Small forwards in Atlanta's Pipe dream?

[capstone21]

I would like to bring back KK and sign a sg who can guard either SF/SG.

I like the idea of Barnes, Wright, Webster or Ak-47 (if he would sign for the min to win)

[Admin]

I would like to bring back KK and sign a sg who can guard either SF/SG.

I like the idea of Barnes, Wright, Webster or Ak-47 (if he would sign for the min to win)

Sign AK-47 and then draft Karasev, who it sounds like pretty much idolized AK-47 growing up and has worked with him a lot to improve his game. We'd be set at SF for a long time to come if he works out as well as I think he will.

[capstone21]

Sign AK-47 and then draft Karasev, who it sounds like pretty much idolized AK-47 growing up and has worked with him a lot to improve his game. We'd be set at SF for a long time to come if he works out as well as I think he will.

It would be an interesting dynamic to have a multi faceted team player like AK-47

[Admin]

It would be an interesting dynamic to have a multi faceted team player like AK-47

A year ago I would have said hell no but the way he came back this year he proved that he can make a difference. He's not quite the player that Smoove is in a lot of ways but he's a smarter player who won't hurt you with the bad shots either and for a fraction of the cost he'd be a bargain.

[mattlanta]

NBAdraft.net has us taking Shabazz Muhammad

I don't think Shabazz will fall to us, to be honest. In a draft that is not so deep with talent, I think he will be a lottery draft pick.

[Flight]

I think it'd be interesting to take a chance on Wes Johnson, I feel like he has potential and just needs the right system. You never know, we could turn him into a Paul George-Lite

[Diesel]

I definitely didn't mention every free agent SF. IN fact, many of the guys listed in this thread are guys I like.

1. Dorell Wright.

2. Trevor

3. Korver

4. Marion

5. Barnes

6. Wes Johnson

7. Corey Brewer.

I have stated several times that in the draft, I would like to take a shot at either Shabazz or Tim Hardaway Jr. or both.

[Guest Walter]

Seems that nobody is talking about Dorrell Wright, I think he would be one of the best options at SF, I haven't seen Corey Brewer neither. Best option for Hawks would be Brewer, Dorrell Wright and Matt Barnes, and then draft. I would like to have Ariza also but I doubt he opts out and becomes UFA.

That's my list also with Wesley Johnson in there. Frankly, I would push for brewer then Johnson because I think he's the type of player bud could coach up and the guy has always had upside. Moreover, I think he could be sold on making a name for himself here and not cost too much for his upside given his struggles. Maybe Webster also. I'm curious if granger gets amnestied.

Of note, the cheap fa Sfs this yr are better than the cheap fa sgs this year.

W

[Buzzard]

Not true. You have the full MLE till you get to the luxury tax which could be around 70.1 million. Then you get the MMLE if you are over the luxury tax mark. When you are under the cap floor, you do not have a MLE to offer. So if we stay under the cap floor, we cannot use the MLE.

This is what we will get:

" Teams with cap room, previously ineligible for the MLE, have a new MLE of $2.5 million with a two-year duration. The MLE is frozen at the stated levels through the 2012–13 season, after which it increases by 3% per season"

I was wrong about teams under the cap not getting one. That was the old CBA. I think the thing people get confused with is when the MLE based on a teams salary is awarded. It is awarded after the draft and before FA. If you are under the cap after the draft, the above amount is your MLE. Under the old CBA, we would not have received one.

link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_salary_cap#Mid-level_exception

Edited June 13, 2013 by Buzzard

[NBASupes]

My list:

1. Webster

2. Budinger

3. Wright

4. Brewer

5. Korver

6. Wes

7 but could be 1 is Paul Pierce.

[Diesel]

My list:

1. Webster

2. Budinger

3. Wright

4. Brewer

5. Korver

6. Wes

7 but could be 1 is Paul Pierce.

What is your fascination with Webster?

He's a poor man's Marvin Williams. IN fact,he has less heart than Marvin.

Also Budinger?

I can't point to one thing he does consistently.

I think Dahntay Jones brings more to the table than either of those guys.

[NBASupes]

What is your fascination with Webster?

He's a poor man's Marvin Williams. IN fact,he has less heart than Marvin.

Also Budinger?

I can't point to one thing he does consistently.

I think Dahntay Jones brings more to the table than either of those guys.

I watched him live in about 5 games this year. I see him being a great impact to a great team where all he does is play a role. I posted the stats, adv stats, impact, and quotes in a previous thread.

A poor man's Marvin Williams? I am 100% you don't what the hell you are talking about in general so I will write that comparison off as blatant foolishness on your part.

I love Budinger game. It is perfect for movement offense and role for a winning team. Plays consistent defense. Doesn't miss defensive rotations, high BBIQ, understand how to play off the ball, very good 3pt shooter, and understanding how to be a hard worker and a consummate professional. Has a winning mind and his impact is very good for a role player.

Honestly, you might be one of the worse Basketball minds on this site. It's like talking to someone who doesn't watch NBA Basketball.

Tell me why these guys bring less to the table in your opinion than D. Jones? Please tell me why you like the guys you like in a full analytic stance? No, one sentence opinions either. Think this out since you have such a strong and wrong opinion.

[Diesel]

I watched him live in about 5 games this year. I see him being a great impact to a great team where all he does is play a role. I posted the stats, adv stats, impact, and quotes in a previous thread.

A poor man's Marvin Williams? I am 100% you don't what the hell you are talking about in general so I will write that comparison off as blatant foolishness on your part.

For your enjoyment.

Since you are one of these advanced stat guys... Let's get to it.

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Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48 1 Martell Webster 2006 2013 470 11405 11.9 .553 .513 3.1 12.9 7.9 6.8 1.2 1.0 10.7 17.2 109 109 11.8 7.9 19.7 .083 2 Marvin Williams 2006 2013 560 16549 13.5 .537 .475 5.3 15.1 10.2 7.2 1.4 1.2 10.1 17.7 110 108 19.7 14.1 33.8 .098

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Webster 11.9.

USG: Marvin 17.7 Webster 17.2

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Wester 11.8

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Webster 7.9

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Webster 0.083

Like I was saying.... Webster is a poor Man's Marvin Williams.

[NBASupes]

For your enjoyment.

Since you are one of these advanced stat guys... Let's get to it.

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Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48 1 Martell Webster 2006 2013 470 11405 11.9 .553 .513 3.1 12.9 7.9 6.8 1.2 1.0 10.7 17.2 109 109 11.8 7.9 19.7 .083 2 Marvin Williams 2006 2013 560 16549 13.5 .537 .475 5.3 15.1 10.2 7.2 1.4 1.2 10.1 17.7 110 108 19.7 14.1 33.8 .098

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Webster 11.9.

USG: Marvin 17.7 Webster 17.2

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Wester 11.8

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Webster 7.9

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Webster 0.083

Like I was saying.... Webster is a poor Man's Marvin Williams.

Can you explain these stats and explain why skill-set wise he is like Marvin or a poor man's in your view? This is what I call complete broken analysis. Blanket stats with no meaning whatsoever. Does this describe his ability? No. His impact on the game? No.

Diesel since you are on a roll of broken analysis, how about you do the same for all of the other players you listed in comparison to Marvin with these blanket stats you have listed.

[Diesel]

Can you explain these stats and explain why skill-set wise he is like Marvin or a poor man's in your view? This is what I call complete broken analysis. Blanket stats with no meaning whatsoever. Does this describe his ability? No. His impact on the game? No.

Diesel since you are on a roll of broken analysis, how about you do the same for all of the other players you listed in comparison to Marvin with these blanket stats you have listed.

Obviously, you didn't read or either comprehend what I said previously. I said he's a poor man's Marvin in terms of heart. Skillsetwise, he's a weak willed shooter who stands out on the three point line and waits for somebody to give him the ball for an open shot. In his time in Atlanta, So was Marvin. This is why their USG were like mirror images. But more than that, Marvin excelled over him in rebounds. This is why his DWS is higher than Websters. Webster is really a 2 and not a 3 in this rendition of the NBA. Marvin is a 3-4 that plays like a 2-3 . So when you look at function (a little beyond skillset).. Webster does the same thing that Marvin does without the rebounding and without the defense. That is why I call him a poor man's Marvin. Neither of them are good and because we have lived through Marvin waiting for somebody to start his offense, we know how frustrating having a player with a great skillset but lacking the heart to utilize it's function can be.

To farther my point...

Here's a review of Martell Webster a few years back:

Mash all of that together and you come out with a player who can defend and rebound, a guy who can hit a three just fine, and a guy who will occasionally give you spectacular stretches of offensive play. You also have a player who has limited offensive options, tends to disappear when the environment doesn't suit his strengths, and who has a fairly mediocre effect on the team and the game overall. Martell doesn't hurt the Blazers at all. He just doesn't help them consistently either...a development somewhat masked by the critical emergency relief he provided this year. While he shows some signs of growth (defense, rebounding) he's not blossoming. He would probably thrive if the Blazers committed to giving him minutes and to setting him up for offensive success but neither of those eventualities is in the cards as he duplicates Nicolas Batum's position and the team has plenty of people ahead of him in the offensive pecking order.

Here's one for Marvin Williams.

It was thought that the move from a more isolation offense to more of a motion concept would help Marvin in the big picture of what is the Hawks offense. There was nights that it did but all to often, especially coming down the stretch of the season, he seemed to disappear and was little more than an afterthought. The fifth man in a lineup where there is a small distribution of shots available....

The biggest problem is that it seems that Marvin peaked offensively for the Hawks when he was 21 years old and averaged 14.8 points per game 2007-08. Williams attempted 11.5 shots per game that season but over the last two seasons he has averaged just 8.2 and 8.3. That no doubt has a lot to do with the presence of Jamal Crawford in the lineup.

I am of the opinion that Atlanta will shop Williams hard this summer as he perhaps needs a fresh start with a new team.

Again. Disappearing acts.

You say but this season, Martell showed up??! Yeah for perhaps the most injured team in the league. There was no other choice but to play him big minutes and to look to him to score. Marvin didn't get that luxury but if he did, his stat line this year would be similar to Martells. The point is on a team with CP3 and D12, neither of these guys would be able to raise their games to match those guys and neither of these guys. It would be a mistake.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

NBAdraft.net has us taking Shabazz Muhammad

I said a couple of weeks back that if he fell to us, we almost have to take him. His game may be a lot like Marvin's, with one exception . . . he did experience what it felt like to be the lead dog in an offense, while Marvin was a 6th man that never was the focus of an offense. And Muhammad's all around offensive game is more advanced than Marvin's was after his freshman year. At least Muhammad has a nice post up game to go along with his ability to knock down spot up jumpers.

And drafting a talent similar to Marvin is far less detrimental at #17, than it was at #2.

If at minimum we come out of this offseason with a backcourt of Teague and Jenkins, wth Muhammad at the SF as a starter or a 6th man, I can't complain too much about that.

[NBASupes]

Obviously, you didn't read or either comprehend what I said previously. I said he's a poor man's Marvin in terms of heart. Skillsetwise, he's a weak willed shooter who stands out on the three point line and waits for somebody to give him the ball for an open shot. In his time in Atlanta, So was Marvin. This is why their USG were like mirror images. But more than that, Marvin excelled over him in rebounds. This is why his DWS is higher than Websters. Webster is really a 2 and not a 3 in this rendition of the NBA. Marvin is a 3-4 that plays like a 2-3 . So when you look at function (a little beyond skillset).. Webster does the same thing that Marvin does without the rebounding and without the defense. That is why I call him a poor man's Marvin. Neither of them are good and because we have lived through Marvin waiting for somebody to start his offense, we know how frustrating having a player with a great skillset but lacking the heart to utilize it's function can be.

To farther my point...

Here's a review of Martell Webster a few years back:

Here's one for Marvin Williams.

Again. Disappearing acts.

You say but this season, Martell showed up??! Yeah for perhaps the most injured team in the league. There was no other choice but to play him big minutes and to look to him to score. Marvin didn't get that luxury but if he did, his stat line this year would be similar to Martells. The point is on a team with CP3 and D12, neither of these guys would be able to raise their games to match those guys and neither of these guys. It would be a mistake.

Not sure how one man like yourself can be so wrong. Let's play the blanket game by Diesel. We will compare everyone to Marvin since this makes everyone who isn't as good stat wise, a poor man's Marvin. We will use career stats since that's all Marvin will look at. We will not use last year even if that is a much better indicator than anything else.

Webster

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Webster 11.9.

USG: Marvin 17.7 Webster 17.2

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Wester 11.8

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Webster 7.9

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Webster 0.083

Dorell Wright.

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Wright 14.6.

USG: Marvin 17.7 Wright 17.8

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Wright 12.1

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Wright 10.3

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Wright 0.101

Winner: Marvin, in Diesel's mind is Wright is a poor man's Marvin.

Trevor

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Ariza 13.7

USG: Marvin 17.7 Ariza 18.2

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Ariza 6.5

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Ariza 19.6

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Ariza 0.088

Winner: Marvin, Ariza is an extremely poor man's Marvin in Diesel's mind.

Korver

Size:

PER: Marvin 13.5. Korver 13.0

USG: Marvin 17.7 Korver 17.0

OWS: Marvin 19.7 Korver 27.5

DWS: Marvin 14.1 Korver 18.4

WS/48: Marvin 0.098 Korver 0.115

Winner: Draw, Korver is the only one who isn't a poor man's Marvin using what Diesel would use as a mindset.

Now let's talk real Basketball and not foolishness like Diesel.

Webster skill-set is: Good BBIQ with a lapse at times that can get him in trouble. A true professional. Plays well off the ball. Understands positioning. Rarely misses defensive rotations. Elite corner 3pt shooter. His heart, sorry Diesel but I will call bullshit on your heart statement in relations to Webster.

His weaknesses are his athletic ability, lateral quickness, is ability on ball, his impact when he isn't involved on offense. While he was healthy for Washington, he has had injury issues in the past for other teams.

Best fit: Teams who play with ball movement, Teams with a good PG who can penetrate, Teams who have a high BBIQ.

Worst fit: Teams who specialize with isolation Basketball, Teams who have low BBIQ, Teams with PG's who don't penetrate well and lack the talent to be good PG's.

Diesel, I won't read your take on Webster from several years. Why? Because it is from several years ago. Several years ago, Wade one a top 5 player in the NBA without question. Things change. 2nd reason is, you have been dead wrong of recent notice. Why should I believe anything you write.

You said he was the poor man's Marvin Williams, now you are saying he is the poor man's Marvin in terms of heart. You will say anything regardless if it makes sense or not which it doesn't in this case.

Here is a relevant column on Martell right now.

http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerShots.html?sortField=FG_PCTZone4&sortOrder=DES&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&GameSegment=&Period=0&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&Outcome=&Location=&DateFrom=&DateTo=&SeasonSegment=&Month=0&LastNGames=0&PlusMinus=N&Rank=N&splits=Y&rowsPerPage=100&pageNo=1

Offense: Webster fit his role to a T, becoming one of the league's feared outside shooters, particularly from the corners. A late slump bumped Webster down from his perch a bit, but he still finished sixth in the NBA in corner three-point percentage among players that attempted at least 50 shots. Webster was no slouch from the wings either -- he was 65th in the league in above-the-break three-point percentage among those with at least 50 shots attempted.

Webster's three-point proficiency was good enough for the Wizards to incorporate a new play into their playbook to take advantage of his shooting and John Wall's cross-court passing.

The play starts on one side with Wall running a standard angled pick and roll. Webster will stand on the opposite wing rather than the corner.

The speed pick and roll on the right side draws everyone's attention. Meanwhile, Webster will sneak to the corner.

As Webster goes to the corner, Wall will throw a cross-court pass. Meanwhile, the other big man -- Jason Collins, in this case -- will set a flare screen on Webster's man, preventing him from recovering.

The end result is a wide-open three if executed correctly.

All in all, Webster's shooting was essential to an offense that didn't have much of it from the big positions. There were games where Webster didn't make much of an impact, but he was enough of a threat to open up opportunities for others, especially after Wall's return from injury.

Defense: Webster was not a stopper by any means, but he generally worked hard and was in the right spots. The key is that he didn't do anything to mitigate the offensive advantage that playing him gives you. The Wizards were only 1.1 points worse per 100 possessionswith him out, despite the presence of Trevor Ariza.

[NBASupes]

I said a couple of weeks back that if he fell to us, we almost have to take him. His game may be a lot like Marvin's, with one exception . . . he did experience what it felt like to be the lead dog in an offense, while Marvin was a 6th man that never was the focus of an offense. And Muhammad's all around offensive game is more advanced than Marvin's was after his freshman year. At least Muhammad has a nice post up game to go along with his ability to knock down spot up jumpers.

And drafting a talent similar to Marvin is far less detrimental at #17, than it was at #2.

If at minimum we come out of this offseason with a backcourt of Teague and Jenkins, wth Muhammad at the SF as a starter or a 6th man, I can't complain too much about that.

Muhammad is not a SF especially out of college. Too small for now. Didn't understand the college game much less the NBA game. I am actually a fan of drafting him as he can be a nice addition to the bench and he can grow into being a very good role player. He needs to do some growing mentally but I liken him to Ron Mercer.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I definitely didn't mention every free agent SF. IN fact, many of the guys listed in this thread are guys I like.

1. Dorell Wright.

2. Trevor

3. Korver

4. Marion

5. Barnes

6. Wes Johnson

7. Corey Brewer.

I have stated several times that in the draft, I would like to take a shot at either Shabazz or Tim Hardaway Jr. or both.

I wouldn't be mad at that either.

This draft should not be about filling a need. It should be about drafting a guy who has the potential to be better than guys who have been drafted before him. Despite being drafted #17, Josh Smith turned out to be one of the top 5 best players in the 2004 Draft, and will end up having a very nice NBA career.

Those are the types of players we need to identify in this draft with those mid round picks. And I think both Muhammad ( if he falls to us ) and Tim Hardaway Jr can be those types of players.

What I don't want to do is feel we have to draft somebody because they fill a position of need, and possibly pass on a guy with more talent.

[Diesel]

I agree, we have to take him... but I have some concerns:

1. Size - 6'6" not really tall enough.

2. Style: Post up Sf with set shot and left hand drive. - predictable and I doubt he can postup in the NBA at 6'6".

3. Slow first step.

Even with all those concerns, I think he has more to offer than the statpage shows.

My best case for him: Shorter, lefty Paul Peirce.

My worst case for him: Bobby Simmons.

I'd give him a shot all that considered.