Myths...and the ultimate truth.

[Buzzard]

Carmelo Anthony: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_Gallinari

Chirs Paul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Gordon

Take Steph Curry and Klay Thompson away from the Warriors.

Now take Blake away from the Clippers and tell me that CP3 stays.

...and no, indy didn't draft all their players...but they took this guy in the lottery:

Which is where we're not going to be if we keep winning playoff games. I've never said that it had to be done SOLELY through the lottery. I'm all for trades and free agency. I'm just not concerned about wins and the playoffs. Our primary concern should be getting our hands into the sweet spot of the draft and fishing up some of this kind of talent for ourselves. I might be wrong or speculating or stretching some things, but what you're alluding to isn't one of them.

You are helping me out here. Horford is just as elite at his position as George, Granger, Thompson, and Blake. Horfords performance last season was better than both Blake and Thompson.

There were only four players in the NBA last season that averaged at least 17 ppg and 10 rebounds. Is that is not elite enough for you? The four were:

Dwight Howard

Kevin Love

David Lee

Al Horford

And Blake was not one of them. You are arguing for me, I appreciate it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Buzzard

[Wretch]

I bet CP3 stays if there's no Griffin cause they would be able to sign D12

So let me get this right...

You think the Clippers, who are the POSTER CHILD, for what you guys DON'T want to do, y'know losing, tanking, sucking, laughingstock, can't even MAKE the playoffs....who would have been a LOTTERY TEAM, would have lured D12 there? You think they would have even made the deal for CP3 without a reasonable chance they could resign him? That reasonable chance being...they had Blake and a chance to be special with those two...?

Surely.

Technically, they would have had the cap space...but that doesn't guarantee anything. Moreover, they don't have CP3 without a lottery pick to get him with in the first place. You guys are also conveniently forgetting that Chris Paul demanded a trade out of New Orleans and wanted to go to a contender. The deal doesn't get done because without Griffin, Paul tells the Hornets and the Clippers "Don't even think about it. I'm not resigning there either." Similarly to the Dwight drama....and you STILL need the team with the lottery asset, willing to give it up to make it happen.

You can't claim any part of the Clippers because you don't agree with anything they've done.

[AHF]

It is not blatantly wrong to say Dirk and Kobe won finals MVPs with the teams that drafted them anymore than counting our draft picks this season as Hawks picks.By my count:MJ drafted by Bulls - 6 finals mvps Isiah drafted by PistonsTimmy drafted by Spurs - 3 MVPsParker drafted by SpursWade drafted by HeatKobe drafted by Lakers - 2 MVP Pierce drafted by CelticsBillups not drafted by PistonsLebron not drafted by Heat 2 MVPShaq not drafted by LA 3 MVP Talk about a distinction without a difference. If it makes anyone feel better, you can say 80% of the finals MVPs were acquired by their teams before they ever played a game with another team and that might get over the notion that there is somehow a meaningful difference between saying Marbury was drafted by Minnesota and saying Minnesota acquired the draft rights to him.I may have left off names but this list has been posted numerous times without contradiction because people can play semantics but they can't argue that these players were free agents or nba players with a minute of experience who were acquired by trade with the notable exceptions of Lebron and Shaq - neither of whom is walking into our locker room.

Edited July 6, 2013 by AHF

[taz]

I think he would've gone to the clippers regardless LA>NO in terms of city life and sponsorship deals. The clippers could have easily been a strong franchise if not for their owner being a racist and turning off most players

Edited July 6, 2013 by taz

[Wretch]

You are helping me out here. Horford is just as elite at his position as George, Granger, Thompson, and Blake. Horfords performance last season was better than both Blake and Thompson.

There were only four players in the NBA last season that averaged at least 17 ppg and 10 rebounds. If that is not elite enough for you try this, the four were:

Dwight Howard

Kevin Love

David Lee

Al Horford

And Blake was not one of them.

You are arguing for me, I appreciate it.

So, which of our lottery picks will you be trading to get the kind of elite talent to pair with Horford? He's not going to cut it by himself. Or is that your point? That we should build around Al Horford?

Like I said homeslice, I'm done here. I've done this dance with dudes just like you, many times, during different eras, saying the exact same kind of thing, only to end up right where we are...where I said we would be.

Come see me with this in 4 years. I will totally eat the crow if you have any.

[Wretch]

I think he would've gone to the clippers regardless LA>NO in terms of city life and sponsorship deals. The clippers could have easily been a strong franchise if not for their owner being a racist and turning off most players

You are talking about the Clippers...the other laughing stock of the NBA only...these guys REALLY suck at drafting and REALLY suck at making the playoffs. The antithesis of what you guys want us to be... Chris Paul is not going there.

The whole idea is that the Clippers are giving up a lottery pick for him. You can really just stop right there, because you guys don't want those. But they give up that pick they need some kind of assurance that they have a shot at resigning him. Remember...he wanted out of New Orleans to go to a contender and flat out told them he wouldn't re-sign.

So, he goes to another shitty situation and just, "DOI SIGN ME UP! I'LL BRING DWIGHT!"

No. They had a shot because they had Blake - whom they drafted. They GOT CP3 because of Gordon - whom they drafted.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wretch

[taz]

I think alot of the problems with the clippers can be traced back to them having.a racist owner plain and simple. You cut him out of the mix they would've been a top tier organization for years now

[AHF]

You are talking about the Clippers...the other laughing stock of the NBA only...these guys REALLY suck at drafting and REALLY suck at making the playoffs. The antithesis of what you guys want us to be... Chris Paul is not going there. The whole idea is that the Clippers are giving up a lottery pick for him. You can really just stop right there, because you guys don't want those. But they give up that pick they need some kind of assurance that they have a shot at resigning him. Remember...he wanted out of New Orleans to go to a contender and flat out told them he wouldn't re-sign. So, he goes to another shitty situation and just, "DOI SIGN ME UP! I'LL BRING DWIGHT!" No. They had a shot because they had Blake - whom they drafted. They GOT CP3 because of Gordon - whom they drafted.

This is the truth. Lottery assets to acquire and retain him. The Celtics are now taking this approach. They are acquiring picks and tanking and will only try to land big players at earliest after they have lined up a high pick next season.

[APE]

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[Diesel]

Diesel - being incompetent doesn't lead to championships but even the crap job of drafting, FA and trades that BK did led to the kind of success a Horford/Millsap team will enjoy.

It's chess not checkers....

IF we don't get a good Big, A Horford/Milsap team only serves one purpose (In My mind) creating tradable players. So for this season, it doesn't matter where we end up as long as we create players who are able to get back their value in trade. That's all. Again, the Houston Rocket playbook is to use position and performance to get what you really want.

Let's look at it:

Feb 18, 2010...Deadline.

Rockets Receive

G Kevin Martin, F Jordan Hill, F Jared Jefferies, F/C Hilton Armstrong, Knicks' 2011 first-round draft pick (Top 1 Protected), and Knicks' 2012 first-round draft pick (Top 5 Protected)

Knicks Receive

F Tracy McGrady, G Sergio Rodriguez

Kings Receive

F Carl Landry, F Joey Dorsey, and G Larry Hughes

Look at the work done by Houston here. They got Kevin Martin for Tracy McGrady.

McGrady was often injured and on the last year of his contract. NY needed cap relief for a run at Melo. The Kings were just there.

Well, let me use their analysis:

I think the Kings did a good job. It was definitely time to finally move Kevin Martin to a contending team, and they got quite a bit for him while they could. Carl Landry will make a huge difference and will be part of a terrific tandem with PG Tyreke Evans. With the nucleus of Landry and Evans and the cap space in this deal, the team could be special with something done in the summer.

However,that trade netted Martin who they flipped for Harden. Who they used to get Dwight.

Why can't we do the same??

Because we want to rid ourselves of all assets in hopes of tanking into a rigged lottery... OK.

[Diesel]

You keep saying tanking, but if you're following the "win without losing" strategy, then you're not getting "Timmy."

...and you cite Parker and ignore the odds of finding that kind of talent outside of the lottery...while you condemn lottery odds.

Wait a minute Wretch..

YOu can't have it every way.

We (your Atlanta Hawks) passed up on Parker too. We took Tinsley. The point is that player evaluation is more important than where you pick. It's the difference between Kobe and 12 other jokers in front of him. It's the difference between Chris Paul and Marvin Williams. The Spurs evaluated the talent very expertly and got Parker late in the draft. The Spurs were 58 and 24 the year they got Parker. The lost to the Lakers in the WCF the year that they got Tony Parker. Our hope is that we have a team that can evaluate players.

[Diesel]

The concern for a club like ours is not competing or winning. This will net us NOTHING. The primary concern should be acquiring assets with high potential.

We're not doing that. We'll be fielding a competitive team, rearranged, every 2 seasons....hoping for a free agent miracle.

Here's the problem we are having in communication Wretch.

Some of us are saying: Let's not throw away all of our assets trying to tank for better draft position.

What it seems like you're saying is that we will win meaningless games and won't be in position to get better draft picks that could be superstars AND our Assets will be meaningless.

Here's the problem. You assume that the players we get will have no value in trade. Nor will we have the ability to trade up using our assets. I could be on board with tanking if we didn't give up our tradable assets. When the Spurs got Duncan. He came back to play with Sean Elliot, David Robinson, and a few other players I believe Mario Elloit and Avery.... It just so happens that they were a hurt team that limped into the draft lottery and because Stern didn't want Boston to get the 1 or 2 pick, San Anton moved from a 7th worst record to receiving the first pick.

Yes, Duncan was a dynasty. However, the Spurs lucked into getting him.

There are teams that tank every year and they do it by getting rid of all their assets and swinging for the fences. For most teams that do that they never have success.

[Diesel]

This is the truth. Lottery assets to acquire and retain him.The Celtics are now taking this approach. They are acquiring picks and tanking and will only try to land big players at earliest after they have lined up a high pick next season.

The Celtics haven't given up Rondo?

Here's the real truth about the Cs. They are not just tanking, first and foremost they were getting max value for players who were beyond their prime and making lots of money.

The Celtics will have several picks and money over the next few years. They are setting themselves up to be players in everything and they still have an allstar quality PG.

In other words, they haven't given up all their assets on this gamble.

[Watchman]

I don't know what his point is... In most cases the draft plays a key part in a championship team. With just about everyone other than Detroit and the Lakers. Even in the Lakers case they got Kobe in the draft.

No, they didn't. They got Kobe via trade with Charlotte.

[Watchman]

One thing to remind ourselves is how difficult it is to build a championship level team. It seems like 5 teams have won it all in the past twenty years. A lot of them also make a huge financial commitment to their franchise, ie spend whatever it takes. But most tend to draft a franchise player, and then sign or trade for a 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, elite level talent.

Lakers draft Kobe and add Shaq, later adding Gasol.

Heat draft Wade and add Shaq, now Lebron

Celtics draft Pierce and add Garnett and Allen

Dallas drafts Nowitzki and Mark Cuban is trying to trade and pay for guys all the time to go with Dirk

Spurs are about the only team that got their top players exclusively through the draft

What the drafted franchise players indicate is you don't need to get a top 3 lottery pick, but someone in the top ten. I think AHF made the point best by saying most Finals MVPs were drafted by their team.

In short we don't spend enough, we still need to draft our franchise player to build around, but we don't have to be so bad that we are one of the worst 5 teams. We also could acquire a lottery pick, but we do need to draft our guy some how.

Charlotte drafted Kobe, who refused to play for them, so they traded him to Los Angeles. They did not draft kobe.

[Watchman]

Actually, this brings up a good point: we need to add "your lottery pick may refuse to play for you because your franchise is so abysmal" to the reasons not to tank.

Which is exactly the reason LA ended up with Kobe. Kobe didn't want to play with a losing franchise. He held Charlotte hostage until they traded him to LA. Seems people like to re-write history to prove their points.

[yungsta]

charlotte had no interest in kobe they drafted him to trade to the lakers. Think kawhi leonard to the spurs.

[Buzzard]

So, which of our lottery picks will you be trading to get the kind of elite talent to pair with Horford? He's not going to cut it by himself. Or is that your point? That we should build around Al Horford?

Like I said homeslice, I'm done here. I've done this dance with dudes just like you, many times, during different eras, saying the exact same kind of thing, only to end up right where we are...where I said we would be.

Come see me with this in 4 years. I will totally eat the crow if you have any.

If you are betting that we don't win a championship, I get ya. You could have bet that on all 30 teams over the last decade and half and won 24 times. The odds are in your favor to be right and I guess that is what's important to you.

I am talking about building around Horford. Just as everyone else tries to build around the best player (s) they drafted. Nothing new here and as the past shows, it does not work out more times than it does. But I like Horford and I like Ferry; so I am content for the next two or three years to see what happens.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Buzzard

[Wretch]

If you are betting that we don't win a championship, I get ya. You could have bet that on all 30 teams over the last decade and half and won 24 times. The odds are in your favor to be right and I guess that is what's important to you.

I am talking about building around Horford. Just as everyone else tries to build around the best player (s) they drafted. Nothing new here and as the past shows, it does not work out more times than it does. But I like Horford and I like Ferry; so I am content for the next two or three years to see what happens.

*sigh*

Shooting for the championship is an unrealistic goal if you do not have a championship roster. Take that nonsense elsewhere because that's not what I'm getting at. What I AM telling you is...

- The ASG are of the belief that just because you make the playoffs and win basketball games that the fans should just come out and support you. They believe this makes you a winner. They believe that the ultimate goal is to simply remain competitive. They brought in Danny Ferry, who shares their ideas, and they quietly took a back seat. Other than having a smarter person in the front office trying to maintain a competitive team, and new B and C list players to replace the old ones, I don't think anything has changed.

- We are not going to be contenders in two years by adding "hard working" spare parts. Dumars did it once in Detroit. Most teams draft something solid, build around it, or trade it for a cornerstone.

- If we keep this course and we keep adding these spare parts, we will be in this exact same situation in 2 years with an 8 year playoff streak...and we will be no closer to contention than we are right now. Only then, we'll be worried about losing Al Horford.

- If DF is in charge, he will reload it and try it again exactly the same way...and we will rinse and repeat unless you find a superstar in the late first round or we manage to lure a top free agent here. Personally, I don't understand how those odds are considered any better than fishing in the lottery...but whatever.

- If and when all this happens, you will quietly rethink what we just went through and someone else will take your place telling me the exact same thing your saying because I have heard this same line of thinking before. Exactly the same way. It just doesn't work dude.

If I'm wrong, again, feed me crow. I will change my avatar to a crow and my title to "Crow Eater" for 3 months. :)

PS - I ***LOVE*** Al Horford, but I would not build a team around him.

[Wretch]

And as for getting that special free agent...your guess is as good as mine as to whether it'll actually happen. But this off-season was also painfully familiar and my gut says, don't hold your breath.

It really should tell you guys something how this shook out...