collusion during the season.

(b) Jerking the old team and fans around to satisfy ego.

© Old team has no opportunity to trade for value.

All 3 in combination are offensive to me in a way that the Carmelo situation wasn't (no collusion in season and team got value); Garnett wasn't (no collusion, no jerking team around, value for trade); etc.

Now let me answer another rhetorical question. Did I like the Garnett move? No. I thought McHale didn't extract sufficient value for Garnett and that Boston got a rare opportunity to pull off a trade for an MVP-level player and to pick up another stud in Ray Allen (which I thought was a much more balanced deal) in the same offseason. The Garnett trade didn't offend me like the Gasol trade did, though, because everyone believed Jefferson was a young stud and the financial benefits of the expiring deal in conjunction with Jefferson and the T-Wolves lottery pick were very real and meaningful assets.

[NJHAWK]

Your right about Boston/Garnett and the trades made. Its a huge difference with Boston who traded young players and picks for 2 established all star players. What Miami or the little 3 did was planned calculated arrogance that screwed their franchises.Hey maybe it wont be so easy after all. I cant believe nba refs actually fouled Lebron out of a game. I was worried when he fouled out though because usually he is a thorn in his own teams side in the clutch. Boston isnt Indiana, the Pacers couldnt jump on the Heat as they were imploding. Boston has the players to push the Heat to collapse and point fingers at each other. I didnt start watching till mid 4th quarter so I didnt understand what that question the espn reporter asked Rondo about crying at half time. It looked like he was mad at her and she apologized but I have no idea.

Edited June 4, 2012 by NJHAWK

[NJHAWK]

Al Jefferson was an up and coming all star center. He just had too many tough injuries in his career but when he was traded to Minny he had a ton of trade value. Getting him and a lotto pick at the time was exceelent value for a player who was going to leave Minny. Garnett made it clear early enough that he wanted out so Minny could get value for him. Lebron knew he was going to leave but wanted his arrogant little side show all summer loving the attention of people clinging to hopes he would pick their team. He is and always was garbage. He is not a champion or a King and if it comes down to his play in the clutch vs a great team, he will never be one.