Cap space article.

[MaceCase]

Paul Pierce is the better than Horford? Wade a second fiddle too?

Is this the "I don't really have a legitimate response to your post" post? Because I'm not seeing anything of relevance here other than getting the last word in.

[Peoriabird]

Is this the "I don't really have a legitimate response to your post" post? Because I'm not seeing anything of relevance here other than getting the last word in.

The point is that the team that you mentioned did not win until they brought in free agents

[MaceCase]

The point is that the team that you mentioned did not win until they brought in free agents

I never mentioned a single "team" so again you are talking out of your ass. Wade was a Finals MVP well before Lebron got there and Pierce was a top 10 player in the league before Garnett and Allen were traded for in addition to being Finals' MVP after they arrived . If the Hawks can sign a player actually better than Horf then AHF and I are all in but unfortunately Jefferson or Mayo aren't.

[Peoriabird]

I never mentioned a single "team" so again you are talking out of your ass. Wade was a Finals MVP well before Lebron got there and Pierce was a top 10 player in the league before Garnett and Allen were traded for in addition to being Finals' MVP after they arrived . If the Hawks can sign a player actually better than Horf then AHF and I are all in but unfortunately Jefferson or Mayo aren't.

I think there was a big free agent signing that year in Miami and he drove Diesel into town and once he couldn't play anymore, Miami became the Hawks. Peice may have been a top ten player but Boston were the Hawks in his 1st 3 years in the league and then became a lottery team until they signed Garnett and Allen. And to be acurate with your Kope example...The Lakers did not tank before aguiring Kobe...He was aquired in a draft day trade because Kobe would not play for Charlotte and were forced to take broken down Divac.

[MaceCase]

I think there was a big free agent signing that year in Miami and he drove Diesel into town and once he couldn't play anymore, Miami became the Hawks. Peice may have been a top ten player but Boston were the Hawks in his 1st 3 years in the league and then became a lottery team until they signed Garnett and Allen. And to be acurate with your Kope example...The Lakers did not tank before aguiring Kobe...He was aquired in a draft day trade because Kobe would not play for Charlotte and were forced to take broken down Divac.

Oh, it's the last word tactic again. Start picking individual instances as if it disproves the overwhelming evidence presented against you.

FYI, Shaq, Garnett and Allen were traded for not signed in free agency.

How Kobe was acquired in the draft does not disprove the fact that but for one team, no team has won a ring without a drafted player being at minimum 2nd best.

Trading Horf for a pick isn't out of the realm of possibility either to keep in line with your Kobe "retort" but alas, that would still be acquiring a drafted player to be a foundational piece. I'm still wondering how exactly that clarification proves your drafted players leaving their original teams theory but again alas, when one talks out the ass there's no need for consistency in an argument.

You have yet to come up with a single example where this was not true except the Heat but to be "acurate" both Lebron and Bosh were sign and traded for as well but Wade still remained their 2nd best player despite "being the Hawks" as if that is relevant to the value of a player but go ahead though, make that last "point". Get that last word in to defend your torn apart argument.

Edited May 17, 2013 by MaceCase

[Buzzard]

I think there was a big free agent signing that year in Miami and he drove Diesel into town and once he couldn't play anymore, Miami became the Hawks. Peice may have been a top ten player but Boston were the Hawks in his 1st 3 years in the league and then became a lottery team until they signed Garnett and Allen. And to be acurate with your Kope example...The Lakers did not tank before aguiring Kobe...He was aquired in a draft day trade because Kobe would not play for Charlotte and were forced to take broken down Divac.

Most of your points are valid. Pierce, Wade, Kobe were on some mediocre teams. But no one forced the Kobe trade. That was just a bad move by the Bobcats.

The flip side of this debate I agree with to some degree in that most all championship teams have a championship type go to player and the great teams have two or more.

I do think a lot of people here are overreacting to Ferry year two if it involves signing players to good contracts if it involves anyone not named CP3 and D12.

Someone here quoted Ferry as saying you build winning teams through the draft, FA, and trades. If we don't have players other teams covet, pretty damn tough to work out trades. If we don't sign D12 and/or CP3, there has to be a plan B.

Players like Jefferson, Evans, Pek, Horford etc...may not get us next seasons #1 pick but I bet they could get us a damn good one if Ferry decided to go for it. That is just a theory and one type of example; but no matter what happens this off season, I don't think Danny is done making moves after just two seasons if he is not satisfied that he has put together a contender.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Buzzard

[Peoriabird]

Oh, it's the last word tactic again. Start picking individual instances as if it disproves the overwhelming evidence presented against you.

FYI, Shaq, Garnett and Allen were traded for not signed in free agency.

How Kobe was acquired in the draft does not disprove the fact that but for one team, no team has won a ring without a drafted player being at minimum 2nd best.

Trading Horf for a pick isn't out of the realm of possibility either to keep in line with your Kobe "retort" but alas, that would still be acquiring a drafted player to be a foundational piece. I'm still wondering how exactly that clarification proves your drafted players leaving their original teams theory but again alas, when one talks out the ass there's no need for consistency in an argument.

You have yet to come up with a single example where this was not true except the Heat but to be "acurate" both Lebron and Bosh were sign and traded for as well but Wade still remained their 2nd best player despite "being the Hawks" as if that is relevant to the value of a player but go ahead though, make that last "point". Get that last word in to defend your torn apart argument.

It is safe to assume that you don't think that Horford could be the 2nd best player on a championship team.

[Guest]

Per Lang Green of Hoopsworld:

Ferry has told me numerous times he is not going to spend just to spend. He valued Joe Johnson and moving him was a tough decision, so they plan on using the cap not just for free agency but for potential trades as well
Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-with-lang-greene-51513#5UyjI1RyKHblwQ5X.99

[MaceCase]

It is safe to assume that you don't think that Horford could be the 2nd best player on a championship team.

It's safe to assume that Al Jefferson will not be the best player on a championship team.

[NBASupes]

Perhaps not sure fire stud prospects and yes it will probably be a deal where a guy like George emerges, but I don't think this class is as weak as some have projected.Shabazz is a sophomore by age but only had 1 year of college so he's far from a developed prospect. But he could end up being a dud in the NBA.

I said this about Shabazz, he is Ron Mercer before injuries. A good SG but nothing special.

[Guest]

I said this about Shabazz, he is Ron Mercer before injuries. A good SG but nothing special.

Word is his stock is dropping fast at the Combine, may fall out of the lottery - GMs say he has an all about me attitude, bad mechanics and is one dimensional on offense.

[NBASupes]

It's safe to assume that Al Jefferson will not be the best player on a championship team.

They really need to stop this Al Jefferson talk. It's like saying we are a Monta Ellis from winning.

If we are an al jefferson or monta ellis away from winning title. We must have a Dwight Howard around some talent and need another low post scorer or we have Dwight and need a very good perimeter scorer who is consistent like Ellis. If you don't have Dwight, you can't win nothing in this league with Jefferson and Ellis. You can't even get to the playoffs consistent with those two starring.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Leadership

[AHF]

Players like Jefferson, Evans, Pek, Horford etc...may not get us next seasons #1 pick but I bet they could get us a damn good one if Ferry decided to go for it. That is just a theory and one type of example; but no matter what happens this off season, I don't think Danny is done making moves after just two seasons if he is not satisfied that he has put together a contender.

I don't understand this comment. Are you saying that if we sign Jefferson, Evans or Pek for more than anyone is willing to spend on them that some lottery team will give us a stud draft pick in exchange for them?

I guess you must have been devastated by the Joe Johnson trade and us not getting some high lottery pick. No one is giving a high lottery pick for Tyreke Evans at $10M/season or Al Jefferson for $14M/season. Signing those players closes off your shot at lottery picks either through taking on undesirable salaries or by being too mediocre to get a top pick.

Al Horford could get you a lottery pick. If Pek blows up, he has the potential to get you a pick at $13M/season or so but also the potential to be worth notably less than that and be a negative asset.

If you are willing to do deal Horford for a lottery pick, though, why would a mediocre season leading to dealing Horford for one top lottery picks ever be preferable to a tanking season leading to two top lottery picks?

[AHF]

1. 1st of all no team starts off a season thinking lets tank. Most Teams make moves in the offseason with the anticipation of getting better.

Plenty of teams have done this. Who thinks Orlando made moves last offseason designed to optimize their win total? They set themselves up to acquire future assets and tank for a high pick.

The season before Lebron James was draft eligible, the Cavs made the following moves:

Got rid of:

Andre Miller #1 points, #1 assists, #1 steals, #3 rebounds

Wesley Person #2 points, #1 TS%, #2 steals, #3 assists

Lemond Murray #2 points, #4 rebounds, #4 steals, #4 assists

In their place they started a guaranteed to suck lineup of chuckmeisters at the 1-3 with Ricky Davis, Milt Palacio and Dejuan Wagner being featured. To no one's surprise, this took their FG% from .448 to .422 and to the top of the lottery.

They tanked and their tank job started in the offseason.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

They really need to stop this Al Jefferson talk. It's like saying we are a Monta Ellis from winning.

If we are an al jefferson or monta ellis away from winning title. We must have a Dwight Howard around some talent and need another low post scorer or we have Dwight and need a very good perimeter scorer who is consistent like Ellis. If you don't have Dwight, you can't win nothing in this league with Jefferson and Ellis. You can't even get to the playoffs consistent with those two starring.

Who said anything about Al Jefferson being the missing piece to win a title? And who said pay 12 million for Tyreke Evans? That's insanity.

Acquiring Jefferson is adding an asset to the Hawks while giving this team a different look. But some of you act like we'd be adding Channing Frye at 11 - 13 million a year or something.

Despite being drafted 15th in 2004, Jefferson has arguably been the 3rd best player behind Dwight Howard and Andre Iguodala. Some of you may argue that Josh Smith, Luou Deng, and even Kevin Martin have been better than him, and that's fine. You'd be wrong though.

Here is a guy who we KNOW will perform at a top 5 lottery pick level, and is one of the best big men in the league . . . but people want to go to Vegas, tank it all, and roll the dice to get a superstar. And keep rolling ( and sucking ) every year, until it happens.

Or instead, they want to add Chris Kaman and Corey Magettee type players at 8 - 10 million for one year, so they can fall off the books and we can have cap space to do it all over again the next year. Meanwhile, Horford is getting pissed that we're not adding quality players to the roster, and requests a trade in the summer of 2014.

Then what?

Oh yeah

** spin and clapping **

"Come on #1 pick. Big money. Big money."

[yungsta]

AL jefferson isnt 1 of the best big men in the league wtf. He is a 1 dimensional low post scorer who doesnt impact the game when he isnt getting 20+ touches a game.

doesnt play defense, doesnt work the pick n roll, doesnt move the ball or is much of a passer, doesnt run the floor.

He is just a straight ISO Big man. He brings scoring to the 4/5 position but his offensive value is nullified because he doesnt play defense in the position where defense is the most important.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

AL jefferson isnt 1 of the best big men in the league wtf. He is a 1 dimensional low post scorer who doesnt impact the game when he isnt getting 20+ touches a game.

doesnt play defense, doesnt work the pick n roll, doesnt move the ball or is much of a passer, doesnt run the floor.

He is just a straight ISO Big man. He brings scoring to the 4/5 position but his offensive value is nullified because he doesnt play defense in the position where defense is the most important.

He's an ELITE low post scorer

This is him against the "great" Joakim Noah a few months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJOy5oaxHdw

It is not his fault that he has a bunch of people around him who can't shoot the ball, or stay healthy enough to balance the Utah team out.

Al Jefferson can BALL. But people have their biases against certain players that will have them talking out of adding a guy who is easily a top 25 player in this league. A player who is almost the polar opposite of Josh Smith on offense.

Nope. Let's not add that type of talent for the next 3 or 4 years, and hope we can get a big man out of college who can ball. Instead, let's get a top 5 pick, and roll the dice on a Cody Zellar type instead of getting a guy who is a PROVEN 18 ppg - 10 rebs a game player right now.

Offseason moves

You get Jefferson to add with Horford.

You go out and get another defensive center or PF ( and sign him to a one year contract, if you want to retain "cap flexibility" ).

You go out and get a wing defender who can give you timely offense

And you decide if Teague is the PG to lead this team.

Everything else you can add on the cheap, whether it be shooters or other role players.

But we'll see what Ferry will do.

Edited May 17, 2013 by northcyde

[JETSET]

Northcyde. You need to go back and watch our first game against Utah this season. Jefferson is as bad as it gets on the defensive side. He is a stat-padded that doesn't translate stats in to wins because his defense is so atrocious. Jefferson would be a waste and we would be right where we started. A 4-6 seed treadmill team.

Edited May 17, 2013 by JETSET

[AHF]

AL jefferson isnt 1 of the best big men in the league wtf. He is a 1 dimensional low post scorer who doesnt impact the game when he isnt getting 20+ touches a game.

doesnt play defense, doesnt work the pick n roll, doesnt move the ball or is much of a passer, doesnt run the floor.

He is just a straight ISO Big man. He brings scoring to the 4/5 position but his offensive value is nullified because he doesnt play defense in the position where defense is the most important.

Booo, yungsta. Al Jefferson is a dynamic force in the NBA.

Remember that time in 2012-13 when he almost led his team to the playoffs?

Remember that time in 2011-12 when he almost led his team to a single victory in the playoffs?

Remember that time in 2010-11 when he almost led his team to a top 10 (in the Western Conference) finish?

Remember when his T-Wolves teams almost averaged 21 wins per season and then somehow improved year over year when he left with this lineup? http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2011.html

* * * *

Al Jefferson is a useful but not nearly elite player in any sense of the word.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The same type of people who dog Al Jefferson, are the same type of people who were dogging Brook Lopez. Lopez has his flaws in certain areas, but there is NO DOUBT that he is an elite scoring center ( in today's NBA ). And those types of players are not easy to come by.

Not around here though. People would rather spend 6 million to retain Zaza, than to spend 13 million to get Jefferson.