Hawks looking to move Al Horford?

[Guest]

Oh Dolf that was awesome.I'm a nice easy going man.I like to play tennis on occasion (swinging air racket)That's awesome.Ps You want Lou to tell you who u are?

[Sarcatic1]

lol. Like I said, he was back. If this isn't reminiscent of this board last summer then I dont know what is.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Smh, did you even bother to read the previous posts?

Once again, what can Malone do ABILITY WISE that Horford can't do?

Not well Malone did this because him having elite playmaker in Stockton and playing next to a true center and makes a great difference. I am still trying to figure out how he is David Lee. Lee is inferior in terms of movement, defense, shooting, and finishing compared to Horford.

Malone post game wasn't any different than Horf. Similar moves. Similar strengths. Similar everything. Now Malone received much better entry passes but that's another advantage of playing with Stockton over average combo guards like Teague and Hinrich or over the hill balanced PG's like Bibby.

Ability wise?

Well for one, and it's the biggest one, Karl Malone could dominate people in the post, even if they were much bigger than him. He also played in an era in which they basically allowed defenders to put a "chicken wing" in your back, to either hold position or to literally steer an offensive player whatever way you wanted him to go . . . and he still dominated.

Malone's post game was light years ahead of Horford's right now. If Horford could score and draw fouls in the post even remotely like Karl Malone could, we might be still playing in the playoffs right now. Horford's post game is easily the weakest part of his game. And his inability to draw fouls keeps him from becoming a true go to scorer.

Stockton got tons of assists credited to him because after he delivered a simple post pass to Malone, Karl could then immediately do a move or two, and score the basket without taking a lot of dribbles. Horford doesn't even have a reliable go to post move. His jump hook is simply OK, and not something he can rely on.

Karl could get you in the post, and straight power through you. The dude was unstoppable at times, like in this game, 3 years later . . . at age 36

And the dude was virtually indestructible

Keep in mind, these are PLAYOFF games that I'm posting, not regular season games.

As for the David Lee comparison, he scores almost exactly like Horford does, via a plethora of midrange jumpers off the pick and roll, slow methodical post ups, and by receiving passes cutting to the basket . And Lee gets position a little better than Horford does for rebounds.

I was at this damn game last December. It was easily the worst game I've ever seen the Hawks play live and in person. And Josh Smith just flat out laid down on us. I believe this was the game that kind of started the fans turning on Josh.

But check out David Lee, and the way he played in this game. He's almost an Al Horford clone, minus the athleticism.

[Diesel]

Honestly, a better comparison to Horford offensively, is David Lee. Comparing him to Karl Malone in any way, shape, or form, is almost blasphemy.

You know, that's interesting. I think Lee has more offense and Horf may have better defense... but interesting.

[Diesel]

So Leadership your point is that Al can do all of those things that Malone can do, but he what... chooses not to do them? Wasn't allowed to do them? Is waiting to do them?

Come on man I love Al Horford as much as anyone but it's not a crime to say that he's nowhere near as skilled as Karl Malone, one of the greatest PF's ever, was.

The problem with most of LShip's viewpoint of players is that he buys in fully to potential without considering what they have shown over years of play. IN the words of Green... They were who we thought they were. Al is not going to automatically develop a go to move. He's not going to automatically be consistent with a back to the basket move. He's not going to automatically and consistently drive from the high post position for a dunk. He may play better than he has been playing beside a master of the PNR like CP3 but these other things that were automatic for Karl Malone are missing from his offensive agenda. Sure he can do them.. but Michael Jordan can shoot the three. Kyle Korver can get a layup. And Smoove can slash. As much as you like to see them, they are rare because those players don't do them consistently. The same is true of Al Horf when talking about the things he can do that Malone does.

[Admin]

You know, that's interesting. I think Lee has more offense and Horf may have better defense... but interesting.

Al is certainly closer to Lee than he is to Malone and it's not even close. Heck if Lee were half the defender that Al is he'd be starting for 3/4 of the teams in the league.

[Diesel]

Let's be honest. Most of you guys think Malone is better because he's been more impactful and successful than Horford has been so far in his career. You seen him help get his team to the Finals twice and you seen Horford play a role with the Hawks where getting to the 2nd round has been their peak.

So it's not about skill or ability, it's about being proven and perception. Understood. Is it right? No but I understand.

Why wasn't Horford ever our leading scorer?

Edited June 13, 2013 by Diesel

[Diesel]

Al is certainly closer to Lee than he is to Malone and it's not even close. Heck if Lee were half the defender that Al is he'd be starting for 3/4 of the teams in the league.

Had to look:

Rk Player From To G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS

1 Al Horford 2008 2013 391 387 13435 6.1 11.2 .539 0.0 0.0 .333 2.2 3.0 .739 2.8 7.3 10.1 2.7 0.9 1.2 1.7 2.8 14.3

2 David Lee 2006 2013 577 419 18721 6.7 12.5 .535 0.0 0.0 .040 3.1 4.0 .780 3.1 7.8 10.9 2.7 0.9 0.4 2.1 3.2 16.5

These guys are like twins with the exceptions we mentioned.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Diesel

[NBASupes]

Ability wise?

Well for one, and it's the biggest one, Karl Malone could dominate people in the post, even if they were much bigger than him. He also played in an era in which they basically allowed defenders to put a "chicken wing" in your back, to either hold position or to literally steer an offensive player whatever way you wanted him to go . . . and he still dominated.

Malone's post game was light years ahead of Horford's right now. If Horford could score and draw fouls in the post even remotely like Karl Malone could, we might be still playing in the playoffs right now. Horford's post game is easily the weakest part of his game. And his inability to draw fouls keeps him from becoming a true go to scorer.

Stockton got tons of assists credited to him because after he delivered a simple post pass to Malone, Karl could then immediately do a move or two, and score the basket without taking a lot of dribbles. Horford doesn't even have a reliable go to post move. His jump hook is simply OK, and not something he can rely on.

Karl could get you in the post, and straight power through you. The dude was unstoppable at times, like in this game, 3 years later . . . at age 36

And the dude was virtually indestructible

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6L8Pl9oAEQ

Keep in mind, these are PLAYOFF games that I'm posting, not regular season games.

As for the David Lee comparison, he scores almost exactly like Horford does, via a plethora of midrange jumpers off the pick and roll, slow methodical post ups, and by receiving passes cutting to the basket . And Lee gets position a little better than Horford does for rebounds.

I was at this damn game last December. It was easily the worst game I've ever seen the Hawks play live and in person. And Josh Smith just flat out laid down on us. I believe this was the game that kind of started the fans turning on Josh.

But check out David Lee, and the way he played in this game. He's almost an Al Horford clone, minus the athleticism.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6NCZdCN0c4

Malone wasn't dominating anyone in the post. Most of his offense came from the PnR, PnP, and quick post up from excellent entry passes that Stockton created. He is all system created.

Please show this light years post play? You posted highlights which showcased why my assessments are right more than anything else. A lot of Malone drawn fouls are based off the late reaction to Stockton's passes which is clear especially once the playoffs start and team are better prepared for it. While the pass my look simple to you, as a PG, I can tell you it takes vision, passing skills and the ability to see three passes forward to make a lot of these plays. Most PG's lack this ability.

I call shenanigans on the Lee comparison due to almost every efficiency stat that says Horf is miles better. Also watching him play with my own eyes says Horford is superior. Horford is a two way player while Lee isn't.

David Lee reminds me of Chris Webber after all the injuries. Great passer. Very good scorer. Solid shooter. Terrible defender. Then again, like Webber and Malone and Horf, they are all movement PF's.

Here is some posts on Malone in general:

1.Stockton seems to be far more impactful player than Malone according to plus minus stats. particularly defensively Malone seems far worse than people thought.

2.you have a volume scoring big whose efficiency drops significantly in the PS and who doesn't really bring you all that much outside of scoring. he's a good rebounder and became a really good passer later in his career but that can only be used as a tiebreaker, not his primary qualities.

Is Karl Malone massively overrated ? I'm thinkin #25 all-time or so. why is his impact in MVP years (97-99) just weak ? why does Stockton look so much better than Malone in +/- stats ? why did the Jazz perform so poorly despite combining supposed top3 PF and top5 PG on the same team ?

Is Malone overrated?

Well, that raises the question of where he's rated to begin with, no?

I think that a lot of people are starting to question his position relative to Dirk, Barkley, Duncan and even Garnett.

He was always an impressive offensive player and a solid man defensive player who played well within the team concept but wasn't a defensive anchor because he was never a dominant help defender. He was the ultimate hard-work guy and he evidenced a massive amount of skill development throughout his career (most clearly seen in his FT shooting and jumper, of course, but also as a passer, screen-and-roll baller, etc). He struggled with iso post sometimes and he wasn't an ultra-athlete in the run/jump sense, though obviously he had excellent end-to-end speed and fantastic power.

I think that it's fairer to say that guys are starting to catch up to Malone more so than he is "massively overrated." He was a very good player and he ranks well stacked up against his peers at the 4. Exactly where, well, that is another matter, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to call him "massively overrated," especially on the merits of a stat like APM (or RAPM, etc, etc), since there are still plenty of issues with those representations and I've never had faith in single-number metrics for basketball players as anything but guides for the next direction of analytical process.

I think Malone is pretty overrated (not sure about "massively" but I guess that depends on how you look at it). I feel like Malone is a top-30 all-time guy, but not top-20. I think Stockton belongs in the same general category, but I rank him slightly ahead of Malone.

I don't think it goes against common sense to rank Stockton ahead of Malone, and some people did think it at the time. When you listen to John Wooden or Jack Ramsey talk about their admiration for Stockton, they clearly felt he was vastly underrated and incredibly valuable. They're not going to come out and directly compare him to Malone and rank the two of them (which probably wasn't asked of them, and would be in sort-of poor taste anyway), but the implication of preferring Stockton seems to be there in some of what they've said. Some other people felt this way at the time, too... this was obviously a minority opinion, but it's not like it was unheard of either. Isiah Thomas also made it very clear that he ranked Stockton over Malone, while speaking at halftime of a broadcast a few weeks ago.

Malone was not a very high-IQ player and he made some very unfortunate mistakes in key moments. Even more importantly, his performance dropped off more in the playoffs than perhaps any other major star ever. His TS% dropped almost 6%, going from very efficient in RS to poor in the PS. His Ortg was much worse in PS than in RS... and his REB% and AST% were lower, but his usage was higher. In 1996 and 1997 respectively, Malone had usage rates of 35% and 33%, but only had a TS% of .498 and .501 ... in other words, he had the ball in his hands constantly and was horribly inefficient.

Stockton did have some bad series in the playoffs and especially had trouble with athletic physical guards (like Harper or KJ), but his overall playoff performance was still pretty good (.568 TS%, over .200 ws/48 seven times, over 120 Ortg eight times, led playoffs in AST% nine times, and STL% twice... also had some great individual games and series, and multiple big clutch moments).

[NBASupes]

Why wasn't Horford ever our leading scorer?

Have we ever featured him till this year and even then how can you feature someone who struggles creating their own offense with an average combo guard PG like Teague. We had two natural 20PPG scoring in any system in Joe and Jamal. We never had the PG to feature Al. We have never had to feature him as a scorer.

[Diesel]

Have we ever featured him till this year and even then how can you feature someone who struggles creating their own offense with an average combo guard PG like Teague. We had two natural 20PPG scoring in any system in Joe and Jamal. We never had the PG to feature Al. We have never had to feature him as a scorer.

That's the problem... struggles to create their own offense. That's Horf.

In college Malone avged 18.9/9.3. He didn't seem to have a problem starting his offense. Coming out of Fl, everybody's main concern was will Horf be able to score. He has no goto move.

[NBASupes]

The problem with most of LShip's viewpoint of players is that he buys in fully to potential without considering what they have shown over years of play. IN the words of Green... They were who we thought they were. Al is not going to automatically develop a go to move. He's not going to automatically be consistent with a back to the basket move. He's not going to automatically and consistently drive from the high post position for a dunk. He may play better than he has been playing beside a master of the PNR like CP3 but these other things that were automatic for Karl Malone are missing from his offensive agenda. Sure he can do them.. but Michael Jordan can shoot the three. Kyle Korver can get a layup. And Smoove can slash. As much as you like to see them, they are rare because those players don't do them consistently. The same is true of Al Horf when talking about the things he can do that Malone does.

Here is the problem with your post. It is assumed that Malone can do some of that by you when he never did it consistently in Utah.

Al is not going to automatically develop a go to move. He's not going to automatically be consistent with a back to the basket move.

Horford is a movement player, he doesn't need a go to move. Does any movement player have a go to move?

He will never need too. That turnaround hook shot is all he needs consistently.

He's not going to automatically and consistently drive from the high post position for a dunk. He may play better than he has been playing beside a master of the PNR like CP3 but these other things that were automatic for Karl Malone are missing from his offensive agenda.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about again? It is clear, if the lane is available he will attack. He has always done that. All movement players can do that. Boozer, West, Lee, Amare, Kemp, Malone, and Horford. Sometimes, your foolishness amazes me and then people agree with you which is extremely bothersome to a large degree.

Sure he can do them.. but Michael Jordan can shoot the three. Kyle Korver can get a layup. And Smoove can slash. As much as you like to see them, they are rare because those players don't do them consistently. The same is true of Al Horf when talking about the things he can do that Malone does.

This post defy foolishness to a massive degree. What the heck does this even mean. Korver could get a layup if he had the ability to get to the paint consistently which he doesn't. Smoove has weak handles and a poor 1st step. MJ doesn't need to shoot threes and only did it to keep defenses honest. Once again, what does it have to do with Horford. He does everything Malone does. Every SINGLE thing.

Please tell me what he can't do like Malone. The only thing you have done is say he can't do it. When I provide video and ask you to provide video. You just prove me right on my assessment.

[Diesel]

It's funny that you can find the problems that exist in normal play with those guys and miss it with Horf. Horf needs a wide open lane to be a driver. Horf you admit has no goto move... No up and under. No drop step. No face up Jumper with or without a hand in his face. We hope he develops some of that but he doesn't have any of that under NORMAL conditions. Here's what Horf does... He scores well in transition and he can score when the lane is wide open or if there's no hand in his face... and you want to equate that to Karl Malone??? THAT's FOOLISH.

[NBASupes]

That's the problem... struggles to create their own offense. That's Horf.

In college Malone avged 18.9/9.3. He didn't seem to have a problem starting his offense. Coming out of Fl, everybody's main concern was will Horf be able to score. He has no goto move.

Malone avg. 18.9/9.3 at Louisiana Tech in the low level of D1. But did have records of His Dunkin' Dawgs' teams posted records of 19-9, 26-7 and an astounding 29-3 in his final season at Louisiana Tech. All three seasons he was named Sporting News Honorable Mention All-American.

Horford avg. 13/2/9.5 at Florida and won two national titles at the highest level of D1. He also earned First Team All-SEC honors and earned a spot on the Final Four All-Tournament team, averaging a double-double in NCAA Tournament play for the second straight year.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2eoky_nba-al-horford-draft-2007no-3_sport#.UbotL-fFX4I

[NBASupes]

It's funny that you can find the problems that exist in normal play with those guys and miss it with Horf. Horf needs a wide open lane to be a driver. Horf you admit has no goto move... No up and under. No drop step. No face up Jumper with or without a hand in his face. We hope he develops some of that but he doesn't have any of that under NORMAL conditions. Here's what Horf does... He scores well in transition and he can score when the lane is wide open or if there's no hand in his face... and you want to equate that to Karl Malone??? THAT's FOOLISH.

Once again, there is no movement player regardless of position that had a to go move. Amare is the closes and Amare was the only player who could do everything offensively. He could create his own offense, play the PnR, PnP, score with his back to the basket consistently with Nash and in isolation.

So I don't see your point. Karl Malone didn't have a go to move. His points came from the PnR and PnP, quick post up, and of course his bread and butter was transition baskets.

[NBASupes]

He scores well in transition and he can score when the lane is wide open or if there's no hand in his face... and you want to equate that to Karl Malone??? THAT's FOOLISH.

Like you said, it's hard to rate someone super high if their calling card isn't something that carries over well into the post season.

He's a good rebounder, a solid defender and a quality passer... but when you are a superstar because of your scoring, your scoring always has to be on, or your impact is a facade.

Guys like David Robinson(who is usually rated lower) could be totally shut down as a scorer and still have a huge impact on a game because of his defensive prowess. Even someone like Dwight Howard can have huge rebounding games and come up big defensively.

It's like having Dirk Nowitzki, and then making him not so great as a scorer come post season... what would be the point?

He's an awesome player, and regular season counts for more than most people give credit for, but Karl Malone's value is hinged on his scoring ability, and it's not something that was always there, and having elite PG play and elite offensive coaching nearly his entire career has to be accounted for.

I think it's more the -5.1%/-7 drop in TS%/ORTG when the playoffs rolled around that gets people. He was WAAAAAY worse in the playoffs. Stockton saw a really sharp and significant drop-off as well.

In 97 and 98, Malone went from 60% and 59.7% (respectively) and 118 ORTG both years to 50.1% TS/105 ORTG in 97 and 53.4% TS and 105 ORTG in 1998.

That's a HUMONGOUS drop-off in efficacy, especially considering that scoring was his primary contribution and that his volume floated the team's offense.

97 Finals: 23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.5 apg

Pretty good, right? 48.5% TS, and that's WITH 9.7 FTA/g, partially because he shot 60.3% FT and 44.3% FG compared to his regular season 55.0% FG and 75.5% FT (on 8.4 FTA/g).

So you're seeing the roughly 12% drop in TS from RS to Finals there, right? He averaged 27.4 ppg in the 97 RS and 27.0 ppg in the 98 RS, for reference. -3 ppg, -12.5% TS, just utterly brutal. He had a 6-20 game in game 2. Had a big game 3, 15-29 for 37 points in a Utah win, then a 17/7 game in game 5 and a 7/15, 21-point game in the elimination game.

98 Finals: 25.0 ppg, 10.5 rpg, 3.8 apg

Much better surface stats, only -2 ppg. 50.4% FG, 78.9% FT (only 6.3 FTA/g, compared to 10.2 in the RS). 55.3% TS, still a 4.4% drop-off but not nearly as disgustingly bad as he'd been the year before. Laid a 9/25, 21-point egg in the opener, followed up with a 5/16, 16-pointer in game 2. Lucky him, they'd won the first game, so it was 1-1. 8/11 in Game 3 in that massive 96-54 blowout as the Bulls walked all over them; had 7 turnovers in 31 minutes. 10-21 for 21 points in game 4. Big game, 17/27, 39 points in Game 5. Then 11-19 for 31 in the elimination game.

Malone was a lot better the second time around, particularly after sucking ass in the first two games and coughing the ball up like a mad man in game 3, but he still had huge issues through that series. One of his issues was that Stockton was useless and horrible, though coming back from MF surgery, that wasn't a huge surprise.

In any case, he was BRUTAL in the playoffs compared to the regular season, which is what people are talking about when they say "performed poorly." He was way, way worse in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Malone's playoff scoring efficiency wouldn't hurt so bad if he were a dominant defender, rebounder, and/or passer.

People are making this case that his playoffs weren't that bad as if ppg and TS% are the only things that matter in the playoffs. Sorry, when the post season starts, all facets of the game still matter. Showing that he scored a few more points than someone doesn't prove they fell off as hard as he did.

TS% is basically points per shot (FTs are also shots!).

And look how Malone looks during his +20 PPG playoffs runs (volume + efficiency relative to league average):

Player Season ▴ PTS realtiveTS%

Karl Malone* 1986 21,8 -2,0

Karl Malone* 1987 20,0 -5,6

Karl Malone* 1988 29,7 -0,1

Karl Malone* 1989 30,7 3,7

Karl Malone* 1990 25,2 -3,1

Karl Malone* 1991 29,7 0,2

Karl Malone* 1992 29,1 8,6

Karl Malone* 1993 24,0 -0,8

Karl Malone* 1994 27,1 0,3

Karl Malone* 1995 30,2 0,7

Karl Malone* 1996 26,5 -4,4

Karl Malone* 1997 26,0 -3,5

Karl Malone* 1998 26,3 1,0

Karl Malone* 1999 21,8 -1,9

Karl Malone* 2000 27,2 6,1

Karl Malone* 2001 27,6 -3,4

Karl Malone* 2002 20,0 -5,1

So usually he was below average scorer or slightly above average. Only three time he was really efficient scorer in playoffs... Even Kobe looks better:

Player Season ▴ PTS realtiveTS%

Kobe Bryant 2003 32,1 1,2

Kobe Bryant 2009 30,2 1,9

Kobe Bryant 2008 30,1 3,7

Kobe Bryant 2012 30,0 -0,2

Kobe Bryant 2001 29,4 3,7

Kobe Bryant 2010 29,2 2,4

Kobe Bryant 2002 26,6 -0,9

Kobe Bryant 2006 27,9 5,2

Kobe Bryant 2004 24,5 -1,0

Kobe Bryant 2007 32,8 2,0

Kobe Bryant 2011 22,8 -0,5

Kobe Bryant 2000 21,1 -0,6

Not to mention guys like Kareem, who are much, much better:

Player Season ▴ PTS realtiveTS%

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1970 35,2 9,7

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1971 26,6 4,8

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1972 28,7 -4,2

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1973 22,8 -5,1

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1974 32,2 8,0

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1977 34,6 13,5

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1978 27,0 1,1

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1979 28,5 10,6

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1980 31,9 8,0

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1981 26,7 -1,8

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1982 20,4 1,1

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1983 27,1 7,7

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1984 23,9 4,9

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1985 21,9 5,9

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1986 25,9 4,5

Diesel, this is Karl Malone in a nutshell. The minute the transition offense stopped and they could force Malone to beat you, he was extremely inefficient all of a sudden. This is someone who is suppose to be superior in the post to Horford?

[Diesel]

From NBAdraft.net:

Matthew Maurer - 12/14/2006

Strengths: Runs extremely well, able to beat most forwards down the court Is blessed with an NBA ready body and good strength Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills Attacks the basket with aggression and power A surprising ball handler and passer for his size This enables him to pass out of double teams with relative ease Is physical in the low post and does a good job of drawling fouls from opposing defenders Usually he is able to use his upper body strength and finish after contact Really makes a big impact on the glass where he uses his body strength to box out Has proven to be a very coachable player with a solid work ethic Possesses a calm presence, doesnt let his emotions get the best of him Shows good court awareness, rarely does he try moves that are beyond his skill level Has shown the ability to hit the 12-15 foot jumper from mid-range Maintains good body control and balance absorbing contact well from opposing post defenders Rarely bobbles or fails to catch passes thrown into the post thanks to his soft hands

Weaknesses: Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement Post footwork can be choppy. By improving this, Horford will become a lot more effective post player Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game Still hasnt played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent Can drift at times during games. Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates

Check the strengths and the weaknesses. Not much has changed. When I asked you why wasn't he the lead scorer, you blamed system and coaching. However the truth is that if a player is a great talent, the system and coaching will bend to him like blades of grass in a windstorm. Horf just is not the player that you are trying to conjurer up. He's not Karl Malone. We wish he were but he's not. He's more akin to David Lee than Karl Malone... so nobody needs to put out what he can and can't do, that's moot if you're only talking about an occassional thing. More importantly is what does he consistently do... and the answer for that is NOT Karl Malone.

[NBASupes]

Check the strengths and the weaknesses. Not much has changed. When I asked you why wasn't he the lead scorer, you blamed system and coaching. However the truth is that if a player is a great talent, the system and coaching will bend to him like blades of grass in a windstorm. Horf just is not the player that you are trying to conjurer up. He's not Karl Malone. We wish he were but he's not. He's more akin to David Lee than Karl Malone... so nobody needs to put out what he can and can't do, that's moot if you're only talking about an occassional thing. More importantly is what does he consistently do... and the answer for that is NOT Karl Malone.

Let's see:

Weaknesses: Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement Post footwork can be choppy. By improving this, Horford will become a lot more effective post player Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game Still hasnt played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent Can drift at times during games. Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates

Bolded for if he has improved it.

"Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter:

He is one of the best if not the best in the NBA at shooting the mid range jumper for a big in the last three seasons.

"Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness"

He has improved it greatly this past season. His foul rates are some of the best in the NBA as a PF/C

"Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement Post footwork can be choppy."

Compared to college, he has improved but the facts remain. Horford footwork is choppy.

"Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game"

True

"Still hasnt played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent"

He is a very consistent player in the NBA. Been so since day 1.

"Can drift at times during games."

This is especially true with the Hawks.

"Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should"

True about his scoring, his positioning for rebounds has greatly improved his college days. He never really had a true PG in college or the pros.

"Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates"

He has improved this to become an average FT shooter.

Once again, quit making stuff up.

When I asked you why wasn't he the lead scorer, you blamed system and coaching.

I never blamed the coach. The system would be fine if he has a true PG and because of that, the system isn't one that is ideal if you wanted Al to be your #1.

However the truth is that if a player is a great talent, the system and coaching will bend to him like blades of grass in a windstorm. Horf just is not the player that you are trying to conjurer up. He's not Karl Malone. We wish he were but he's not. He's more akin to David Lee than Karl Malone... so nobody needs to put out what he can and can't do, that's moot if you're only talking about an occassional thing.

This part is all of your opinion which I completely disagree with since you are always wrong.

[Swatguy]

Al can nail that 18ft jumper. He is great in transition and when matched against a smaller or slow-footed player he can out maneuver. But he is limited as a post player because of under-developed footwork and relatively short arms. He will thrive as PnP PF. In the post he better be more Moses and Karl and eat the glass to get to the line.

[AHF]

I love it. Al has can do everything a 29 point per game scorer could do and is more aggressive than him (really?) but can't outscore Josh Smith.

This sums up my reaction to this thread:

I find to be unjust and incredulous.

I'm done with this one so have fun with the remaining debate.