Why does Josh stand in the middle of the free throw circle?

[Guest]

If Josh Smith is moving around the free throw line to try to improve his free throw percentage, then it is very clear that he has never put forth the effort of trying to improve his free throw percentage. The way to improve shooting free throws is to do it the exact same way, every time, for many many many different times. There are no variables in shooting a FT. The basket is still the same height. The line is still the same distance away. There are no defenders.

If Josh Smith is just now trying to master his FT technique, then it's telling about how much work he has put into it.

Let's clear this up. I'm a Josh Smith fan. I'm one of the few on this board that would love for him to retire a Hawk. I'm not for a max contract, not at this point, but give him what he's worth and get a coach in here that can get through to him or bench his ass until he understands it.

I've played organized basketball. I know how some things are accomplished. As far as FT's go, you do it the same way every time for as many times as it takes for it to become routine.

Although it's something he should have worked on years ago, I can appreciate him wanting to do better. But the right way is shooting from the line.

Josh started off the season struggling from the freethrow line this year (he was decent last year), nothing wrong with him and his coaches trying to figure out if doing something different may work. And if that's the case he has to stick with it the same way every time for as many times as it takes for it to become routine.

Freethrow shooting is more mental than anything - he has to find a comfort zone.

Show me a hard and fast rule about the right spot to shoot a freethrow from, that's like saying don't shoot a freethrow underhanded.

[thecampster]

The basket is a circle. And Josh does not use the back of the basket. I fail to see how you can get a different angle by moving to the right or left of a circle.

for some players, the backboard creates a 2d effect with the basket..moving left or right returns it to 3d

[Buzzard]

for some players, the backboard creates a 2d effect with the basket..moving left or right returns it to 3d

I don't know about all that. When I played games and horse the 5 to 12ft bank shot was still in play. I never shot free throws like that but the backboard was my friend for getting off shots from either the left or right block. I was always more comfortable at that range and angle with a bank than trying to swish one.

I agree with Hawksfanatic on free throws. Put your eyes and mind on kissing the inside back of the rim or net and practice, practice, practice.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Buzzard

[thecampster]

You two really need to work on reading comprehension. I said "for some people". Its a depth perception thing and mental. Look someone asked why and this is an extremely common reason. People move back to change the angle.

Honestly this board frustrates the hell out of me. You guys have a pathelogical bent toward arguing stuff that doesn't even matter.

All he is doing is changing his angle because muscle memory for missing has set in.

[thecampster]

Was geometry outlawed where you grew up? Unless you use the backboard (which I have yet to see someone consistently do that for free throws), then it does not matter where you shoot from if you are concerned about angles.

You claim there are not many straight away three-point shots, but this is just wrong. Kirk Goldsberry had an article that documents where all the NBA shots were from (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/59302/courtvision-the-year-in-scoring):

I certainly see a dense line that is for straight away looks. You may also notice the corner arcs with a lot of shots, but that is not an angle effect but a defender effect. You get less contested shots from those areas, so with more open looks you get more open shots.

When looking at this, do you not see how dark things get at 90 and 45 degree angles? There is a reason for this. Depth perception.

[Admin]

The basket is a circle. And Josh does not use the back of the basket. I fail to see how you can get a different angle by moving to the right or left of a circle.

If you fail to see it then get a step ladder and go to the gym and try it out with the top of your head 6'9" off the ground (in shoes of course!) and see if the basket looks different from right or left of the basket. As a long range shooter I've always preferred being at the corners of the top of the arc on 3's and you can see most 3pt shooters do as well in the NBA as straight on 3's are taken less often. However I've always shot FTs on the line dead center... But I'm not Josh's height so who knows. My guess is that moving back and right has more to do with him being left handed and having a catapult type of delivery so he's looking to get as much arc as possible, or should be, as Smitty mentioned in the game the other night. Josh far too often shoots them flat instead of getting that nice arc and it drastically reduces the size of the basket like that. Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[Admin]

If Josh Smith is moving around the free throw line to try to improve his free throw percentage, then it is very clear that he has never put forth the effort of trying to improve his free throw percentage. The way to improve shooting free throws is to do it the exact same way, every time, for many many many different times. There are no variables in shooting a FT. The basket is still the same height. The line is still the same distance away. There are no defenders. If Josh Smith is just now trying to master his FT technique, then it's telling about how much work he has put into it. Let's clear this up. I'm a Josh Smith fan. I'm one of the few on this board that would love for him to retire a Hawk. I'm not for a max contract, not at this point, but give him what he's worth and get a coach in here that can get through to him or bench his ass until he understands it. I've played organized basketball. I know how some things are accomplished. As far as FT's go, you do it the same way every time for as many times as it takes for it to become routine. Although it's something he should have worked on years ago, I can appreciate him wanting to do better. But the right way is shooting from the line.

So then according to you it's clear that Shaq, D12, other big men who've struggled have never put the effort in to improve. Because I've seen dozens if big men who've struggled shooting FTs try different things as they've been instructed by shooting coaches to try and improve. And I'm sorry but until you're 6'9"+ with huge hands you really have no idea what you're talking about when trying to criticize these guys. Josh has probably had 5 different shooting coaches and maybe more in the NBA and I'd guarantee you that he's not just experimenting up there on his own, he's doing it because he was told to try it this way. Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[AHF]

So then according to you it's clear that Shaq, D12, other big men who've struggled have never put the effort in to improve. Because I've seen dozens if big men who've struggled shooting FTs try different things as they've been instructed by shooting coaches to try and improve. And I'm sorry but until you're 6'9"+ with huge hands you really have no idea what you're talking about when trying to criticize these guys. Josh has probably had 5 different shooting coaches and maybe more in the NBA and I'd guarantee you that he's not just experimenting up there on his own, he's doing it because he was told to try it this way.Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

He should try the approach used by 2004-2009 Josh Smith. Over Smith's first 4 seasons, he collectively shot > 70%. Whatever the issue is, I don't think it is height or hand size. My guess is that it is a mental hurdle.

[Admin]

For someone who complained about comprehension on this board, you really failed on that part. I told you why, it is a defensive reason not an angle reason. Here is another chart to further illustrate people shoot more straight-on than they do by "taking a step to the right or to the left": (remember, you told us that this is why 3 point shooters prefer a slight angle than straight on, if this was the case then we shouldn't see many straight-on shots and should see a higher disproportion of shots a step to the left or right from straight-on): And also, players shoot from the corner 3s (I am assuming this is what you meant by 90 degrees) because it is closer to the hoop. When you are closer, you increase your chances of making a basket. And if anything, shooting at the corner would be a detriment to your depth perception argument because there is no backboard to focus on when you are shooting from that area. Angles have nothing to do with this. And so, your argument really boils down to muscle memory. If this is a muscle memory problem, then there is no difference between taking a step back, left, right, or anything in between. So I fail to see how a "smarter suggestion" of moving to the left or right will help out.

Where are you getting that its because of a defensive thing? As I mentioned earlier I've always preferred shooting from the corners of the arc and lots of shooters are that way. Perhaps because of repetition from running to those spots on the break but those are more comfortable shots than the straight away top of the arc 3 for what I'd venture to define as most people. I don't buy that it's because of defense as offenses are designed to get the shots that you want and if that were shots from the top of the arc then that's what offenses would get. Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[Admin]

He should try the approach used by 2004-2009 Josh Smith. Over Smith's first 4 seasons, he collectively shot > 70%. Whatever the issue is, I don't think it is height or hand size. My guess is that it is a mental hurdle.

I don't disagree with that, my contention is with that statement that he hasn't worked at it. The height and size of hands thing is a real issue with those other big men and has been documented how much they worked on it. Back then he had Mark Price coaching him on FTs and he's obviously a better coach than Nick is. For Josh its all about his trajectory that he gets with that catapult shot and more often that not his misses are flat. I don't attribute that to not trying or not putting in the reps, like you said it's probably a mental thing.Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[AHF]

Or he doesn't practice his free throws very often.

Even a lack of practice doesn't account for 51% FT shooting to me, though. I bet a decent FT shooter (say someone who shoot at a 75% clip in the NBA) could go a year without serious practice and still beat that by a serious margin.

If he isn't practicing that makes things worse, but I don't think it accounts for the extreme fall-off in his performance in and of itself.

Edited May 3, 2013 by AHF

[Guest]

ALL MENTAL!!!! Just ask Nick Anderson.

[HawkItus]

Didn't he lose weight after the 2009 season? Maybe it is the weight differential or physiology. You know how golfers lose their swing with weight gain or loss? Maybe Josh is experiencing this.

[Guest]

Josh is not the only one struggling from the free throw line - EVERYONE IS (except Teague). It has been a team wide problem all season. Something is amiss.

[MaceCase]

Arghhhhh beat me to it!

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Hitting FT's is mostly a mental thing... Ivan (and Zaza too) is tough as nails and hits his FT's. Josh also seems to over-think his FT's (who just scares down a FTA?) while Ivan just steps up and shoots that line-drive FT of his. Then again, the ball probably knows not to disappoint Ivan.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited May 3, 2013 by PSSSHHHRRR87

[Admin]

You have got to be kidding me, has no one on this board ever taken geometry? You do realize what a circle is, right? If we were talking about ovals or squares then maybe you have a point that the angle changes. As far as straight-away threes versus others, you are wrong about that. The straight away three is the most common of all three pointers on the floor. If you tell me it is those top-corners or short-corner then you aren't well adjusted to looking at spatial data. Those corners have more area and so they have more wide-open shots from there (hence defensive reasons and not angular reasons). You also are not giving a fair comparison when you claim that a 10x2 foot area has more shots than a 1x1 foot area. Well yeah of course if you include more area you get more shots, but once you get a fair comparison of frequency you recognize it is not close. Part of what Kirk cannot show in his plots are shot frequencies at an unadjusted levels. If Kirk does not top-code the frequencies (i.e. set "high" equal to anything above 2 shots per game so that a spot with 4 shots a game and one with 2 shots a game look identical), then the plot loses its luster and does not look aesthetically pleasing. But if Kirk showed frequencies that are not top-coded then you would see an even bigger discrepancy it frequency at the top of the key. All of this to say, nope you and camp are wrong about angles. Pythagoras would be ashamed (wasn't he in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure? or was it their Bogus Journey?).

I didn't say a damned thing about the circle being different when shooting from angles so you need to improve your reading comprehension. I said 2 things. The first is that people who play basketball and shoot 3s tend to feel more comfortable shooting from the corners of the arc up top. I'm not explaining the reason but its a more comfortable shot for most shooters vs the straight away 3 and that's regardless of defense. Even in an empty gym that shot is more comfortable so the defense argument holds no water.The other thing I said was about FTs and the trajectory of the shot making the basket larger and if you can't understand that then I'd suggest you go back to basic geometry! Common sense shows that if he shoots flat that the basket will have a harder time going in than it will if he arcs it and the ball is coming in from above the cylinder at a greater angle. I believe he's trying to stand farther back due to his shot mechanics making it easier for him to get arc on the shot from farther back. I also believe that because his FT motion is so unpredictable that he stands to the right to give him the best shot at the ball going straight towards the basket with him being a left hander. Now I know you're going to come back with a pissy argument filled with insults about this or that and include fancy charts and stats so I'm gonna save you the time and tell you I'm not going to argue about something I care do little about so there's no sense in you wasting anymore of your time. But I know you can't refrain from that so by all means go ahead...Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[Admin]

Hitting FT's is mostly a mental thing... Ivan (and Zaza too) is tough as nails and hits his FT's. Josh also seems to over-think his FT's (who just scares down a FTA?) while Ivan just steps up and shoots that line-drive FT of his. Then again, the ball probably knows not to disappoint Ivan.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If anyone "scares" down a FT attempt it's Ivan! Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk 2

[AHF]

Why can't it? Because you said so?

At least saying he doesn't practice enough is a reason where as mental hurdle is not a reason. Saying mental hurdle just goes back to being something that is unexplainable. So we explain things with the unexplainable. Great. Thanks. Really making progress here.

Just because you can't explain it doesn't mean it isn't real.

I suppose Chuck Knobloch stopped practing throwing the ball.

Dale Murphy didn't practice throwing the ball to the pitcher enough.

Nick Anderson didn't practice free throws enough.

* * * *

Josh's issue may be a lack of practice but an athlete's confidence and mental state are clearly performance factors above and beyond mere practice time.

[benhillboy]

The fact is poor free throw shooting for a professional is unacceptable. There aren't any excuses whatsoever for guards not to shoot 75-85, forwards 65-80, and centers 60-75. Body fluidity and mechanics on jumpers and free throws is a fundamental skill/ talent. Body type, hands size, depth perception, and height are all cop-outs IMO. Yao and a majority of the centers from last generation were excellent foul shooters and midrange shooter for that matter, which is why you'd never hear me call Dwight or Shaq "Greats". FOH. When free throws are so important yet so easy if not in crunch time, to shoot below 60%, especially for someone who wants to be a stretch 4 so bad, means Josh is just dumb, plain and simple. He doesn't try hard at all because he'd shoot well if he did. Better yet, if he indeed is working hard at it, just stop. He'd probably hit more based off dumb luck. It has gotten to the point where fouling him hard and preventing a layup is one of the better plays in the NBA today: you can rotate to him late around the basket, but foul him hard and you won't get hurt. I'd glady use up 5 hard fouls on him and reduce 10 points down to about 2.And I hate this hip-hop, "I wanna look cool at everything I do" generation that laughs at the notion of underhanded free throws. Dumbasses could improve scoring average for themselves and their team, but they wanna be cool instead. Rick Barry is ashamed of you all, and I feel him 100%. Tim Duncan and LeBron are by far the smartest players I've seen struggle with free throws. LeBron not so much, but I would've expected Timmy to blaze the under-handed trail by now.

Edited May 3, 2013 by benhillboy